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Locutus1452
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Re: Still looking...

Postby Locutus1452 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:41 pm

I would say that this is a ‘war’ on thoughts. Not wanting to have thoughts overcasting experience. And when that happens, the belief in the I is active. I don’t like these thoughts; I want unfiltered experience instead. It’s all about me, what I want, what I like, what I prefer.
Ok that's useful. It's why I mentioned this experience. Is suspected that having the thought "remember that there's no me" did seem like another Russian doll.

The prospect of simply thoughts/feelings(?) arising and not being attached to a "me" seems .... outlandish! I'll try and forget the implications for ethics and plough on with looking as plainly and honestly as possible with the hope that such concerns will seem as hard to understand 'on the other side' as ... probably many other habits will.

J

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Vivien
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Re: Still looking...

Postby Vivien » Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:40 am

Hi Jim,
Is suspected that having the thought "remember that there's no me" did seem like another Russian doll.
Well, this thought can prompt looking and then SEEING it, but if it’s just a reminder, then it’s intellectual.

I’m wondering how much looking and seeing is happening each day? Could you please share?
The prospect of simply thoughts/feelings(?) arising and not being attached to a "me" seems .... outlandish!
Outlandish for who?
WHERE is the one that cannot believe this?

Notice, that it’s a thought not seen to be a thought only.

Prove that thoughts and feelings are NOT just arising, but happening TO someone. What is the experiential evidence?

You need to really start to inquire and not just contemplate. Otherwise, this is just a mental exercise, nothing else. Step out from the unknown (analyzing) and really look at what is going on in actuality.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Locutus1452
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Re: Still looking...

Postby Locutus1452 » Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:21 pm

Vivien,

First up, thank you for your patience.
I’m wondering how much looking and seeing is happening each day? Could you please share?
Not as much as there should be. Why is that...?

I find myself embarrassed. Even mildly ashamed. Returning here reminds me of it, hence my reluctance I think.

And why would that be?

Well, why is it that something that is clear and obvious to me intellectually should be so elusive? And not just intellectually. There was a period of weeks when I could sense/feel the truth. I drew back. I was concerned that an old problem had risen up and was occupying the space left behind by the temporary absence of an owning I. That issue is alienation. I feel that - for me at least - this issue is my Achilles heel. It was very much a spur to my first getting involved with Buddhism some 40 years ago.

What do I mean by "alienation"? A disconnect from my own feelings and those of others. Of course, by now I have the social skills and self-knowledge to "style it out" but I know it's there.
My fear is that this results from a misapprehension, a misapplication of seeing. It's possible it's not that but simply a new experience growing out of the "death" of the old. It's difficult for me to know.
Outlandish for who?
WHERE is the one that cannot believe this?
Where indeed? It is the one who makes judgments. Enjoys interesting thoughts. Laughs at funny things. A constantly entertained ego. Someone who decides on this rather than that.
Prove that thoughts and feelings are NOT just arising, but happening TO someone. What is the experiential evidence?
One of the key caveats raise before dialogues are entered into on this site is that there is no "magic bullet" here. Once the illusion is seen as such, there are still floors to be swept and water to be drawn. These things require an 'impeller'. Motivation. This is my experience. At least to this point.

You will have this in your own experience I think. The answer to where is this one for me lies in this impeller. This motivation to simply do this, instead of that.
Why am I attempting to draw on your experience rather than mine?
If I was asked to show this I, to demonstrate it then I can only do so in the way that I would share the taste of a fresh lime or the colour orange: I would appeal to our shared experience of these things and make the assumption that even if your view of how this works is different from mine that we both at least experience, in the case of "I" rather than fruit, direction and choice in life.

J x

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Vivien
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Re: Still looking...

Postby Vivien » Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:23 am

Hi Jim,
What do I mean by "alienation"? A disconnect from my own feelings and those of others. Of course, by now I have the social skills and self-knowledge to "style it out" but I know it's there.
My fear is that this results from a misapprehension, a misapplication of seeing. It's possible it's not that but simply a new experience growing out of the "death" of the old. It's difficult for me to know.
I’m not sure if this is how it is for you, but it’s quite common that after some glimpses a conclusion comes (conscious or unconscious) that I don’t need to be bothered by anything, especially by the emotions associated to the personal self. It’s a way of denial, a sort of spiritual bypassing. There is no one there, so why should I bother? Or the reasoning could be something else, but the outcome is disconnect from feeling, from daily life, for the apparent personhood.
Why am I attempting to draw on your experience rather than mine?
This is a good question. One answer could be that it’s a way of keeping the whole thing intellectually. If I described my experience, you either believe it or not. But even if you believe it that is just an intellectual belief. All belief is intellectual. Everything that is intellectual is a belief. so it’s a closed circle.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Locutus1452
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Re: Still looking...

Postby Locutus1452 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:25 pm

but it’s quite common that after some glimpses a conclusion comes (conscious or unconscious) that I don’t need to be bothered by anything, especially by the emotions associated to the personal self. It’s a way of denial, a sort of spiritual bypassing. There is no one there, so why should I bother?
Yes. This IS what it feels like. It's like other people are characters on a screen, in a fiction who are being serenely observed.That even goes for "me". It's not the kind of serenity I'm after!

This is I think where I need the help of someone further down the path so I can avoid a wrong turn...
Are my efforts to look and see still too based in thinking or is this just a temporary artefact that will just be seen thru later...?

J x

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Still looking...

Postby Vivien » Sun Apr 24, 2022 12:49 am

Hi Jim,
Yes. This IS what it feels like. It's like other people are characters on a screen, in a fiction who are being serenely observed.That even goes for "me". It's not the kind of serenity I'm after!
Notice the HUGE contradiction here. You say “this is not the kind of serenity I’m after!” – Is this seeking / wanting for serenity is also about the character on the seeming screen?

Do you see that the seeing is being personalized taken on behalf of a person, Jim, who is not happy with the outcome?

This is a feedback for you that something is not seen here. That it’s not a full seeing. It’s still the seeing of Jim. Do you see?
This is I think where I need the help of someone further down the path so I can avoid a wrong turn...
Are my efforts to look and see still too based in thinking or is this just a temporary artefact that will just be seen thru later...?
Well, most of your replies still seem to be intellectual for me. When it’s really seen, something shifts. Something changes, even if it’s a subtle change.

There might be glimpses, but the story about that is taken on behalf of a person, which is not seen.
That also needs to be included into the seeing. That’s the way to go.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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