Approaching Awakening

[Kaki]

Even if we don't communicate perfectly, and I ask questions that you know, it's still beneficial to look again, so nothing is really a waste.

I agree and I appreciate all your questions. Re-addressing things does help. I feel like I got off track this last couple of weeks, really wrapped up in my thoughts, so it's helpful for you to bring me back to the fact that there is no ‘I’ that these thoughts are about and no one in control.

Yes, are you doing any of this?

No

What does it mean when it's okay and awesome?

Are there some feelings that are absent that are here now? Or some feelings that are there that are not here?

Almost always awakening becomes this thing that when we 'see' then we will feel great and life is amazing. That in itself becomes the distraction.

I use those terms when I've experienced doubts or fears about what awakening will be like. I'm aware my life is good right now. I've been lucky in the practical side of life and I'm comfortable. However I still get caught up in thought storms which make me suffer.

At some point, I imagine I will really know - that it has sunk in - that there is no separate self, no ‘I’ to be caught in these storms. The thoughts will just pass by and I won't identify with them. This sounds pretty awesome to me. What a relief!

In direct experience, when there is a thought of not enough, what is behind/above/below it that supports it?

There is a fear of not being enough, but what's beyond the fear?

In direct experience, go through the fear, what is there to be afraid of?

What is supporting this fear are only the memories/thoughts of times in my life when I felt like this and the emotions associated with them. In direct experience, there is nothing happening now to make me feel this way. I need to feel these emotions fully. There is more work to be done. (I added this last sentence as kind of a joke.)

[Bluejay]

I use those terms when I've experienced doubts or fears about what awakening will be like. I'm aware my life is good right now. I've been lucky in the practical side of life and I'm comfortable. However I still get caught up in thought storms which make me suffer.

Try to be very specific. The reason I'm asking these follow-up questions is to find out what it is you're truly after. Then we can explore.

At some point, I imagine I will really know - that it has sunk in - that there is no separate self, no ‘I’ to be caught in these storms. The thoughts will just pass by and I won't identify with them. This sounds pretty awesome to me. What a relief!

Who or what is it that will know this? Really look for the answer. It can be easy to look through thinking/knowing after a while.

And what is caught in a storm? Look at all the components of this. There are thoughts, and then there is resistance to thoughts (another thought), right? What else is in a storm, if anything?

Even seeing that there is no separate self, there will still be suffering. So next time if you notice a longing for relief, become aware of what feeling is being avoided, and dive into it.

What is supporting this fear are only the memories/thoughts of times in my life when I felt like this and the emotions associated with them. In direct experience, there is nothing happening now to make me feel this way. I need to feel these emotions fully. There is more work to be done. (I added this last sentence as kind of a joke.)

:-)

And look closer... Are the memories/thoughts connected to the sensation labeled fear?

What is fear without the label? Sensations. Look for a connection from sensations to something else.

Do these sensations know anything about the memories?

Thoughts are constantly looking for and creating connections and meaning. Sensations in the body that are uncomfortable are voided, stories constructed, and connections made where there are none.

[Kaki]

Try to be very specific. The reason I'm asking these follow-up questions is to find out what it is you're truly after. Then we can explore.

From what I've heard, there will be a dropping away of any sense of a separate self. I will no longer have the sense that ‘I’ am experiencing whatever, just the experiencing will be happening. There will be no ‘I’ that believes thoughts are about me, even if they seem to be about me. The these thoughts may arise but there will be no one to identify with them, or think they are real or worth spending time pondering.

Who or what is it that will know this? Really look for the answer. It can be easy to look through thinking/knowing after a while.

Wow. I guess there won't even be a self to know this.

And what is caught in a storm? Look at all the components of this. There are thoughts, and then there is resistance to thoughts (another thought), right? What else is in a storm, if anything?

To me, caught in the storm is identifying with a thought, thinking it is real, it about me. The storm starts when, as you say, one thought triggers another, and another, and I can't stop them. Thoughts about the past and future. There are sensations in the body related to the thoughts that trigger thoughts about the sensations. The initial thought can be pleasant or unpleasant but the unpleasant thoughts usually trigger a bunch of fear thoughts which grip me the most.

And look closer... Are the memories/thoughts connected to the sensation labeled fear?

Some of them are.

Do these sensations know anything about the memories?

The sensations themselves don't know about the memories but I think there is something in the body/mind that knows about the connection between certain memories and sensations when the memories are made. It seems like it can go both ways, thoughts can trigger sensations and certain sensations can trigger thoughts. I could be wrong though. 🤪

What is fear without the label? Sensations. Look for a connection from sensations to something else.

Thoughts are constantly looking for and creating connections and meaning. Sensations in the body that are uncomfortable are voided, stories constructed, and connections made where there are none.

That's for sure. Some sensations can triggers thoughts about where it is located in the body which can lead to more thoughts about potential damage being done to that part of the body. That can be another thought storm

[Kaki]

Try to be very specific. The reason I'm asking these follow-up questions is to find out what it is you're truly after. Then we can explore.

From what I've heard, there will be a dropping away of any sense of a separate self. I will no longer have the sense that ‘I’ am experiencing whatever, just the experiencing will be happening. There will be no ‘I’ that believes thoughts are about me, even if they seem to be about me. The these thoughts may arise but there will be no one to identify with them, or think they are real or worth spending time pondering.

Who or what is it that will know this? Really look for the answer. It can be easy to look through thinking/knowing after a while.

Wow. I guess there won't even be a self to know this.

And what is caught in a storm? Look at all the components of this. There are thoughts, and then there is resistance to thoughts (another thought), right? What else is in a storm, if anything?

To me, caught in the storm is identifying with a thought, thinking it is real, it about me. The storm starts when, as you say, one thought triggers another, and another, and I can't stop them. Thoughts about the past and future. There are sensations in the body related to the thoughts that trigger thoughts about the sensations. The initial thought can be pleasant or unpleasant but the unpleasant thoughts usually trigger a bunch of fear thoughts which grip me the most.

And look closer... Are the memories/thoughts connected to the sensation labeled fear?

Some of them are.

Do these sensations know anything about the memories?

The sensations themselves don't know about the memories but I think there is something in the body/mind that knows about the connection between certain memories and sensations when the memories are made. It seems like it can go both ways, thoughts can trigger sensations and certain sensations can trigger thoughts. I could be wrong though. 🤪

What is fear without the label? Sensations. Look for a connection from sensations to something else.

Thoughts are constantly looking for and creating connections and meaning. Sensations in the body that are uncomfortable are voided, stories constructed, and connections made where there are none.

That's for sure. Some sensations can triggers thoughts about where it is located in the body which can lead to more thoughts about potential damage being done to that part of the body. That can be another thought storm

[Bluejay]

From what I've heard, there will be a dropping away of any sense of a separate self. I will no longer have the sense that ‘I’ am experiencing whatever, just the experiencing will be happening. There will be no ‘I’ that believes thoughts are about me, even if they seem to be about me. The these thoughts may arise but there will be no one to identify with them, or think they are real or worth spending time pondering.

It can be difficult, because there remains the sense of I AM or I exist or consciousness. There is a sense that there is still something here.

The separate self is a belief that there is someone doing, feeling, thinking, experiencing, and making things happen.

I was going to give a personal example, but this is so difficult to describe that it's probably best for you to experience it for yourself :)

Wow. I guess there won't even be a self to know this.

No self to know, but knowing can still be there. For example, if you notice a sensation, can you find anything other than the sensation?

Can you find a feeler/knower?

If not, notice that there is still knowing of it, but is the knowing and sensation apart from each other, or the same?

To me, caught in the storm is identifying with a thought, thinking it is real, it about me. The storm starts when, as you say, one thought triggers another, and another, and I can't stop them. Thoughts about the past and future. There are sensations in the body related to the thoughts that trigger thoughts about the sensations. The initial thought can be pleasant or unpleasant but the unpleasant thoughts usually trigger a bunch of fear thoughts which grip me the most.

You say you can't stop them... What is this need to control thoughts about?

What is going to happen if the thought storm keeps going?

What is the fear trying to protect you from?

Some sensations can triggers thoughts about where it is located in the body which can lead to more thoughts about potential damage being done to that part of the body. That can be another thought storm

Oh, that's interesting. Is the fear about the sensations themselves, or that something is happening in the body physically that is bad?

[Kaki]

I had a little insight this morning. Looking for the self, I realized that I was still having self-referential thoughts but I also saw that it was not me that was making this stuff. I had thought that, if the content of the thoughts was about me, myself, then I was making these thoughts. But I'm not. They're just happening.

No self to know, but knowing can still be there. For example, if you notice a sensation, can you find anything other than the sensation?

No

Can you find a feeler/knower?
No

If not, notice that there is still knowing of it, but is the knowing and sensation apart from each other, or the same?

This one's tricky. Are those the only two choices? There can't be a separate knower so if there are only these two options, the knowing would have to be part of the sensation. Therefore, knowing is part of the seeing, and knowing is part of the hearing, smelling tasting, and thinking.

You say you can't stop them... What is this need to control thoughts about?

To stop the pain, the physical sensations they trigger, which I label as painful, caused by believing the thoughts.

What is going to happen if the thought storm keeps going?

The storm eventually passes. I get exhausted and the thoughts eventually subside or I get distracted in the thoughts eventually subside. Or I think I have a good plan for the future and the thoughts eventually subside, or I accept the situation and the thoughts eventually subside.

What is the fear trying to protect you from?

Probably more pain in the form of physical sensations, more thoughts that I am being judged and found lacking, etc. I need to sit with this one some more.

Oh, that's interesting. Is the fear about the sensations themselves, or that something is happening in the body physically that is bad?

I think the fear is about what might be happening in the body physically that is bad. Ha. It's funny how powerful our thoughts are when we believe them. More than once, I've gone to the doctor and was told everything is fine. Almost immediately, the physical sensations stop.

I have a question for you. Do you have less thoughts now than you did before awakening?

[Bluejay]

I had a little insight this morning. Looking for the self, I realized that I was still having self-referential thoughts but I also saw that it was not me that was making this stuff. I had thought that, if the content of the thoughts was about me, myself, then I was making these thoughts. But I'm not. They're just happening.

Excellent :)

Yes, thoughts can refer to a self or I, just like they can refer to unicorns.

This one's tricky. Are those the only two choices? There can't be a separate knower so if there are only these two options, the knowing would have to be part of the sensation. Therefore, knowing is part of the seeing, and knowing is part of the hearing, smelling tasting, and thinking.

What other choices would there be? Anything come to mind?

To stop the pain, the physical sensations they trigger, which I label as painful, caused by believing the thoughts.

Do you notice that the thoughts/thought storm aren't what is causing pain, but the resistance and reaction to them (i.e. what they mean)?

Thoughts themselves are never the problem. Neither are sensations, sounds, smells, tastes.

Probably more pain in the form of physical sensations, more thoughts that I am being judged and found lacking, etc. I need to sit with this one some more.

So there is fear of the thought storm because the thoughts about being judged or found lacking are believed, and then sensations that are seemingly connected to that are uncomfortable?

Does this all then come down to sensations that don't feel good?

I think the fear is about what might be happening in the body physically that is bad. Ha. It's funny how powerful our thoughts are when we believe them. More than once, I've gone to the doctor and was told everything is fine. Almost immediately, the physical sensations stop.

Yes :)

I have a question for you. Do you have less thoughts now than you did before awakening?

Yes definitely.

Even before awakening, I was challenging my thoughts and realizing that they were irrelevant. I would do the opposite of what they said, and sometimes I would write down what they predicted to see how correct they were.

[Kaki]

…is the knowing and sensation apart from each other, or the same?
What other choices would there be? Anything come to mind?

I can't think of any. It's just hard to get my head around. There is no self that is knowing or that is aware, but knowing and awareness exist in every experience, sensations, hearing, etc.

Do you notice that the thoughts/thought storm aren't what is causing pain, but the resistance and reaction to them (i.e. what they mean)?

Wow. I hadn't thought of it that way. The content is just content. The sensations are real but they are just sensations. The fact that I ‘fear’ them is actually the resistance to the sensations. So when I'm feeling the sensations, anything I tell myself about them, ‘this is scary, I don't want this to happen, this is pain/pleasure, are just more thoughts. Thoughts, or the ego , are tricky little devils. But a thought is nothing real.

These last couple of days I've been inclined to sit and try to feel into ‘where everything comes from’. I haven't spent very much time just sitting and feeling into what it's like to just ‘be’. When thoughts come, sometimes I notice it's just a thought and come back to just being. Sometimes I try to hold on to a thought and look at it more closely, but that's not very easy to do. More thoughts come in on top of that one pretty quickly.
Is this a good practice to do?

[Bluejay]

I can't think of any. It's just hard to get my head around. There is no self that is knowing or that is aware, but knowing and awareness exist in every experience, sensations, hearing, etc.

Yup :)

Could it be that this is just an arbitrary separation created in thought? Sensation+knowing of it is not two things, but just is what it is.

Wow. I hadn't thought of it that way. The content is just content. The sensations are real but they are just sensations. The fact that I ‘fear’ them is actually the resistance to the sensations. So when I'm feeling the sensations, anything I tell myself about them, ‘this is scary, I don't want this to happen, this is pain/pleasure, are just more thoughts. Thoughts, or the ego , are tricky little devils. But a thought is nothing real.

You got it.

When you see this, there is often more willingness to just let everything be and welcome it all. The resistance may still be there as it's a habitual response, but gradually it melts.

These last couple of days I've been inclined to sit and try to feel into ‘where everything comes from’. I haven't spent very much time just sitting and feeling into what it's like to just ‘be’. When thoughts come, sometimes I notice it's just a thought and come back to just being. Sometimes I try to hold on to a thought and look at it more closely, but that's not very easy to do. More thoughts come in on top of that one pretty quickly.
Is this a good practice to do?

This sounds good to me.

You could also add in to see if you can find a separate self in the being, if that makes sense?

Is there a self that is resting in being?

[Kaki]

I'm sorry for not responding sooner. I can't believe it's been a whole week. It's a busy time, Christmas, and I haven't taken much time to sit. When I do, it's usually just about 15 minutes to a half hour and it seems like thoughts of Christmas presents and baking take center stage in my head. I won't make a habit of this. Whatever you celebrate at this time of year, I wish you all good things.

When I observe my thoughts, I notice that some thoughts just come and go and others create a physical sensation in the body. I see that I'm attached to the thoughts that create the physical sensations, pleasant or unpleasant, and go through that resistance process with the unpleasant sensations. The resistance reaction happens a lot, which I'm seeing is more of a habitual response, as you say, and more often I am able to let it all go. It amazes me though that so many thoughts are unnecessary. There's no purpose to them. Sometimes, I can actually feel my brain get tight with so many thoughts.

Sometimes I sit and try to just feel the body parts. Even then, a thought inevitably arises that reflects and labels what I'm feeling, i.e. cool, tingly, etc. I guess this too is just a habitual response.

Is there a self that is resting in being?

This is helpful to make me aware if I'm actually thinking that there is an I who is trying to just be. There isn't, but I'm not sure if I know what I'm doing here. I believe that the ‘idea’ of me is just a thought but I don't know what the ‘sense’ of me is. It's not my physical senses but something that is aware of my senses. It's kind of nothing. It's difficult to stay here without thoughts coming in to take over.

[Bluejay]

I'm sorry for not responding sooner. I can't believe it's been a whole week. It's a busy time, Christmas, and I haven't taken much time to sit. When I do, it's usually just about 15 minutes to a half hour and it seems like thoughts of Christmas presents and baking take center stage in my head. I won't make a habit of this. Whatever you celebrate at this time of year, I wish you all good things.

No problem. Feel free to take some time off to just enjoy this time of year. Don't feel like you have to do inquiry. Just enjoy :)

Here in Europe we often celebrate Christmas Eve on the 24th.

Wish you all the best, too!

This is helpful to make me aware if I'm actually thinking that there is an I who is trying to just be. There isn't, but I'm not sure if I know what I'm doing here. I believe that the ‘idea’ of me is just a thought but I don't know what the ‘sense’ of me is. It's not my physical senses but something that is aware of my senses. It's kind of nothing. It's difficult to stay here without thoughts coming in to take over.

Often when you start getting closer, there will be ideas that something is aware of the senses. It may feel like nothing, ephemeral, or being 'everywhere'.

But notice when there's a sensation, where is the one being aware of something? Do you find it, or do you just find a sensation?

Do you find two things? Awareness and sensation?

[Kaki]

Do you find two things? Awareness and sensation?

This is the same as 'knowing' of sensations that we talked about. It's still difficult to get my head around but I can't find anything there that is separate from the sensation. How can I dismantle that thought of separation? I know that's what we're doing with looking but it would be nice to have a sledgehammer or something.

[Bluejay]

How can I dismantle that thought of separation? I know that's what we're doing with looking but it would be nice to have a sledgehammer or something.

You keep looking over and over.

Whenever there's a feeling of awareness + something, look for the separation/border. What is separate?

If you find nothing, stay in that nothing.

It would be great if just knowing that there's nothing were enough, but there's an experiential shift that's needed, and that happens when you stay with it.

There's bound to be frustration, boredom, and discomfort. Those are good signs :)

[Kaki]

Hi. I hope you had a nice holiday.

Whenever there's a feeling of awareness + something, look for the separation/border. What is separate?
If you find nothing, stay in that nothing.

I've been spending about an hour a day meditating, watching my thoughts and feeling sensations. When I consciously look at a thoughts and get a sense of being aware of it, I ask who is aware of this thought, like they're two different entities. I seem to know that there is no answer, there is no separate self watching the thought. When I can stay with this, the two apparent separate entities seem to merge and I stay here until the next stop or sensation grabs my attention.

It's the same with sensations. When I become aware of one, I ask who is aware. Getting no answer, it can seem like there is just the sensation, the energy creating it and moving it. I stay here as long as I can. Sometimes I have the thought that this is the real sense of me, the energy that the sensations and thoughts are made of. Then I become aware that this is another thought and stay with that thought.

When there is no thought or sensation and it's quiet, there doesn't seem to be any awareness until I ask who is aware of this silence. 😄 And that's another thought so the cycle starts over.

[Bluejay]

Hi. I hope you had a nice holiday.

You too!

I've been spending about an hour a day meditating, watching my thoughts and feeling sensations. When I consciously look at a thoughts and get a sense of being aware of it, I ask who is aware of this thought, like they're two different entities. I seem to know that there is no answer, there is no separate self watching the thought. When I can stay with this, the two apparent separate entities seem to merge and I stay here until the next stop or sensation grabs my attention.

It's the same with sensations. When I become aware of one, I ask who is aware. Getting no answer, it can seem like there is just the sensation, the energy creating it and moving it. I stay here as long as I can. Sometimes I have the thought that this is the real sense of me, the energy that the sensations and thoughts are made of. Then I become aware that this is another thought and stay with that thought.

This all sounds good. Keep going!

When there is no thought or sensation and it's quiet, there doesn't seem to be any awareness until I ask who is aware of this silence. 😄 And that's another thought so the cycle starts over.

At that point, you don't have to ask, just stay there and look to see if you find something.

It can feel like you're looking for an answer, but remember, the lack of an answer is the answer.