Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

[CapnBoomer]

Howdy there Vince

The illusion of an independent self is at times useful. Can you relate this to your own experience and give a couple of examples?
give me a couple of examples of this from your experience library.

Well, it allows me to be having this conversation with you for starters. The illusion of an independent self also allows me to fully participate in this farming/sailing/ married guy life I find myself in...as the character Bennett.

Did you experience what was happening in the dream?

Yup, sure did, no confusion there. And it was so vivid! But there was no I there to experience it...it was simply sensations of seeing, hearing, smelling etc. "I" smelled things that were very intense, yet I had no nose..not really, only a dream one. There was just smelling. There was a 'me' present but it wasnt really me...not even in the dream....I wasnt Bennett in the dream but it was 'Me'. So would the real 'me ' please stand up?

Go on.. tell me about the cracks.

If the story I've been telling myself, and reinforcing with my repeated emotional reactions, is just that, a story...then what else is a story? Maybe turn that around...what isn't a story? It opens the whole game up to investigation. I've been suffering because I believed in an investigated thought. How many more are there? I have been fighting reality, believing I know how things should or shouldnt be. Just adding more suffering to my experience and the world. If I can question

... that there is a story of inadequacy and hopelessness that you are responding to?

holy cow....and really see that I have responding to a frickin story!!! That is quite a crack in this wall I have built to protect and defend my shabby sense of self. I can see how insane it all is... but in a way logical and understandable...with compassion.

Yeah! Dang Right!

Thanks Vince


Bennett

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Bennett,

Well, it allows me to be having this conversation with you for starters. The illusion of an independent self also allows me to fully participate in this farming/sailing/ married guy life I find myself in...as the character Bennett.

Yes. You also use it to locate your body in space. Protects you from being run over by a bus. ...but how essential is this? Do you think that there is a mechanism that allows this without the story of "I am crossing the road and I need to watch for traffic."

There was a 'me' present but it wasnt really me...not even in the dream....I wasnt Bennett in the dream but it was 'Me'.

So how was this "me" different to the waking "me"?

So would the real 'me ' please stand up?

Do you notice that there is no one standing?
If there is no 'real' me, is there an unreal me?

what isn't a story?

What is an answer to this?

It opens the whole game up to investigation.

Yes yes yes. this will continue (until it doesn't)

I've been suffering because I believed in an investigated thought. How many more are there? I have been fighting reality, believing I know how things should or shouldnt be. Just adding more suffering to my experience and the world.

Now can you grok why it is called Liberation?

with love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Hey-ya Vince
Thanks for getting back to me...some good stuff here...

Yes. You also use it to locate your body in space. Protects you from being run over by a bus. ...but how essential is this? Do you think that there is a mechanism that allows this without the story of "I am crossing the road and I need to watch for traffic."

I am beginning to realize that the mechanism I took to be 'me watching for traffic' was, is and could only be simply ' a watching for traffic happening' all on its own. Not even that, not even "on its own", it is simply what is happening. Maybe the body will be hit by the bus, maybe it will make it across the street, then again it may turn around because it forgot something at home and not cross the street at all. So I'm not sure that there is a mechanism per se , that implies cause and effect. Is-ness just IS. THIS simply IS, no mechanism. For some reason this awakening realization brings along with it a quiet easeful relaxing happiness. I can take my hands off the wheel and let the car steer itself because that is what it has been doing all along anyway. Turns out the steering wheel was never connected to anything.

There was a 'me' present but it wasnt really me...not even in the dream....I wasnt Bennett in the dream but it was 'Me'.

So how was this "me" different to the waking "me"?

Felt the same...both felt like me, my perspective. So which one is the "real" me? The me sitting here writing these words or the me from the dream, barefoot in a dusty Mexican village going to buy some food with the few pesos I have in my hand. There is something there that is aware of both of those "me's", yet is neither of them.

So would the real 'me ' please stand up?

Do you notice that there is no one standing?
If there is no 'real' me, is there an unreal me?

Yes, that was a rhetorical question, I see now. There is no "one" standing and yet something is aware that no one is standing. Not a "me" but not a "not me" either. Beginning to see that there is no one to stand up....but just standing happening . And if there is no real me there is no unreal one.. An unreal me would imply the existence of something called an unreal me. They are both non existent. But what is it that knows this? Just Knowing? Appears to be Knowing knowing knowing.... Whoa!!!

what isn't a story?

What is an answer to this?

Its all a story...except what is happening right now...the direct experience of what is happening now...THIS. Sensations, seeing, hearing, thoughts arising.... All else is added..make believe...habit and conditioning. And it's happening on its own.

I've been suffering because I believed in an investigated thought. How many more are there? I have been fighting reality, believing I know how things should or shouldnt be. Just adding more suffering to my experience and the world.

Now can you grok why it is called Liberation?

Oops, I meant uninvestigated thought. But me thinks you knew that....and yes me grok why called Liberation it is.

Cheers!

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Bennett,

There is something there that is aware of both of those "me's", yet is neither of them.

But what is it that knows this? Just Knowing? Appears to be Knowing knowing knowing.... Whoa!!!

Careful boy. This is dangerous territory. That 'something' that knows, that is aware, that's a logical conclusion. Another story. Why? (rhetorical question) Because the actuality of it is beyond our ability to experience it.
Certainly, we can experience something on the edge of it, but getting it into focus...
If you are not careful, you will replace thinking one story is real for another. Liberation is not only freedom from the most common cult(ural) delusions, but it is freedom from identifying with any story.
Don't get me wrong. i know the "Whoa!!!". For me it is the wonder full-ness of the mystery. The empty story with no words or pictures. The mystery of how it all works. The acceptance of questions that don't have answers. Like why?
Maybe inside that story of the great mystery, there is something to identify with. If there is, it hasn't yet revealed itself here.

with love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Howdy Vince

Been sitting with your response for a few days. I am more than a little confused by it and am trying to reconcile your words with my experience.

Because the actuality of it is beyond our ability to experience it.

Is it not the ONLY thing we can know for sure...THAT we know? How is this dangerous? I'm dying to know. Dont see how this is true at all. What now?

Is there anything other than the knowing of our experience...what ever we call that? And something knows, or is aware of, that knowing. This is what I meant by Knowing knowing knowing. Maybe this is getting all bunged up because of the word/communication thing again. Maybe its more substantive.
Aware-ing, know-ing, life-ing....I see them as synonyms.

Because the actuality of it is beyond our ability to experience it

Can we absolutely know this is true? Isnt this a story too? Wouldn't it be that if THIS IS is all there is, then all there is, is what there is and that is being experienced now? Help me here Vince, what am I missing or caught up in?

If you are not careful, you will replace thinking one story is real for another.

So true.... How is this avoided?

For me it is the wonder full-ness of the mystery. The empty story with no words or pictures. The mystery of how it all works. The acceptance of questions that don't have answers. Like why?

Yes, this does feel better....a story with no words or pictures...pure mystery. And yet...something (life, awareness, knowing) is aware of this knowing. No? More of the unidentifiable (some "thing" that cant be identified with) mystery?..... or is this all Story?

I've continued to slowly read Ilona's book , Liberaton Unleashed and have gotten to her Seven Steps and am going thru them very slowly...just on Step One: Clearing the Path, Meeting the Fear, now. She opens with the quote...

There is no separate self at all in reality-.........there never was such an entity and never will be.

When read this brings on a sense of ease and relaxation in body sensations and thought.... a lightening of all "the story" bits. This is quickly followed by fear in the form of anger and frustration and the attending story of...."oh thats just great for some lucky people but if my run continues as it has....lots of studying, reading, contemplating, meditating with no "getting"....this LU thing will be just one more that I can add to the "a swing and a miss" pile. Of course when examined I cant know absolutely that this is true. Maybe LU is the one...certainly has been for lots of folks in just my (this) situation.
Anyway, I'm working thru this first step.

Thanks for sticking with me Vince. I know I'm a hard nut to crack. I am counting on you having a big enough hammer!

Cheers!

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

Howdy Bennett,

Is it not the ONLY thing we can know for sure...THAT we know? How is this dangerous?

What is knowing? Is it possessing knowledge?
What is knowledge, but having information of a particular quality. That quality being accuracy.
Who is this "we", that knows?
It's dangerous because you can be seduced into identifying with the knower. Who is this knower?

Is there anything other than the knowing of our experience...

Would it be more accurate to say that we interpret our experience?
How different is an experience if we have it when in a really good mood, then when we are depressed?

And something knows, or is aware of, that knowing.

..and therein lies the danger.

what I found was that as I tried to identify the listener, the listening stopped but the hearing continued.

From your own experience, there was no listener or hearer. There was just hearing.
Can there be knowing without a knower? ..although I dispute the knowing. It is believing.

with love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Well Vince.....

What is knowing? Is it possessing knowledge?

.
Maybe we are just getting caught up in semantics. The way I see 'knowing' does not imply knowledge or information or a know-er. In the same way " there was no listener or hearer. There was just hearing." There is no know-er or knowledge but there is knowing...in my experience. How is this type of knowing different from the hearing you describe?

And something knows, or is aware of, that knowing.
..and therein lies the danger.

I'm really looking at this. ......... Yes, I can see here where I went a little off the rails. There is no know-er, just the knowing. There is no hearer, just the hearing.

Would it be more accurate to say that we interpret our experience?

Isnt there also a knowing of that interpretation? There is a knowing, awareness, consciousness of the the interpretation of experience.

How different is an experience if we have it when in a really good mood, then when we are depressed?

Quite different.

Can there be knowing without a knower? ..although I dispute the knowing. It is believing.

I dont know what I know but I know that I know.

Cheers!

Bennett

[CapnBoomer]

Hello Again Vince

As I read back thru what I wrote yesterday I am wondering about this "know" bit. It is a bit presumptive, isnt it. To claim to know anything about anything......even knowing. Do I know that I know...really???? There is something here...life, being...or at least the movement of that...but I really cant claim knowing...if I'm really honest and open. In this simple moment all there is is this experience. There is an experience of this experience but is it known or simply experienced? A subtle but way important difference. I am letting myself drop the knowing stance and settle into the just the sensations as they appear right now...sans story. Quite the thang. Much less agitation and mind chatter and defensiveness. Easier...free-er.
Anyway...looking forward to your next post

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Bennett, sorry about the patchy responses. i am travelling at the moment, so that will probably continue until next week.

I am wondering about this "know" bit.

yes, the implication in "knowing" is that it is exactly defined. No room for error. i am more relaxed calling knowing believing.

There is an experience of this experience but is it known or simply experienced?

There is the experience. Then comes the interpretation of it. Then comes a response to the interpretation.
i am telling you this, but i expect you to confirm or refute it with observation.

Isn't there also a knowing of that interpretation? There is a knowing, awareness, consciousness of the the interpretation of experience.

Sometimes we are aware of it. Sometimes it stays beneath our awareness.
It's this language thing again. When i say "awareness", because it's a noun, it can be interpreted as a thing. If we substituted "aware-ing" (a verb) it would be more accurate. Same with "know". i am happy to use it when i know that i don't know.
At some point, we have to return to the usual use of language, but when we say "I" etc we know(haha) that it is an illusion.

How is this type of knowing different from the hearing you describe?

Even "hearing" is a bit sloppy. It's a concept pointing to a process. It might be better to say that "sound-ing" happened. ..but even that falls short of what was actually happening. "Hearing" implies a hearer. Sounding implies a heard.
How do we put into language that for a moment you became the vibration (called sound)? That there was no you or it, but something else entirely.

with love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Hey Vince......

i am travelling at the moment, so that will probably continue until next week.

No worries...we appreciate you keeping up with the guide thang while traveling.

Wondering if you saw my second post last time? I'm copying it here in case you didnt.

Hello Again Vince

As I read back thru what I wrote yesterday I am wondering about this "know" bit. It is a bit presumptive, isnt it. To claim to know anything about anything......even knowing. Do I know that I know...really???? There is something here...life, being...or at least the movement of that...but I really cant claim knowing...if I'm really honest and open. In this simple moment all there is is this experience. There is an experience of this experience but is it known or simply experienced? A subtle but way important difference. I am letting myself drop the knowing stance and settle into the just the sensations as they appear right now...sans story. Quite the thang. Much less agitation and mind chatter and defensiveness. Easier...free-er.
Anyway...looking forward to your next post.

Back to your latest comments......

the implication in "knowing" is that it is exactly defined. No room for error. i am more relaxed calling knowing believing.

Yes, I am beginning to see what you have pointing to with this "knowing" thing. Its tricky with words but knowing does contain many implications that I thought were true once, but really beginning to doubt that. Quite a relief actually...to not know.

There is the experience. Then comes the interpretation of it. Then comes a response to the interpretation.
i am telling you this, but i expect you to confirm or refute it with observation.

Yes, yes, I see that now...no refutation from this end....(is that a word, refutation? Auto spell didnt mind it)
Are you suggestion to stay with step one, the experience, or to watch all three happen as they happen?

That sequence happens so fast as to be almost seamless. But when you break it down like that, and I really look, I can see that all playing out. Quite fascinating really.

At some point, we have to return to the usual use of language, but when we say "I" etc we know(haha) that it is an illusion.

Yup, that a good 'un. Suspend disbelief for the sake of the show.

How do we put into language that for a moment you became the vibration (called sound)? That there was no you or it, but something else entirely.

Yes, how indeed. And yet we try, and fail, but at least we "know"(haha) we are failing. There is great surrender and humility in that, I find.

Staying with the experience is so much easier and .....lighter. Even see the interpretation is just an experience happening......to no one?

Thanks so much again, Vince

Happy and Safe Travels...Via con Dios

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Bennett,

Wondering if you saw my second post last time?

i thought that i covered it, but...

I am letting myself drop the knowing stance and settle into the just the sensations as they appear right now...sans story.

Is "sans story" possible. When is there no story present?

There is an experience of this experience but is it known or simply experienced?

Is "simply experienced" possible?
Is to become aware of an experience really to be involved in an interpretation (a story) about it?
Would you agree that it is our relationship with stories that is the crux of this investigation?
What do you imagine that to identify with the subject matter of a story involves?

Quite a relief actually...to not know

Brilliant. Yes! It is where freedom emerges.

is that a word, refutation?

Yes.

Are you suggesting to stay with step one, the experience, or to watch all three happen as they happen?

Ha, Que Sera Sera.

That sequence happens so fast as to be almost seamless. But when you break it down like that, and I really look, I can see that all playing out.

Yes. Practice makes this easier. i see no perfection to this. It is ongoing (here), and i imagine a continual improvement while i exist.

Yup, that a good 'un. Suspend disbelief for the sake of the show.

Yes. Actors on the stage may identify with their character for the sake of communication, but underneath they know(ha) that is not who they really are.


with love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Hi Vince
Thanks for your comments and observations.

Is "sans story" possible. When is there no story present?

When there is no sense of 'I" present...when there is just direct experience.

Is "simply experienced" possible?

At some level, at some point it must be. Direct experience of what is called "a bird singing"..just the sounds sounding...no me, no bird, no song..purely sound.

Is to become aware of an experience really to be involved in an interpretation (a story) about it?

Hmmm....Is it that awareness is not possible with interpretation? Or maybe that the notion of experience implies interpretation and is thus fundamentally different than pure awareness.

Would you agree that it is our relationship with stories that is the crux of this investigation?

Yes. Is it possible to see ....experience.... be aware.....BE....without story? IF the me story is seen thru is there just another one there to replace it? A story of "not me"?

What do you imagine that to identify with the subject matter of a story involves?

Dont need to imagine it, I am doing it now. That is, I am identifying with the story of a me and a Vince and a computer and a world. It involves great effort,deception, forgetting, willingness, daring, and consistency . It takes a great remembering to forget......and a wry wit.

Cheerie Oh

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

G'day Bennett. i'm home..

Is "sans story" possible. When is there no story present?

When there is no sense of 'I" present...when there is just direct experience.

Is this something that actually happens? (or is it something that you imagine happens..)
If it is, then do you see stories rushing in to a vacuum called about the experience?

Is "simply experienced" possible?

At some level, at some point it must be.

Ah, this is a logical conclusion. (also called a story)
Remember, i only want reports of actual experience. This will include experiencing thought. That is, the fact that a thought has occurred. The story of what the thought was about isn't experienced, but the physical/emotional response to that story is. Now...
here's one of those paradoxes' that frequents this stuff. What i just said is true, but it also isn't.
Of course the contents of the thought is experienced. ..but it isn't. Each time we approach the content of the thought, a story intervenes. So the first time we approached the direct experience, we find ourselves responding to something. To a story, but that story was prompted by another story. ..and that story by one beneath the previous story.
Not very far down we are in what is referred to as the subconscious stuff.
Can you remember the first story that led to an instinctual reaction to snakes? (babies have no fear of them)

Or maybe that the notion of experience implies interpretation and is thus fundamentally different than pure awareness.

What is your story about "pure awareness"?
If you are touched somewhere, is it possible to become aware of the physical sensation without an explanation (story) arising about it?[

IF the me story is seen thru is there just another one there to replace it?

Yes. Of course.

A story of "not me"?

Maybe, but not necessarily. What are some alternatives?quote=CapnBoomer]
Dont need to imagine it, I am doing it now. That is, I am identifying with the story of a me and a Vince and a computer and a world.
[/quote]Hmm. No, if you are identifying with those stories, then you believe that they are what makes up Bennett. i think that you see through this delusion and are describing an illusion. Is this accurate?

with love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Yup Vince, I'm still in the game. Been a very busy week and you've given me a lot to consider. Get back to you soon.

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

ok