Letting go

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

You're very welcome.

I've been looking at objects and trying to see if they are discrete or not.

Do you mean like ButtChair, looking for a place where one ends & the other begins? If so, good.

So next to me is an "apple" on a "desk."
See. I see an area of 'red' and 'green' which is 'round', and an area of 'white' which has straight edges. They look different. I see a boundary where the red and green appear to end, and the colour of the desk starts.
Hear. When I hit the apple and then the desk with something, different sounds appear.
Feel. They have different textures and temperatures.
Taste. They taste different.
Smell. They smell different.

I would like to keep going with this for a few days and report on how my experience of it is changing. Would that be ok?

Certainly. It might be more effective to check them for separation from the imagined self, but you can try this.

Or play some music & see if there's any difference between hearer & sounds? Or is there one thing, Hearing?

To help keep you from getting stuck or spinning your wheels, please continue to post every day.

Loving,

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy.

Do you mean like ButtChair, looking for a place where one ends & the other begins? If so, good.

Yes, that, and also looking to see if objects are distinct from each other.
However, now I've read your comment...

It might be more effective to check them for separation from the imagined self, but you can try this.

...I see I was looking at it kind of sideways!

Or play some music & see if there's any difference between hearer & sounds? Or is there one thing, Hearing?

Just one thing; hearing.

To help keep you from getting stuck or spinning your wheels, please continue to post every day.

Thanks. I'll try to post every day :-)
With love and thanks xxx

[Anastacia42]

Good, yes.

Post how it *feels* to notice "one thing, hearing," and any other non-separate observations of one thing similar to handondesk.

Loving,

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy,

To help keep you from getting stuck or spinning your wheels, please continue to post every day.

The best laid plans...! I've had no time today, sorry, but will post tomorrow 😊❤ xxx

[Anastacia42]

That's okay.

Thanks for letting me know.

Hasta mañana!

[Padmasukha]

Good Morning.
Someone sent me this :-D
https://vimeo.com/22687482
xxxx

[Anastacia42]

Can you understand the words? I must be losing my hearing! I'm finding her hard to hear. But cute idea, I think.

[Padmasukha]

Not all of them. It is a bit fuzzy! Made me laugh though.
Off to work now. Have a good day. Wait, what time is it there? Go to bed, Stacy! :-D xxxx

[Anastacia42]

I'm sitting out a leg cramp. Then I can go back to sleep.

2:20 am.

Thanks for caring!

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy.

Discrete objects? Or THOUGHTS that they're discrete?

It's thoughts that they're discrete. All apparent phenomena are just appearances to sense awarenesses, labelled by thoughts, and as such are all of one nature, not discrete from one another.

It might be more effective to check them for separation from the imagined self

It was so interesting to read this reply from you and see that I'd been looking at it all wrong! Sometimes I just fail to understand what I should be doing. Or start off on a train of thought and go right off track.
Checking objects for separation from the imagined self...
I can't see where the imagined self comes in here. The appearances seem to arise whether there is a sense of self or not. The appearance of the phenomena that gets labelled 'apple' arises independent of a sense of self, but not independent from the sense awarenesses to which it appears. Seeing and the image are one arising, tasting and the taste are one arising, etc.
If the thought 'my' apple arises, then there is the a of self, but the appearance of 'apple' doesn't seem to depend on it.
I'll look again in the morning. I am deeply fascinated by this.
With much love and thanks xxx

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Checking objects for separation from the imagined self...
I can't see where the imagined self comes in here. The appearances seem to arise whether there is a sense of self or not.

Good, no imagined self is seen?

How does it feel to find no imagined self?

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy,
I wrote you a message yesterday, and when I tried to send it before going to bed the programme lost it! I'd forgotten to save it as I went along.
I've had quite a bit of time over the weekend for this. I've been doing hand-on-desk, and looking at that more widely, at how there is no separation between sensation and the sensed, seeing and the seen, etc.
What is seen is that the perceived world comprises these non-dual appearances.

Good, no imagined self is seen?

Not when looking at direct experience.

How does it feel to find no imagined self?

There is no self appearing when looking, but no lack of self appears either.
I've been doing the 'is an apple seen?' exercise too, and looking at 'self' in that way. And again, although no self is found, there is no particular sense of no-self either.
There seems to be a developing clarity of how the perceived self is a story made up of memories, likes, feelings, tendencies, thought streams, etc. It seems especially strong when there is attachment or aversion arising, but there still doesn't seem to be an identifiable self separate from the feelings when I try to isolate it.
With love and gratitude xxx

[Anastacia42]

Great!

Good, no imagined self is seen?
Not when looking at direct experience.

Good. Focus on this.

There seems to be a developing clarity of how the perceived self is a story made up of memories, likes, feelings, tendencies, thought streams, etc. It seems especially strong when there is attachment or aversion arising, but there still doesn't seem to be an identifiable self separate from the feelings when I try to isolate it.

Good. It sounds as though your practice is working. Keep looking like this until seeking disappears. Keep posting how it is for you, how it *feels* to see.

Loving,

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy,

Good, no imagined self is seen?
Not when looking at direct experience.

Good. Focus on this.

Looking more at this today, I was half-remembering things I read in the Enlightening Quotes app, so went to look for them:
Direct Experience
Examining thoughts and their contents is pointless. It is completely pointless unless you see there is no self experiencing them - unless you bring your attention to just that.
Direct Experience
How about the subtle witness? Witnessing, focusing, intending, inspiring, observing, and watching are all processes that have no subject, no doer. Every form of identification is assumed, mostly due to language.
I was looking at how, even when everything else is stripped away, there still seems to be an 'I' in awareness, but then it became clearer that thoughts/mental awareness are as inseparable as hand/desk, butt/chair, images/seeing, hearing/sounds.
When I feel 'I' am aware, it is just awareness inevitably happening, just as seeing is inevitably happening. There is no more of an 'I' in mental awareness or thoughts than in eye awareness or images. Funny to think that there is no more control over what thoughts appear than what images or sounds appear. We don't feel like we just heard or saw something intentionally, like we made it happen, and yet to think we thought things or generated intentions voluntarily is just as absurd. (That last thought just came as I was writing, and I need to look at that more.)
I've been really watching (in that habitual language!!!) thoughts arising, and how there is no control. There is no self looking, no self asking these questions, positing answers, imagining questions in the imagined American accent I have for you! Or in that of my Tibetan lama, or of Morpheus, ha ha! It all just appears from causes, conditions and patterns.
When I rise from contemplation it seems the complexity of appearances just reloads normal thinking, and everything appears solid and 'real' again.

Keep looking like this until seeking disappears. Keep posting how it is for you, how it *feels* to see.

Still no feeling of seeing no 'I'. Just the lack of finding. I haven't reached an end of seeking, but feel I'm getting closer to it.
With much love and gratitude always xxx

[Padmasukha]

Hi Stacy,
I hope everything is OK with you.
I have been looking more at there being no separate self in mental awareness, or in anything else that might by thought to comprise a 'me'. There still is no separate self appearing, but no particular realisation or feeling of no-self either. I will keep looking and keep posting.
Much love and thanks, Steph xxx