The Gate

Hi Rachel,

I am just writing something quick to let you know would like to carry on looking.

I am happy that you decided to continue :)

Yes the fear of non-existence is something I need to look at, and see that there is no me being afraid. This is a hard thing to do, but I will try to look the next time it arises.The non existence thought seems to carry such strong fear. But I am quite poorly at the moment, I started with a cold yesterday so feeling tired but if you manage to leave me any questions I will try to go over them as soon as possible,

I gave you lots of questions to work with in my last post. I copy them here for you.

You have to learn how to question your thoughts. Use my questions bellow as examples, and feel free to invent new questions on your own.

If the emotions are not present now, then you can bring them up lightly. You don’t have to make them too strong, just strong enough to be able to work with them.

. I am thinking how depressing and difficult this is..

The way out of this suffering, is to question every single thought that arise. “Is this thought true?” “Is this thought telling the truth?”

You can investigate:

Is this thought true?
Is this really true that ‘I am thinking this or that’?
Is this true that this is depressing and difficult?
Depressing and difficult for what/who?
What is it exactly that is felt depressed?
What is it that is finding this difficult?

If you investigate and questions thoughts like this, then all the seriousness of those stories lessen, and thus the suffering.

But now I see that all that is on offer is nothing, literally! And if that is how it is then I have to accept that..

Offer for what? What is it that wants something else than this offer?
Look for the one who is disappointed!
Look for the one who should accept this offer.
Look and see that there is nothing there.
There is only thoughts talking about disappointment and a me who is disappointed and should accept this offer.
Look and be free of the nightmares of thoughts.

And so if all I end up doing is going round in circles because I am afraid and this was not what I was expecting, then I Will just be wasting my time, but mostly I feel bad for wasting your time.

“I end up doing in going round in circles” – where is this I that is going round in circles?
See that this is just a thought appearing, nothing more. Nothing serious. Nothing real.

“I am afraid and this was not what I was expecting” – look if there is really an I that is afraid.
And look if there is REALLY a fear at all. What is fear? Isn’t it just an innocent sensation labelled as ‘fear’?

“this was not what I was expecting” – what is it that had expectations? Thoughts?

Vivien

Hi

.
Is this thought true?
Is this really true that ‘I am thinking this or that’?
Is this true that this is depressing and difficult?
Depressing and difficult for what/who?
What is it exactly that is felt depressed?
What is it that is finding this difficult?

No this just a thought. This thought is arising, and causes suffering only if a 'me' is believed in. If I stop and look directly at the thought and the fact that there is no thinker, no feeler, then this thought just dissipates, as it is recognised there is no one here to be depressed about anything.

. Offer for what? What is it that wants something else than this offer?
Look for the one who is disappointed!
Look for the one who should accept this offer.
Look and see that there is nothing there.
There is only thoughts talking about disappointment and a me who is disappointed and should accept this offer.

Again it's the 'belief' in me. When I take the 'i'' thought to actually stand for a seperate autonomous individual, as opposed to simply a thought or sensation, then there is disappointment and there is expectation. Somehow it seems I have held on to a belief that somehow I could end suffering, or I could end the search for 'no self', but somehow still retain a 'self', a seperate self that would then be happier, more at peace. But its really the belief in a seperate self that causes upset. When I strive on behalf of an imaginary me when I feel and take it personally I create a dimension where I am ripe to suffer. When things are seen as happening and arising and just being, without a personal me then there is a relaxation.

. “I end up doing in going round in circles” – where is this I that is going round in circles?
See that this is just a thought appearing, nothing more. Nothing serious. Nothing real.

“I am afraid and this was not what I was expecting” – look if there is really an I that is afraid.
And look if there is REALLY a fear at all. What is fear? Isn’t it just an innocent sensation labelled as ‘fear’?

“this was not what I was expecting” – what is it that had expectations? Thoughts?

Yes, this is becoming more clear, 'a thought', the 'i' thought, this morning as I watched my thoughts, sensations and how my mind constantly overlays these with 'i', i see that the assumption beneath this tiny little thought, creates a whole world of trouble.

As I said in the above answer, there is expectation and disappointment when a 'me' is believed in. These were bound up in the fear of no self. That somehow I would loose something if I saw that there was no me, but all I loose is a false belief. Also deep down I wanted to be a happier 'me', the desire for happiness or peace, I wanted this to be personal, an attachment or add on to the story of a personal me, only through doing this looking did it start to become really clear, a) that I had this intention and b) this was not at all what this type of looking was about. So it did make me have a bit of a panic, but this seems to have subsided now that I feel intent on seeing the inquiry through to the end.

So today again after spending some time looking at thought and sensation, I have become a bit stuck in the knower. Knower and known, feel like two things. When I look I can see there is no knower, I cannot even find a seperate thing called 'knowing', so then I look at the word 'i' , 'i am the knower' I know this is just a label, I look into where is this dividing line between knower and known. I cannot see one. I am struggling a bit to see what is holding this belief in place. So I will go back over the exercises we did on the knower and spend some time doing these today and I'll let you know how it goes.

With thanks, Rachel

Hi Rachel,

If I stop and look directly at the thought and the fact that there is no thinker,

What is it exactly that stops and looks directly at thought?

When I take the 'i'' thought to actually stand for a seperate autonomous individual,

What is it exactly that is taking the ‘I’ thought to stand for an individual?

Somehow it seems I have held on to a belief that somehow I could end suffering, or I could end the search for 'no self'

“I have held on to a belief” – what does the word ‘I’ points to in this sentence?

What is it exactly that could end up suffering?
Is there anything that could end up suffering?
Is there a subject that could end up suffering?

What is it that could end the search?

When I strive on behalf of an imaginary me

“When I strive on behalf of an imaginary me” – what does the word ‘I’ points to in this sentence?

Is there another you that could strive on behalf on an imaginary me?

when I feel and take it personally I create a dimension where I am ripe to suffer.

In your comments you are talking as if you had 2 selves.

The separate self (self 1), and the other self (self 2) which could feel and take the self 1 personally.
This self 2 has a power to create a dimension (by taking self 1 personally) where self 2 are ripe to suffer.
Can you see this?

Can you see that there is a belief here that there are 2 selves there?
Where is the other self (self 2) which could take self 1 personally?

Also deep down I wanted to be a happier 'me', the desire for happiness or peace, I wanted this to be personal, an attachment or add on to the story of a personal me

Who/what wanted to be a happier me?
Is there a wanter?

Is there anything that could desire for happiness or peace?
Is there anything that wanted this to be personal?

Rachel, you are not observing thoughts. You are taking the content of thoughts as reality. And not seeing them only as thoughts arising.

Can you see that these thoughts don’t mean anything?
Since there is nothing behind these thoughts wanting those claims?
Nothing behind those thoughts making them appear?

Can you see that all there is to you, to Rachel these thoughts, nothing else?

And if these thoughts wouldn’t be taken as reality but rather seeing that these are just words talking about a fictional character Rachel, then all the seeming suffering of this fictional character (Rachel) would gradually lessen and thin out?

Can you please tell me how you do looking? Do you do it during the day when the sense of self arises, or you do it just before replying back?

I am struggling a bit to see what is holding this belief in place. So I will go back over the exercises we did on the knower and spend some time doing these today and I'll let you know how it goes.

All right. Let me know what you find.

Vivien

. What is it exactly that stops and looks directly at thought?

Hi,

Nothing, I'm aware of the fact that when I look at something all that arises this is just a focal point/sensation, no me. There is nothing here to do looking but looking happens. But just for explaining purposes, I use the word I.

. What is it exactly that is taking the ‘I’ thought to stand for an individual?

Again this depends on whether I am believing any thought at all. If I believe a thought say, I am afraid, and take this to be true, as I did the other day, then I fail to question any of the following thoughts. I was just trying to explain what happened the other day when I was struggling with fear when looking. If I am actually looking at phenomena arising or seeing it in the moment, then I can see there is no me and also I can see that there is no looker.

. “I have held on to a belief” – what does the word ‘I’ points to in this sentence?

What is it exactly that could end up suffering?
Is there anything that could end up suffering?
Is there a subject that could end up suffering?

What is it that could end the search?

On looking, no there is 'no one' that can end up suffering. The story of a me suffering, is just a story, a string of thoughts and feelings, sometimes 'i' buy into that story, but if courage arises then the thought is seen to be what it is, just words, saying 'me, me, me' but there's no me.

.“When I strive on behalf of an imaginary me” – what does the word ‘I’ points to in this sentence?

Again just a thought about a me that doesn't exist. I do see this. This moment has passed, I was trying to explain this was just a panic moment, it doesn't feel relevant, or true now.

In your comments you are talking as if you had 2 selves.

The separate self (self 1), and the other self (self 2) which could feel and take the self 1 personally.
This self 2 has a power to create a dimension (by taking self 1 personally) where self 2 are ripe to suffer.
Can you see this?

Can you see that there is a belief here that there are 2 selves there?
Where is the other self (self 2) which could take self 1 personally?.

Yes, I'm aware there are not two 'mes' , there isn't even one me. Yes it's clear. The 'im who is aware of this fact is also not a personal 'im', there is just knowing, and labelling of experience with an 'i'.

Who/what wanted to be a happier me?
Is there a wanter?

Is there anything that could desire for happiness or peace?
Is there anything that wanted this to be personal?.

No wanter, no one to desire anything.

. Can you see that these thoughts don’t mean anything?
Since there is nothing behind these thoughts wanting those claims?
Nothing behind those thoughts making them appear?

Can you see that all there is to you, to Rachel these thoughts, nothing else?

And if these thoughts wouldn’t be taken as reality but rather seeing that these are just words talking about a fictional character Rachel, then all the seeming suffering of this fictional character (Rachel) would gradually lessen and thin out?

Yes I can now, I was struggling with the non existence thought, but yes I can see this just a thought. And yes I have been taking certain thoughts to be true especially if accompanied by strong feelings. Mostly it's the 'me' but of the thought that is bothersome and to keep seeing that there is no me, when thought says me, remember to look, and see this is false information.
There is no me to struggle and there is no me to believe certain thoughts, however, the phenomena of thoughts arising and being believed has happened and may still happen just as the I thought and belief still arises and happens, even though there is no one there, like you said with consistent looking this will continue to thin out. Fear may arise and this may activate a strong sense of me or a strong me story and at times perhaps for a little while I go along with this, until the story changes, and I look at this phenomena and see 'no me' all of this will happen without a personal me, even if at times I still believe act or say there is a me.

. Can you please tell me how you do looking? Do you do it during the day when the sense of self arises, or you do it just before replying back?

Mostly, I read what you write in the morning then when I remember through the day I look at whatever is is we are looking at. Or practice the questions. Then in the evening I will go back over the questions afresh answering either directly in the moment or sharing.a bit of earlier experience.

I am struggling a bit to see what is holding this belief in place. So I will go back over the exercises we did on the knower and spend some time doing these today and I'll let you know how it goes.
All right. Let me know what you find..

So have been looking at this knower or awareness today, and realised imagination is playing a strong role in this thought/belief. Ae of knower is , well there is no actual experience but thought says, words like space, awareness, emptiness, in my mind somehow it is believed these are actual experienceable phenomena. But when I look, knowing cannot be known without a sensation or thought to know, so knowing and known are not seperate, I only know that I know because something is being experienced right now. Does knowing exist independently, or as some teachers might say, pure awareness or consciousness, can it exist as a stand alone object and be known, well I would say not in ae. Then there are thoughts arising, saying 'you are the knower' , firstly there is no me, secondly, what is the knower? in reality I cannot find it's existence. I will continue with this particular line of looking, as I want to make sure this is clear, it seems I may need to look at this over and over till it sinks in.

Thanks Rachel

Morning Vivian, hope you are well,

Just dropping a quick note. So last night I saw, there is no knower, this feels clear, imagination had been playing a bigger role in this than I had recognised. Once this was seen clearly, this was simply imagination, it collapsed.

So then I noticed, there is a sense of I still in deliberate thinking, as if at times 'I am' directing the line of thought. So to day I will be looking at this.

Regards Rachel

Hi Rachel,

Just dropping a quick note. So last night I saw, there is no knower, this feels clear, imagination had been playing a bigger role in this than I had recognised. Once this was seen clearly, this was simply imagination, it collapsed.

This is very good. You did a great looking :)

So then I noticed, there is a sense of I still in deliberate thinking, as if at times 'I am' directing the line of thought. So to day I will be looking at this.

Good, just keep looking. You’re doing very well. You’ve learned how to look alone :)

Let me know what happens.

Vivien

Hi Rachel,

How is looking going on?

Vivien

Morning, sorry for the delay in replying, the looking is going well. I'll tell you where I'm at and see what you think. For the most part, no 'me' seems obvious, when a strong sense of 'me' comes to attention, then I look, the me belief is generally seen through quickly, there has been a deeper realisation that thoughts are not trustworthy when it comes to explaining what is happening.
. I realised I had still been expecting that the 'feeling' of me should have disappeared, but these are just contractions in the body, and not evidence of a 'seperate' me. Thoughts , sensation and movement dance together creating , then a belief thought that 'i' was at the centre of it all, directing and experiencing, would arise, often this was taken for granted, but direct looking has shown this is not the case. Continual looking is weakening the 'i' thought or rather belief in the 'i' thought. I do feel confident now in moving forward, continuing to go through the exercises when 'i' sense is strong. When I started looking I was looking for a 'me' although to some degree I already knew there was 'no me', but I was sure I would eliminate the false 'mes' and end up eventually with the 'true me' which was going to be something like, 'pure awareness' which I imagined to be a seperate tangible experience of nothing (obviously hadn't really thought that through!). But I no longer believe that and am not expecting a 'real me' to pop out, and the last couple of days I realise 'i' am feeling more relaxed there is more attention to this moment as it is. Or to describe it another way, there is less contraction in the body, and an immediateness to all experience, as it is not so much filtered through an 'i' or masked by thought about the experience. So yes for the most part things are going going well, but I am finding at times doubt when strong sense of 'me' arises, but automatically I know this is a trick of the mind, so I return to looking or exercise if I need to.

Thanks Rachel

Hi Rachel,
Your last post was a really pleasant read :)

there has been a deeper realisation that thoughts are not trustworthy when it comes to explaining what is happening.

Great! It’s very important to see this.

I realised I had still been expecting that the 'feeling' of me should have disappeared, but these are just contractions in the body, and not evidence of a 'seperate' me.

The sense of self doesn’t have to go away, and it probably won’t. But whose problem would be that? :)

So expecting that the sense of self will stop appearing only brings disappointment.

Here is a youtube video about a visual illusion of 8 balls moving in a straight line, creating an illusion as if the balls were rotating in a circle. Let’s say that the illusion of the rotating circle is the self. Each ball represents the building blocks of the self (like thought label ‘I’, sensations, visual thoughts, etc). When looking happens, meaning that you follow only one ball, then it can be seen that these balls are not moving in a circle but in a straight line. But when not looking, the illusion of the circle (self) can show up again. However, upon each looking (focusing on once ball) it can be seen that there is no self (moving circle) there at all.

So the only thing that changes is that it can be seen that those balls are actually not rotating in a circle, the circle is just an illusion. But the illusion of the rotating circle still can arise, just as the illusion of the self.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t7kwy3rN4k

Thoughts , sensation and movement dance together creating , then a belief thought that 'i' was at the centre of it all, directing and experiencing, would arise, often this was taken for granted, but direct looking has shown this is not the case.

Nice looking.

Continual looking is weakening the 'i' thought or rather belief in the 'i' thought.

Yes. So continual looking doesn’t eradicate the appearance of the ‘I’ thought, but rather the belief in the self.

The I-thought doesn’t have to go away. It’s just an innocent thought, there is no problem with it.

But I no longer believe that and am not expecting a 'real me' to pop out, and the last couple of days I realise 'i' am feeling more relaxed there is more attention to this moment as it is.

Very good.

So yes for the most part things are going going well, but I am finding at times doubt when strong sense of 'me' arises, but automatically I know this is a trick of the mind, so I return to looking or exercise if I need to.

Yes, doubting thoughts can arise out of habit, but with each looking it can be seen what is really happening.

Here are some questions to see if is there anything that is not completely clear. Please answer what's true for you right now, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer.

Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there an ‘experiencer’?
Is there a ‘thinker’?

Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Vivien

Hi,

. Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

No!

.
Is there an ‘experiencer’?
Is there a ‘thinker’?

No. Experience/sensation is. Thoughts are. There is nothing outside of these phenomena that experiences or creates.

. Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?

No

.
Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?

No

. Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

No

.
Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

No, everything is much clearer now. I continue with the looking at actual experience on a daily basis, as the I impulse arises, especially if strong! emotions or thought stories come up. And today I had to check the ' looker' too, to see that this is simply a thought and a change of focus/sensation, 'no one' is looking. This been very helpful, Thank you.

Regards Rachel

Hi Rachel,

This been very helpful, Thank you

You are very welcome :)

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

I read the questions, I want to spend some time and answer as fully as possible. As I have a busy day I just wanted to let you know I'll reply tomorrow evening.

Thanks Rachel

Hi Vivien,

.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, and no.

.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

It's a thought, that starts 'i' or 'me' or something along these lines. The thought arises, unexamined, this thought is believed to point to something or someone, generally in the form of a doer, creator or contoller.

So a feeling arises, say anger, then the thought I am angry comes also. Contracted sensation, labelled anger by thought, fuels the belief that somehow there is an entity experiencing, anger, or thinking angry thoughts. I imagine it starts in childhood, when we are told over and over again who we are and what we can or should do by others who also believe they are a seperate autonomous somebody inhabiting a body, and it seems that the body and brain are wired perfectly for us to buy into this illusion. As it appears our bodies and at times our emotions respond to the thoughts, we are told are created by us.

.3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is more relaxation in the body, life in general feels lighter. The burden of constantly looking for this experience of pure consciousness or awareness, has finally been seen as ridiculous. Now when the feeling of me arises I know this is simply habit, a quick look at thought or sensation and I can see this belief holds no validity. Thoughts are a little less, and there is a greater ease and naturalness to being in the present moment.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? .

At some point it just became clear, 'thoughts about me were untrue'. I kept looking looking to thought for answers, only to see that my belief in thoughts , or my belief in 'me' was the problem. It took a few realisations of this and suddenly thoughts were seen to be , just thoughts, they weren't pointing to anything real, just sensation and imagination, nothing more. The realisation started to speed up the ability to look, until now it is quite habitual.

.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

All are thoughts, there can be no decision making, intention, free will or control, because all imply a doer, and there's not one. But still these phenomena arise, and decisions appear to be made, control appears to be exercised. So tonight I chose to answer these questions, or basically the thought arose, I need to answer those questions tonight. Why did that thought arise? I don't know, because 'I' had nothing to do with it (and I don't know enough about the brain and memory to really understand how this all happens in actuality) so answering only from actual experience, the thought arose, the body moved, contractions and sensations are felt. Me feelings/sensations and thoughts both arise as I type, as the decision to type was made and even as the thoughts or repliess come, but the difference now is they are not believed.

(Vivien I am going to submit these questions and continue, as I came on the website earlier and had few problems, so don't want to loose these answers.)

.b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Gosh this question made me stop for a moment! Nothing! There is no 'me' here to place responsibility on, thoughts happen, actions happening or not happening, happen, self control happens or it does not. When each phenomena is looked at the top and bottom of it is there is no seperate individual in control, so there is no seperate individual to take responsibility.

So returning to the ongoing story of my chocolate addiction :). The thought arises, 'i fancy some chocolate', at the same time there may be some bodily sensation, labelled craving, thoughts may arise, trying to dissuade 'me' from eating chocolate, again just happening, but likely at some stage contractions are felt and the body starts moving towards the kitchen cupboard and chocolate is eaten, and the sensations of eating chocolate and 'enjoying' eating chocolate are labelled with a 'me'. But at no time did a me create the 'chocolate' thoughts, or bodily sensations, nowhere was there a me that 'decided' to get up and get some chocolate, it happened, the body moved, contractions are felt, they may be labelled 'me', 'im', I am going, I am walking, but these are thoughts over sensations.

.

6) Anything to add?

No, just to say again, thank you, I know I said this in an earlier post. But flipping this investigation from one of looking for something to realising there is no seperate me, really has made such a difference, particularly these last few days, as the arguments have dropped and the looking/seeing happens so much more quickly and naturally. My mind feels so much more at peace. For now, I will still need to do looking, but often now it's simply a matter of seeing the thought and the whole illusion quickly dissolves.

With thanks Rachel

Hi Rachel,

just to say again, thank you,

You are very welcome :)

Thank you for your responses. I am going to get other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a day or so. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

If there are no further questions, I will let you know and you will then be invited to the LU FB groups.

Vivien