Friday 26th July 2024 (2)
I hear Shar saying that she learned from Tony Robbins that she didn’t have to believe her beliefs. I feel like I would have been able to get with that in my 20s or 30s, or even some of my 40s, but nowadays it seems like the beliefs are somewhat beyond the opinions of the seemingly rational surface personality; it doesn’t seem to matter what “I” believe or find reasonable; certain beliefs and feelings just seem to be held and I don’t know how to un-believe them. Anyway …
So, I was looking for what I might be holding onto and I felt into a little boy who feels like he has never been loved in this life and doesn’t want to give everyone up - doesn’t want to give up the possibility of being loved as a person in a normal human way. He is afraid that awakening will leave him even more alone and lonely than he currently is - that he will be left isolated in an empty place with no hope of love or connection in the universe. So, there is a kind of resistance here, possibly. A part of me wants to try to stay connected to people here, and to look forward to possible connection with people here - so the feeling of being fully present on my own feels like giving up all possibility of love or connection or safety or happiness forever.
Of course, I can’t find this part in my next self-inquiry session. But I do notice the feeling of me. And, closing my eyes, I ask if I can find any border between the feeling of me in the body and the rest of the sensations, and even the hearing and the seen - and there is no border. But there is a belief that there is a me here, somehow, even though there is no evidence for where that me is, separate from other sensations. There is just a belief being held in contradiction to the evidence. So I look for the thought that underpins the belief. And I wonder why that thought needs to be believed.
I also look for the thought that says that I must believe the thoughts. That is quite an intense one. It just sits there belligerently stating that it must be believed and that’s the end of it. It has a kind of “you’ve got no choice” vibe about it, like a real confidence that there’s nothing I can do about it. I feel like I should try going into the energy behind that belief the next time.
Overcoming Doubt
- oconnordon
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:40 am
Re: Overcoming Doubt
Saturday 27th July 2024
I decided to experiment with taking a second tablet when I wake up early so that I get a better and longer sleep and don’t get completely tied up in negative thinking for the whole day. It didn’t completely prevent the negative thinking and sadness but it has helped a lot. I didn’t get up until 9.30 but then I started doing some TRE and did self-inquiry along with it for half an hour. Then I went downstairs and continued with the self-inquiry. Asking “What am I that is not a thought?” … and noticing the next thought and the next thought. I’ve been noticing the thoughts out loud for most of the morning, just as an experiment. They come so fast, so fast, so fast: over and over and over and over again telling me I’m wrong, wrong, wrong; this will never work; I’m doing it wrong; I’m confused; I’m distracted; I’m confused; I’m distracted; I’m wrong; I’m confused; I don’t know what I’m even thinking; I’m confused; I’m doing it wrong … and on and on and on, at break-neck speed, for an hour or more. Every now and then I stop and ask what am I without a thought and try to step back to that and notice. And sometimes the space of that is obvious for a few moments. And then doubts come, so I name them as thoughts, over and over and over. And then I ask a question again: what am I? And maybe it stops for a bit and maybe it doesn’t. The thoughts are torrential and they don’t stop or slow down. They actually intensify. I notice that when I get close to something that’s more like an identity or a linch-pin belief, then the distractions come thick and fast, with lots of emotional content, to take me away from that. So I name those as distractions and go back to naming the thoughts as thoughts.
After a while, the whole thing is so exhausting and confusing that I can’t tell if I’m thinking or not. But I’m used to distractions by now. You should go for a run; you should watch a video; you should work out a timetable for the day; you should do your Primal Trust; there must be someone you should text; sitting on the sofa is bad for you, no wonder you can’t concentrate. So I go back and back and back to the thoughts and keep on naming them. Even still, it is exhausting, so I get out the EMDR sound therapy app to see if it will help process some of the emotional stuff and confusion. I sit for one of the twenty minute sessions and I’m in a feeling of confusion for the majority of it. This is very unusual. Usually the sound therapy app helps things to get processed so they tend to change pretty quickly. Usually I sink into whatever confusion or fear, or whatever, and it changes and intensifies and gets quite extreme and then breaks or eases. But today it’s just this constant, even, confusion, seemingly holding me. I stop naming the thoughts and just sink into it. It seems to last consistently for ten or fifteen minutes. Usually, something like this would change after about thirty seconds.
What I noticed just before this was when I asked “Who am I?”, just after the “I”, there was a response: NO, and then blankness and confusion. I noticed it over and over. When I ask Who am I, I get the response NO, wrong; and then the confusion comes and bends me away from what I want to focus on. I have tried saying hello to whatever part is operating here and asking what it needs, etc. I have a good idea that it’s just one of the parts that seeks to prevent me from acting spontaneously and keeping me safe from my Dad. But I haven’t managed to communicate with it yet.
Actually, I just remember that even before this I had also noticed some of the mechanism related to believing thoughts. There is a fear that if I don’t think and try to anticipate the future, then something dangerous will come. (No big news there.). And the belief that I MUST keep doing this; I must keep paying attention to these thoughts; I must anticipate the next thought because it might signal real danger; it is essential to anticipate these future-focused thoughts and believe them; it is dangerous if I don’t; something bad will happen if I don’t remain vigilant. I know: I’ve seen this all before; but somehow it seemed a bit fresh before; something more immediate about the belief that I must anticipate the next fear thought and I then must believe that and act on it if I can.
Back to it again now.
I decided to experiment with taking a second tablet when I wake up early so that I get a better and longer sleep and don’t get completely tied up in negative thinking for the whole day. It didn’t completely prevent the negative thinking and sadness but it has helped a lot. I didn’t get up until 9.30 but then I started doing some TRE and did self-inquiry along with it for half an hour. Then I went downstairs and continued with the self-inquiry. Asking “What am I that is not a thought?” … and noticing the next thought and the next thought. I’ve been noticing the thoughts out loud for most of the morning, just as an experiment. They come so fast, so fast, so fast: over and over and over and over again telling me I’m wrong, wrong, wrong; this will never work; I’m doing it wrong; I’m confused; I’m distracted; I’m confused; I’m distracted; I’m wrong; I’m confused; I don’t know what I’m even thinking; I’m confused; I’m doing it wrong … and on and on and on, at break-neck speed, for an hour or more. Every now and then I stop and ask what am I without a thought and try to step back to that and notice. And sometimes the space of that is obvious for a few moments. And then doubts come, so I name them as thoughts, over and over and over. And then I ask a question again: what am I? And maybe it stops for a bit and maybe it doesn’t. The thoughts are torrential and they don’t stop or slow down. They actually intensify. I notice that when I get close to something that’s more like an identity or a linch-pin belief, then the distractions come thick and fast, with lots of emotional content, to take me away from that. So I name those as distractions and go back to naming the thoughts as thoughts.
After a while, the whole thing is so exhausting and confusing that I can’t tell if I’m thinking or not. But I’m used to distractions by now. You should go for a run; you should watch a video; you should work out a timetable for the day; you should do your Primal Trust; there must be someone you should text; sitting on the sofa is bad for you, no wonder you can’t concentrate. So I go back and back and back to the thoughts and keep on naming them. Even still, it is exhausting, so I get out the EMDR sound therapy app to see if it will help process some of the emotional stuff and confusion. I sit for one of the twenty minute sessions and I’m in a feeling of confusion for the majority of it. This is very unusual. Usually the sound therapy app helps things to get processed so they tend to change pretty quickly. Usually I sink into whatever confusion or fear, or whatever, and it changes and intensifies and gets quite extreme and then breaks or eases. But today it’s just this constant, even, confusion, seemingly holding me. I stop naming the thoughts and just sink into it. It seems to last consistently for ten or fifteen minutes. Usually, something like this would change after about thirty seconds.
What I noticed just before this was when I asked “Who am I?”, just after the “I”, there was a response: NO, and then blankness and confusion. I noticed it over and over. When I ask Who am I, I get the response NO, wrong; and then the confusion comes and bends me away from what I want to focus on. I have tried saying hello to whatever part is operating here and asking what it needs, etc. I have a good idea that it’s just one of the parts that seeks to prevent me from acting spontaneously and keeping me safe from my Dad. But I haven’t managed to communicate with it yet.
Actually, I just remember that even before this I had also noticed some of the mechanism related to believing thoughts. There is a fear that if I don’t think and try to anticipate the future, then something dangerous will come. (No big news there.). And the belief that I MUST keep doing this; I must keep paying attention to these thoughts; I must anticipate the next thought because it might signal real danger; it is essential to anticipate these future-focused thoughts and believe them; it is dangerous if I don’t; something bad will happen if I don’t remain vigilant. I know: I’ve seen this all before; but somehow it seemed a bit fresh before; something more immediate about the belief that I must anticipate the next fear thought and I then must believe that and act on it if I can.
Back to it again now.
Re: Overcoming Doubt
Hi Don,
Can that to which seemingly thoughts are speaking to be found here now in this very moment?
If YES? - where exactly?
if NO - what knows that?
Sending love and seeing you later.
Luchana
right... let's try with the question:And then I’m distracted again and I forget what I’m doing. And then I go back to it. And then every kind enticing distraction: why don’t you watch that video; why don’t you go for a run; you should check your work emails; you should do some TRE; how about getting distracted by this memory, that memory; why not think about this person that you like. And then I come back. And then it’s self-recrimination that I got distracted. And then it’s like: who got distracted? And then I look quite hard for that and some intense fear comes up and knocks me back. And then I ask: is that real fear or just a thought of fear? Why does presence sometimes feel peaceful but when I intentionally search for the last shreds of identity, I get terrified? What is it that is going to die, anyway? It’s just a thought, right? Am I just making up all of this drama?
Can that to which seemingly thoughts are speaking to be found here now in this very moment?
If YES? - where exactly?
if NO - what knows that?
Sending love and seeing you later.
Luchana
If you wonder what it’s like living nonduality in everyday life?
https://awakeningawakened.com/2022/10/2 ... onduality/
https://awakeningawakened.com/2022/10/2 ... onduality/
- oconnordon
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:40 am
Re: Overcoming Doubt
That which can be seen is unable to look;
That which looks cannot be seen.
I’ve been attempting to stay in presence and observe what can be seen throughout the morning. There is so much confusion and distraction here, it’s hard to focus. Over and over, I remind myself that what I can see can’t be looking and that what is looking can’t be seen. And I look for what is looking and find only objects: body, mind, thoughts, feelings, confusion, doubt. I remind myself that there is something noticing that but it remains just a theory. Somehow, there is a feeling of confusion in the head and there is a feeling of identity with that and I feel like I’m in a story the whole time that I can’t escape from. I guess this is the nature of my practice for months: just keep plugging away at it and watching more non-duality videos until something clicks and a small glimpse comes from nowhere. It’s not that I need it explained to me again, it’s more like there’s a physical process in my brain that prevents clarity. I sit here for session after session just asserting to myself: there is awareness right now; there is looking right now. And the overall feeling is: no, no, no; I’m confused; I’m not seeing it. It’s very frustrating. I try to surrender into the confusion and frustration but it feels like I am virtually falling asleep. It’s like I’m cognitively impaired!
Re: Overcoming Doubt
Hi Don,
If yes - where is exactly?
And how it is experienced?
Sending love and seeing you later..
Luchana
Right! We are looking to se IF there is something noticing?And I look for what is looking and find only objects: body, mind, thoughts, feelings, confusion, doubt. I remind myself that there is something noticing that but it remains just a theory.
If yes - where is exactly?
And how it is experienced?
Sending love and seeing you later..
Luchana
If you wonder what it’s like living nonduality in everyday life?
https://awakeningawakened.com/2022/10/2 ... onduality/
https://awakeningawakened.com/2022/10/2 ... onduality/
- oconnordon
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:40 am
Re: Overcoming Doubt
Monday 5th August 2024
I went to see Kyle the hypnosis guy. He was really good. I came across a number of thoughts or beliefs that are very strongly held onto. Like (1) I REALLY know that what happened to me when I was 1 or 1 and a half means that I’m worthless and that I wasn’t connected and didn’t feel loved or safe, so I can’t feel those things now. There is kind of confusion around this like I don’t know what it really means - but possibly that doesn’t mean that I can’t drop it. Like (2) I REALLY need to keep telling people about this so that they understand me and recognise how hard my life has been. There is real resentment around this and an unwillingness to give it up. Like (3) the power of these thoughts / beliefs is so strong that I can’t prevent myself from believing them. Like (4) I feel like even more of a victim telling the story that I can’t stop believing my own thoughts - or, even worse, that I don’t want to. I feel like the guy in the movie Memento, like I’ve seen the truth of things but I will hide that truth from myself again and tomorrow I will pretend that I don’t know the truth and I will continue complaining about the problem that I can’t solve - when in fact all it is is that I’m believing some thoughts that I believe I can’t stop believing.
It did bring some thoughts and beliefs out in high relief, though. And the job of continuing not to believe them seems like what’s needed now. Basically just asserting that I don’t believe them, rather than wondering why I do, which just gives them more air time.
And, I’m now just noticing another one of the beliefs that goes: I can’t do this; this will never work for me. There was a strong repetition of “this won’t work” during the hypnosis session and I had to keep ahead of it. I’m so used to things not working that I can’t believe that they will. But if it is seen that the mere belief of a thought that it won’t work has prevented things from working for a long time, there’s then a strong resistance to believing that that can be easily dropped - otherwise I will look really foolish for causing my own suffering for years and years by just believing a thought. The option to just stop believing that seems ridiculous. It must be more complicated than that, mustn’t it?! Otherwise I feel really foolish and my whole tale of woe might not be true at all! Haha.
The strong feeling I have now after it is: (A) there are some strongly-held thoughts there that I can see more clearly now but it will be hard to keep on top of them and I don’t know yet how not to believe them and (B) I feel guilty / foolish for being the cause of my own suffering if it is so obviously because I am just holding onto beliefs that I could just decide to drop.
While I was in the hypnosis session, I felt a strong desire to go with the direction being pointed to by Kyle. There were strong doubts but I wanted to push them aside and keep dropping the identity who holds the beliefs, if I could. One of the doubts, however, was that my experience doesn’t necessarily change if I don’t think about it or if I choose to believe something different about it. In fact, my experience of not feeling connected to people, or loved or safe, that has been somewhat known to me all my life but has only become really obvious in the past year. What I was doing all along, in fact, was believing the opposite of that experience via thought - asserting to myself that I am loved and I am connected and I am safe, so it all must be fine. But that didn’t change the experience; it just covered it up; like a form of gas lighting. Still, though, I did notice the strong pull of thought during the hypnosis session, so I may be able to focus more clearly on letting that go now.
I went to see Kyle the hypnosis guy. He was really good. I came across a number of thoughts or beliefs that are very strongly held onto. Like (1) I REALLY know that what happened to me when I was 1 or 1 and a half means that I’m worthless and that I wasn’t connected and didn’t feel loved or safe, so I can’t feel those things now. There is kind of confusion around this like I don’t know what it really means - but possibly that doesn’t mean that I can’t drop it. Like (2) I REALLY need to keep telling people about this so that they understand me and recognise how hard my life has been. There is real resentment around this and an unwillingness to give it up. Like (3) the power of these thoughts / beliefs is so strong that I can’t prevent myself from believing them. Like (4) I feel like even more of a victim telling the story that I can’t stop believing my own thoughts - or, even worse, that I don’t want to. I feel like the guy in the movie Memento, like I’ve seen the truth of things but I will hide that truth from myself again and tomorrow I will pretend that I don’t know the truth and I will continue complaining about the problem that I can’t solve - when in fact all it is is that I’m believing some thoughts that I believe I can’t stop believing.
It did bring some thoughts and beliefs out in high relief, though. And the job of continuing not to believe them seems like what’s needed now. Basically just asserting that I don’t believe them, rather than wondering why I do, which just gives them more air time.
And, I’m now just noticing another one of the beliefs that goes: I can’t do this; this will never work for me. There was a strong repetition of “this won’t work” during the hypnosis session and I had to keep ahead of it. I’m so used to things not working that I can’t believe that they will. But if it is seen that the mere belief of a thought that it won’t work has prevented things from working for a long time, there’s then a strong resistance to believing that that can be easily dropped - otherwise I will look really foolish for causing my own suffering for years and years by just believing a thought. The option to just stop believing that seems ridiculous. It must be more complicated than that, mustn’t it?! Otherwise I feel really foolish and my whole tale of woe might not be true at all! Haha.
The strong feeling I have now after it is: (A) there are some strongly-held thoughts there that I can see more clearly now but it will be hard to keep on top of them and I don’t know yet how not to believe them and (B) I feel guilty / foolish for being the cause of my own suffering if it is so obviously because I am just holding onto beliefs that I could just decide to drop.
While I was in the hypnosis session, I felt a strong desire to go with the direction being pointed to by Kyle. There were strong doubts but I wanted to push them aside and keep dropping the identity who holds the beliefs, if I could. One of the doubts, however, was that my experience doesn’t necessarily change if I don’t think about it or if I choose to believe something different about it. In fact, my experience of not feeling connected to people, or loved or safe, that has been somewhat known to me all my life but has only become really obvious in the past year. What I was doing all along, in fact, was believing the opposite of that experience via thought - asserting to myself that I am loved and I am connected and I am safe, so it all must be fine. But that didn’t change the experience; it just covered it up; like a form of gas lighting. Still, though, I did notice the strong pull of thought during the hypnosis session, so I may be able to focus more clearly on letting that go now.
Re: Overcoming Doubt
Hi Don.
wow, this session sound really like something good...Thank you for sharing that with me.
love that.
Now notice how the one for whom It wont work is experienced right here right now in this very moment?
As an image?
A sensation?
or ?
Sending love,
Luchana
wow, this session sound really like something good...Thank you for sharing that with me.
YES, this is the key so to speak. Asserting rather than wondering!It did bring some thoughts and beliefs out in high relief, though. And the job of continuing not to believe them seems like what’s needed now. Basically just asserting that I don’t believe them, rather than wondering why I do, which just gives them more air time.
love that.
Very common for all of us.And, I’m now just noticing another one of the beliefs that goes: I can’t do this; this will never work for me.
Now notice how the one for whom It wont work is experienced right here right now in this very moment?
As an image?
A sensation?
or ?
Sending love,
Luchana
If you wonder what it’s like living nonduality in everyday life?
https://awakeningawakened.com/2022/10/2 ... onduality/
https://awakeningawakened.com/2022/10/2 ... onduality/
- oconnordon
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:40 am
Re: Overcoming Doubt
Now notice how the one for whom It won’t work is experienced right here right now in this very moment?
As an image?
A sensation?
or ?
As you know, I often try to look for “the next thought” and I find it very difficult to do. This morning I was noticing the hyper-vigilance and noticed that there is what seems like a thought activity looking, looking, looking for something that might go wrong or might have gone wrong. It is looking in sights, sounds and memory, and it is also trying to predict what will happen next. It is also assuming that I have done something wrong or I am just about to. So there is a constant thought activity flickering all the time: not really fully-formed thoughts, just half thoughts glancing on things I see and hear and think. And alongside that there is a continuous self-criticism. Each of these - the hyper-vigilance and the self-criticism - are like a feeling plus a stream of thoughts bound together. So it feels like there is something going on there all the time. And the general conclusion of the hyper-vigilance activity is that I don’t know what’s going on right now, but it’s bound to be bad in some way and it will be bad for me or reflect badly on me. And the conclusion of the self-criticism is that I am wrong in some way, or in every way, or in ways that I haven’t even seen yet. I find myself concluding that I’m wrong after almost every social interaction, even if they went well.
The fact that there is such energy in the thought activity to find something that’s going wrong or that I’m doing wrong makes it very hard or impossible to find “the next thought” because there are so many half-formed thoughts going on all the time. Plus, because there is a feeling associated with both activities - anxiety and wrongness - they feel like they are permanently there. There is no gap between thoughts to wait for the next thought, only the general feeling that I don’t know what’s going on ant that I’m getting it all wrong, anyway.
So, to take a backward step from that takes some energy - or some relaxation - because it is so intense and also so familiar. The last few days I’ve been a bit calmer than usual, so I’ve seen it a bit more clearly.
I’m just reflecting this now because the way I saw this mechanism today made sense of how difficult I find it to do the exercise of waiting for the next thought and why it feels like there is always a stream of thought going on and I don’t fully know what the thoughts are. It made me feel a bit better because I always feel like a failure for not being able to do the exercise - not being able to wait for the next thought - and not being able to not believe thoughts, because the assumption / feeling that I’m getting it all wrong is here all the time.
I’ll keep looking at it.
I feel like if I can take thought activity or thought energy all in one go, rather than trying to look for one thought at a time, it works better for me. I hate to feel like I’ve failed at Angelo’s “wait for the next thought” exercise, though! But it’s much harder to do that than to see if I can notice thought energy or grasping or resistance. It’s easier to stand back from those as sort of energy forms than to try and see what the actual thought is. So far, anyway.
Re: Overcoming Doubt
Hi Don,
Notice - is a thought needed for that?
Where the clarity lands?
Sending love,
Luchana
Right.. yes. it is a matter of seen it each time and you can trust that each time is gonna be clearer.So, to take a backward step from that takes some energy - or some relaxation - because it is so intense and also so familiar. The last few days I’ve been a bit calmer than usual, so I’ve seen it a bit more clearly.
Notice - is a thought needed for that?
Where the clarity lands?
Sending love,
Luchana
If you wonder what it’s like living nonduality in everyday life?
https://awakeningawakened.com/2022/10/2 ... onduality/
https://awakeningawakened.com/2022/10/2 ... onduality/
- oconnordon
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:40 am
Re: Overcoming Doubt
Wednesday 14th August 2024
I have been less distracted during various meditation sessions. It seems like there is presence here right now. It is not obvious that there is a here where I am looking from and a there where the traffic is going past on the motorway. There is no here and there, no perspective. There is a body and seemingly a mind and in there there is a feeling of me. There is some thinking which feels like it is about me. But that is quite a small activity. The locus of that thinking about me seems to shift and even disappear sometimes. It’s like I remember it back into existence again over and over. But there is an assumption that it is here continuously. It is a belief that is contradicted by the evidence and yet the belief persists.
This experience right now can be perceived without needing a thought to confirm it. In fact, a thought would mostly distract from it.
I have been less distracted during various meditation sessions. It seems like there is presence here right now. It is not obvious that there is a here where I am looking from and a there where the traffic is going past on the motorway. There is no here and there, no perspective. There is a body and seemingly a mind and in there there is a feeling of me. There is some thinking which feels like it is about me. But that is quite a small activity. The locus of that thinking about me seems to shift and even disappear sometimes. It’s like I remember it back into existence again over and over. But there is an assumption that it is here continuously. It is a belief that is contradicted by the evidence and yet the belief persists.
This experience right now can be perceived without needing a thought to confirm it. In fact, a thought would mostly distract from it.
- oconnordon
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:40 am
Re: Overcoming Doubt
Thursday 15th August 2024
I have been finding it easier to meditate calmly over the past few days and remain more present than usual with fewer thoughts than I’ve ever been used to. I do sit there, however, wondering what to do next. There appears to be no particular insight that would lead me to abandon believing in thoughts or feeling like they’re about me.
On Wednesday evening I did a yoga / somatics session online and experienced a lot of distracting thought during it as well as a lot of emotion. This morning, I have the usual sad, lonely, frightened vibe since I woke up, and I have noted that one of my bank accounts is shorter of funds than I thought, so I am extra anxious about that. I feel quite emotional and sad and anxious and incapable of doing anything useful! I am listening to one of the Primal Trust videos - which I feel like I’ve fallen badly behind on - and I’m feeling into the body and feel anxiety throughout.
On the one hand, it feels like meditation of any kind would be bypassing this state, these feelings. On the other hand, it seems like these feelings are the result of believing stories, so I should just practice and ignore them. Usually, at some point during the day, I remember that I have to stand up to the feelings and take charge and be the “adult in the room” and work with the feelings and stories. For some time, however, it feels like these are real circumstances (being alone, being short of money, struggling with trauma and low self-esteem, etc.) and I can’t just wish myself out of them by doing another meditation about the supposed nature of reality. So, yeah, there’s a real feeling of reality about all of these feelings and external circumstances.
So, while it’s been easier to sit in presence for the past few days, it also feels as if presence is like I a space I can inhabit, but only if all of the real issues in the world have been taken care of first. That’s very much the kind of belief my parents would have had: meditation is a kind of hobby; but the real world and paying bills is real.
I have been finding it easier to meditate calmly over the past few days and remain more present than usual with fewer thoughts than I’ve ever been used to. I do sit there, however, wondering what to do next. There appears to be no particular insight that would lead me to abandon believing in thoughts or feeling like they’re about me.
On Wednesday evening I did a yoga / somatics session online and experienced a lot of distracting thought during it as well as a lot of emotion. This morning, I have the usual sad, lonely, frightened vibe since I woke up, and I have noted that one of my bank accounts is shorter of funds than I thought, so I am extra anxious about that. I feel quite emotional and sad and anxious and incapable of doing anything useful! I am listening to one of the Primal Trust videos - which I feel like I’ve fallen badly behind on - and I’m feeling into the body and feel anxiety throughout.
On the one hand, it feels like meditation of any kind would be bypassing this state, these feelings. On the other hand, it seems like these feelings are the result of believing stories, so I should just practice and ignore them. Usually, at some point during the day, I remember that I have to stand up to the feelings and take charge and be the “adult in the room” and work with the feelings and stories. For some time, however, it feels like these are real circumstances (being alone, being short of money, struggling with trauma and low self-esteem, etc.) and I can’t just wish myself out of them by doing another meditation about the supposed nature of reality. So, yeah, there’s a real feeling of reality about all of these feelings and external circumstances.
So, while it’s been easier to sit in presence for the past few days, it also feels as if presence is like I a space I can inhabit, but only if all of the real issues in the world have been taken care of first. That’s very much the kind of belief my parents would have had: meditation is a kind of hobby; but the real world and paying bills is real.
Re: Overcoming Doubt
Hi Don,
yea.. beautiful.
Notice that working with feelings and stories is just seeing those as feeling and stories.
Nothing less, nothing more.
This doesn't mean we should stop looking and emotional/trauma based stuff..
It is not bypassing to see stories as stories when the feeling which comes from that stories is being fully felt and released.
How this feels?
Sending much love,
Luchana
On the one hand, it feels like meditation of any kind would be bypassing this state, these feelings. On the other hand, it seems like these feelings are the result of believing stories, so I should just practice and ignore them. Usually, at some point during the day, I remember that I have to stand up to the feelings and take charge and be the “adult in the room” and work with the feelings and stories. For some time, however, it feels like these are real circumstances (being alone, being short of money, struggling with trauma and low self-esteem, etc.) and I can’t just wish myself out of them by doing another meditation about the supposed nature of reality. So, yeah, there’s a real feeling of reality about all of these feelings and external circumstances.
yea.. beautiful.
Notice that working with feelings and stories is just seeing those as feeling and stories.
Nothing less, nothing more.
This doesn't mean we should stop looking and emotional/trauma based stuff..
It is not bypassing to see stories as stories when the feeling which comes from that stories is being fully felt and released.
How this feels?
Sending much love,
Luchana
If you wonder what it’s like living nonduality in everyday life?
https://awakeningawakened.com/2022/10/2 ... onduality/
https://awakeningawakened.com/2022/10/2 ... onduality/
- oconnordon
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:40 am
Re: Overcoming Doubt
Today I noticed the first thought in the morning and the emotional reaction to it. It struck me that my whole day might be ruled by that one thought and that if I choose not to believe it, then I’ll be okay. It seemed quite clear then and I went back to sleep for a while and got up later.
Since then, I’ve done my usual TRE and breathwork and watched non-duality videos and sat and meditated with guided mediations and with my EMDR app; and done more breathwork and cut the grass and done more meditation.
I feel the most dejected I’ve felt in a long time. I can’t get the better of these thoughts. I keep thinking that I’m too screwed to wake up, that there is some form of trauma in my system that won’t let me settle, no matter what, that there is some level of attachment wound that won’t let me ever feel safe.
I’m watching Primal Trust videos and she’s talking about doing things you love to energise yourself and support your healing. I’m thinking: there’s no point to this; my whole problem is that I don’t enjoy anything. If enjoying things is the solution then there is no solution. If Primal Trust is the way forward for my awakening, then I’m screwed, because much of this stuff - parts work, inner child stuff, attachment wound stuff, etc., has been the subject of my therapy for nearly twenty years and it didn’t work. I turned to non-duality because nothing else worked. Now it appears that non-duality won’t work unless I calm down my nervous system and heal my trauma first.
And the kind of safety that I need to settle into awakening process could have come from a relationship, but that’s never going to work out now. So, I’m just going to sit here on the brink of nothingness with the body-mind holding me back because it doesn’t feel safe. So, it doesn’t matter how many bad things happen to me in my life or how much I give up or surrender, the body mind will continue to resist the final necessary steps, and I’ll just be stuck here in abject depression - surrendering to everything but not waking up.
I can’t get these Catch-22 thoughts out of my head all day. I can’t sit and be present for more than two seconds without all of this distraction coming in and dragging me away. Like the thoughts are saying: you’re trying to get somewhere and you’re following the wrong map. You need to re-evaluate what you’re doing. It’s a complete waste of time. You’re just stuck in a confused and identified place, pretending you’re meditating. That’s not going to lead you to awakening. Your trauma-infused system is going to prevent that by distracting you for the rest of your life. There is no hope that you will wake up like other people. The people who tell you you are making progress are projecting their own experience onto you. They do not see how you are stuck. You cannot even see it yourself. You are basically screwed and nothing is going to change. You will still be at this in two years or five years or ten years. There is no progress. Every piece of apparent progress is blocked by some distraction or confusion in the mind. The intention of the mind is to block awakening for the remainder of the life of this body.
Since then, I’ve done my usual TRE and breathwork and watched non-duality videos and sat and meditated with guided mediations and with my EMDR app; and done more breathwork and cut the grass and done more meditation.
I feel the most dejected I’ve felt in a long time. I can’t get the better of these thoughts. I keep thinking that I’m too screwed to wake up, that there is some form of trauma in my system that won’t let me settle, no matter what, that there is some level of attachment wound that won’t let me ever feel safe.
I’m watching Primal Trust videos and she’s talking about doing things you love to energise yourself and support your healing. I’m thinking: there’s no point to this; my whole problem is that I don’t enjoy anything. If enjoying things is the solution then there is no solution. If Primal Trust is the way forward for my awakening, then I’m screwed, because much of this stuff - parts work, inner child stuff, attachment wound stuff, etc., has been the subject of my therapy for nearly twenty years and it didn’t work. I turned to non-duality because nothing else worked. Now it appears that non-duality won’t work unless I calm down my nervous system and heal my trauma first.
And the kind of safety that I need to settle into awakening process could have come from a relationship, but that’s never going to work out now. So, I’m just going to sit here on the brink of nothingness with the body-mind holding me back because it doesn’t feel safe. So, it doesn’t matter how many bad things happen to me in my life or how much I give up or surrender, the body mind will continue to resist the final necessary steps, and I’ll just be stuck here in abject depression - surrendering to everything but not waking up.
I can’t get these Catch-22 thoughts out of my head all day. I can’t sit and be present for more than two seconds without all of this distraction coming in and dragging me away. Like the thoughts are saying: you’re trying to get somewhere and you’re following the wrong map. You need to re-evaluate what you’re doing. It’s a complete waste of time. You’re just stuck in a confused and identified place, pretending you’re meditating. That’s not going to lead you to awakening. Your trauma-infused system is going to prevent that by distracting you for the rest of your life. There is no hope that you will wake up like other people. The people who tell you you are making progress are projecting their own experience onto you. They do not see how you are stuck. You cannot even see it yourself. You are basically screwed and nothing is going to change. You will still be at this in two years or five years or ten years. There is no progress. Every piece of apparent progress is blocked by some distraction or confusion in the mind. The intention of the mind is to block awakening for the remainder of the life of this body.
- oconnordon
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:40 am
Re: Overcoming Doubt
Sunday 18th August 2024
Yesterday’s post was somewhat negative, you could say. But, reading it now, my reaction to it is not that it is not true but that it might be too much to write and expect someone else to read. Those thoughts are very prominent in my system, in my practice. It is hard to believe that progress is being made and that every glimpse is not being shut down by my system. Many days it is, anyway.
This morning I woke up with a lot of fear and hopelessness and aloneness, loneliness. It was quite dark. It was just those emotions on their own without the usual heartbreak story alongside. Like the heartbreak was just a trigger to show me what the feelings were underneath. After a few days of this kind of thing I often take one of my tablets, so I did this morning. Anyway, I was going to my cousins’ for lunch, so I wanted to be a bit less of a heavy trip for them.
So, by the time I got there, I was a little lighter in my system. So I could notice some of the heavy trip while not being fully pulled down by it. The feeling that everyone detests me at all times is very strong. It is not a series of critical thoughts - the thoughts come in to try to fix the situation - it is a visceral, intuitive feeling I have all the time, basically with everyone. Yeah, I basically feel at a gut level that everyone detests me and they are only putting up with me out of politeness. So I have to invent a personality to defend myself against everyone’s very likely rejection and anger at any moment.
Yeah, so, and there’s also a strong feeling of depression, hopelessness, stuckness - that comes from, or exists in parallel with, the feeling of worthlessness. It is like: I am so worthless that I can’t achieve anything and no-one will ever want to do anything with me, spend time with me, etc.
I took a second tablet on the way home. I’ve decided I’m going to take a few days’ break from this heavy trip now. Three days of it in a row is a lot. So, I was driving home from my cousins’ and feeling temporarily better because of the tablet, and I can see some of the possibilities in life, some of the ways that I get stuck in a whole story or feeling or reality that’s so heavy that I can’t see out of it. But just getting out on the road allows me to see that I’ve got totally stuck in a rut. And I was making some bucket list plans for my retirement: what I’d like to do, where I’d like to go, etc.
I know that there are other people who experience depression and self-criticism and social anxiety. But, yeah, it’s a heavy trip over here. I still don’t know how to get to the bottom of it, you know. I still don’t know how to get to the bottom of it. Every now and then I get some insights like today and things seem a bit more clear for a while. If what I’m looking at today is true - and I think it is, you know - then I am really in a very depressed state all the time - and I am really in a very shame-filled, fear-filled, worthless state all the time with people and in the world. I have just got so used to it that it’s normal. Well, it’s always been normal for me, so what do I have to compare it to? Well, I can kind of compare other people’s experience to mine. Or I can remember individual days during my life when I felt happy or confident.
Someone asked Samaneri Jayasara a question on her YouTube Live thing last night. They asked about dealing with a demon in your system and she said you bring your wisdom nature to it and heal it that way. I thought: what if the number one goal of the demon in your system is to prevent your wisdom nature from surfacing or expressing?
Yeah, seriously. I’m still looking for ways to do this. Whatever it takes to see through what is happening here.
I happened to listen to one of Vince’s meetings in the car today. YouTube played it for me. I haven’t gone to any for four or five weeks, I think. I should probably email him to tell him I’m okay. I feel a bit rude after going twice a week since Christmas to suddenly stop without a word. I just find the group meetings unhelpful right now. I’m sick of listening to myself complain about making no progress. Haha: that’s what I’m doing here too, isn’t it? But I just don’t want to do it in a group right now. So, I think of this as a good thing: I don’t feel so drawn to attend groups to make me feel better. Instead I’d prefer just to sit and notice what’s going on here. Usually, anyway. The past few days have been difficult.
Well, yeah, I heard Jenni explain to someone how to step back from their story and recognise that they are what is aware of it. And I thought: yeah, that’s what I try to do all day. There’s just an intense, almost angry, resistance to that. The confusion, the self-criticism, the negativity, the distraction - all of that - dragging me away from being aware - telling me I’m doing it wrong over and over. Oh, my God. It works better some days. But the past few days, it’s been intense. It’s hard to see out from under it. I don’t know what to do about it.
Yesterday’s post was somewhat negative, you could say. But, reading it now, my reaction to it is not that it is not true but that it might be too much to write and expect someone else to read. Those thoughts are very prominent in my system, in my practice. It is hard to believe that progress is being made and that every glimpse is not being shut down by my system. Many days it is, anyway.
This morning I woke up with a lot of fear and hopelessness and aloneness, loneliness. It was quite dark. It was just those emotions on their own without the usual heartbreak story alongside. Like the heartbreak was just a trigger to show me what the feelings were underneath. After a few days of this kind of thing I often take one of my tablets, so I did this morning. Anyway, I was going to my cousins’ for lunch, so I wanted to be a bit less of a heavy trip for them.
So, by the time I got there, I was a little lighter in my system. So I could notice some of the heavy trip while not being fully pulled down by it. The feeling that everyone detests me at all times is very strong. It is not a series of critical thoughts - the thoughts come in to try to fix the situation - it is a visceral, intuitive feeling I have all the time, basically with everyone. Yeah, I basically feel at a gut level that everyone detests me and they are only putting up with me out of politeness. So I have to invent a personality to defend myself against everyone’s very likely rejection and anger at any moment.
Yeah, so, and there’s also a strong feeling of depression, hopelessness, stuckness - that comes from, or exists in parallel with, the feeling of worthlessness. It is like: I am so worthless that I can’t achieve anything and no-one will ever want to do anything with me, spend time with me, etc.
I took a second tablet on the way home. I’ve decided I’m going to take a few days’ break from this heavy trip now. Three days of it in a row is a lot. So, I was driving home from my cousins’ and feeling temporarily better because of the tablet, and I can see some of the possibilities in life, some of the ways that I get stuck in a whole story or feeling or reality that’s so heavy that I can’t see out of it. But just getting out on the road allows me to see that I’ve got totally stuck in a rut. And I was making some bucket list plans for my retirement: what I’d like to do, where I’d like to go, etc.
I know that there are other people who experience depression and self-criticism and social anxiety. But, yeah, it’s a heavy trip over here. I still don’t know how to get to the bottom of it, you know. I still don’t know how to get to the bottom of it. Every now and then I get some insights like today and things seem a bit more clear for a while. If what I’m looking at today is true - and I think it is, you know - then I am really in a very depressed state all the time - and I am really in a very shame-filled, fear-filled, worthless state all the time with people and in the world. I have just got so used to it that it’s normal. Well, it’s always been normal for me, so what do I have to compare it to? Well, I can kind of compare other people’s experience to mine. Or I can remember individual days during my life when I felt happy or confident.
Someone asked Samaneri Jayasara a question on her YouTube Live thing last night. They asked about dealing with a demon in your system and she said you bring your wisdom nature to it and heal it that way. I thought: what if the number one goal of the demon in your system is to prevent your wisdom nature from surfacing or expressing?
Yeah, seriously. I’m still looking for ways to do this. Whatever it takes to see through what is happening here.
I happened to listen to one of Vince’s meetings in the car today. YouTube played it for me. I haven’t gone to any for four or five weeks, I think. I should probably email him to tell him I’m okay. I feel a bit rude after going twice a week since Christmas to suddenly stop without a word. I just find the group meetings unhelpful right now. I’m sick of listening to myself complain about making no progress. Haha: that’s what I’m doing here too, isn’t it? But I just don’t want to do it in a group right now. So, I think of this as a good thing: I don’t feel so drawn to attend groups to make me feel better. Instead I’d prefer just to sit and notice what’s going on here. Usually, anyway. The past few days have been difficult.
Well, yeah, I heard Jenni explain to someone how to step back from their story and recognise that they are what is aware of it. And I thought: yeah, that’s what I try to do all day. There’s just an intense, almost angry, resistance to that. The confusion, the self-criticism, the negativity, the distraction - all of that - dragging me away from being aware - telling me I’m doing it wrong over and over. Oh, my God. It works better some days. But the past few days, it’s been intense. It’s hard to see out from under it. I don’t know what to do about it.
- oconnordon
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2023 11:40 am
Re: Overcoming Doubt
Sunday 18th August 2024 (2)
I’m doing some meditation following Shar, who’s looking at the ego as pushing and pulling. I’ve used this meditation for a few weeks and I find it very helpful. For several days earlier this week, I was able to stay with it most of the way though, following each step. Today it is constant distraction. I spend some time with the EMDR sound therapy app - a few sessions of 20 minute each. I notice that I am aware - there is awareness - of the moment, but there is a kind of distraction that tells me that I am not aware. But I look all around the room and see that I am aware. And yet there is this contention that I am not.
It is very strong. It is the blanking part, the confusion, the unconsciousness … and the self-criticism, all rolled into one. It is hard and sharp and fast and aggressive. It acts like a fist in the centre of my head, grabbing attention, tightening its grip, twisting violently, and dragging attention down into confusion and blankness, sleepiness and borderline unconsciousness.
I try to see what it is made of. It seems that there is first the hyper-vigilance in the nervous system, expecting some form of violence or criticism from any direction. Then there is this shut-down action in my brain. It is like NO! NO, you are not here! NO, don’t! NO, don’t stay here. NO, don’t think any of your own thoughts, don’t have any of your own ideas. Just wait and see what’s required on the outside.
And it keeps me away from spontaneous thought and expression and movement by constantly distracting as well. It has this strong, fist-like action, described above. But it can act as a field of various half-formed distractions, each of them pulling attention away a little bit, this way and that, making you feel confused and dissipated, distributing your attention here and there. And at any point, one of these distractions, or another one from seemingly somewhere else can drag me off. And then there can be commentary on the process itself and commentary on how hard meditation is, and so on. And, of course, the part is happy with that - as long as you’re distracted in some way.
But every time I go back to it it is hard and intense and aggressive and it pushes me back over and over with blankness and confusion and distraction. And there is a combination of “NO, you’re wrong” and then the blankness and distraction. So, it’s like the kind of thing a very frightened parent would say to a child if they thought the child was really in danger: STOP, Don’t move; Be quiet; Stop everything you were thinking of doing; Don’t move a muscle! That kind of thing.
I say hello to it a few times, like we do in Focusing. It doesn’t really respond. It’s more used to shutting me down. But I do kind of get the impression that it’s there to stop me expressing spontaneously, and it is aided by any other distracting part or thought or thinking process. And it wants you away from it, away from the present. So it pushes back hard, aggressively, sharply; and then brings confusion and blankness and various forms of distraction. Looking straight at it is very hard; it is like it is covered in Teflon; your attention is constantly sliding off to one side or the other - going blank, getting confused, being told you’re doing it all wrong, being distracted by this or that. Whatever it takes.
It’s an exhausting process. I’ve done three or four 20 minute sessions with the EMDR app now, separated by Shar’s 18 minute meditation, or a similar length one from Angelo. I don’t know whether I’ve made progress or not. I don’t know whether the part can feel safe or not, whether it can stop doing this or not. We’ll have to see what’s needed.
I’m doing some meditation following Shar, who’s looking at the ego as pushing and pulling. I’ve used this meditation for a few weeks and I find it very helpful. For several days earlier this week, I was able to stay with it most of the way though, following each step. Today it is constant distraction. I spend some time with the EMDR sound therapy app - a few sessions of 20 minute each. I notice that I am aware - there is awareness - of the moment, but there is a kind of distraction that tells me that I am not aware. But I look all around the room and see that I am aware. And yet there is this contention that I am not.
It is very strong. It is the blanking part, the confusion, the unconsciousness … and the self-criticism, all rolled into one. It is hard and sharp and fast and aggressive. It acts like a fist in the centre of my head, grabbing attention, tightening its grip, twisting violently, and dragging attention down into confusion and blankness, sleepiness and borderline unconsciousness.
I try to see what it is made of. It seems that there is first the hyper-vigilance in the nervous system, expecting some form of violence or criticism from any direction. Then there is this shut-down action in my brain. It is like NO! NO, you are not here! NO, don’t! NO, don’t stay here. NO, don’t think any of your own thoughts, don’t have any of your own ideas. Just wait and see what’s required on the outside.
And it keeps me away from spontaneous thought and expression and movement by constantly distracting as well. It has this strong, fist-like action, described above. But it can act as a field of various half-formed distractions, each of them pulling attention away a little bit, this way and that, making you feel confused and dissipated, distributing your attention here and there. And at any point, one of these distractions, or another one from seemingly somewhere else can drag me off. And then there can be commentary on the process itself and commentary on how hard meditation is, and so on. And, of course, the part is happy with that - as long as you’re distracted in some way.
But every time I go back to it it is hard and intense and aggressive and it pushes me back over and over with blankness and confusion and distraction. And there is a combination of “NO, you’re wrong” and then the blankness and distraction. So, it’s like the kind of thing a very frightened parent would say to a child if they thought the child was really in danger: STOP, Don’t move; Be quiet; Stop everything you were thinking of doing; Don’t move a muscle! That kind of thing.
I say hello to it a few times, like we do in Focusing. It doesn’t really respond. It’s more used to shutting me down. But I do kind of get the impression that it’s there to stop me expressing spontaneously, and it is aided by any other distracting part or thought or thinking process. And it wants you away from it, away from the present. So it pushes back hard, aggressively, sharply; and then brings confusion and blankness and various forms of distraction. Looking straight at it is very hard; it is like it is covered in Teflon; your attention is constantly sliding off to one side or the other - going blank, getting confused, being told you’re doing it all wrong, being distracted by this or that. Whatever it takes.
It’s an exhausting process. I’ve done three or four 20 minute sessions with the EMDR app now, separated by Shar’s 18 minute meditation, or a similar length one from Angelo. I don’t know whether I’ve made progress or not. I don’t know whether the part can feel safe or not, whether it can stop doing this or not. We’ll have to see what’s needed.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 38 guests

