Looking for a clearer look

[Anastacia42]

Good morning!

Excellent Work & proofs. Yes.

Go for it: There is/are many me's.

As for sense of self, didn't I share this with you about lost keys? The reason you think there's a sense of self is only because you believe in your thoughts.

That is why we are learning a method for questioning thoughts.

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them
there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self -
just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different.

This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

I'm pretty sure I posted that to you before.

Love,

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy, Yes you did share that, and thanks for sharing again. So the sense of illusory self will continue and in this case it's just thought saying that the illusory sense is an existing or sense of a real self. Is that right?

I've been doing a back to back driving day so couldn't do the exercise yet but last night I was looking at your response and checking my experience and I had a sense of the sense of personal self drop away and the illusory sense become an insignificant part of experience. It felt like experiencing was one complete thing and that separating out a part of it as a me felt illogical and artificially done by a silly belief. This was followed by a deep relaxation in the body and then thoughts rushed in and really strongly started with stories of wow this is my no self etc.

It felt authentic and there is a question of whether that was a oneness "experience" or is that seeing no self.

Love,
Sid

[Anastacia42]

Hi Sid!

So the sense of illusory self will continue and in this case it's just thought saying that the illusory sense is an existing or sense of a real self. Is that right?

Yes, or put more simply, "self" is only content of thought and completely made up, a fiction, a story, - you could even call it a lie.

that separating out a part of it as a me felt illogical and artificially done by a silly belief. This was followed by a deep relaxation in the body and then thoughts rushed in and really strongly started with stories of wow this is my no self etc.

It felt authentic and there is a question of whether that was a oneness "experience" or is that seeing no self.

I'm not aware of any difference between a "oneness experience" and seeing no self.

However, I do know what you mean. I had many many many experiences over many years that I didn't understand as seeing no self until that was pointed out to me. I used to call it seeing God and now I don't even have a god belief.

What seems truest to me now, is that these experiences are all similar or the same. The only difference is the context in which we interpret them after the fact.

It happens and then thought takes over again, as it just did with your SEEING. People will interpret those thoughts in the context of what they understand. To me, that is why LU is so valuable - it's the cleanest way of interpreting without stories, without dogma, without beliefs and mythologies.

Even with seeing no self here at LU, there are many, many stories to unravel. What you just experienced is only the first step. It sounds real to me, but only you know what you are aware of.

Do you want to continue with proofs of 'There are many me's" right now? Or would you like to answer final questions? Either way, we can do both (one at a time) if you like. Or you may not need to continue the proofs.

Answering final questions will show us where there is anything that needs to be clarified & once confirmed, you have passed the gateless gate. Further Work of BK can be done on Facebook in Aftercare groups or with me, although, I would like to finish the "There is a me" exploration here, if you still want it

I am betting you laughed when you read that sentence, "There is a me" again. Did you?

Love,

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy!

Even with seeing no self here at LU, there are many, many stories to unravel. What you just experienced is only the first step. It sounds real to me, but only you know what you are aware of. 

Yes it felt real and less mystical and more logical than other experiences I've had and I agree that the LU framework keeps things so simple that the thinking mind can't create too many complex stories. It's like the hidden secret in this world.

Do you want to continue with proofs of 'There are many me's" right now? Or would you like to answer final questions? Either way, we can do both (one at a time) if you like. Or you may not need to continue the proofs.

If my mind had it it's way it'll never want to stop trying to search for more things, but I feel like it's clear enough to take a shot at the final questions to see if there any unclarity!

Answering final questions will show us where there is anything that needs to be clarified & once confirmed, you have passed the gateless gate. Further Work of BK can be done on Facebook in Aftercare groups or with me, although, I would like to finish the "There is a me" exploration here, if you still want it 

Good to know. Yes the groups and more BK sounds great

I am betting you laughed when you read that sentence, "There is a me" again. Did you? 

Hehe yes, so much looking for the me in so many ways.

Love
Sid

[Anastacia42]

Okay, here goes.

Answer thoughtfully & clearly from what you have SEEN (not from thinking) as you have been.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love,

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy, I'll take a couple of days to sit with these and look before getting back.

Love
Sid

[Anastacia42]

Hi Sid,

Sounds good.

Love,

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Just a quick note that the LU Web site has been experiencing high traffic due to bots or something. At times it may be down or slow while this is fixed.

Thanks,

[Philosoraptr]

Thanks for letting me know Stacy!

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy, Hope you weren't expecting a small post :p

Okay, here goes. 

Answer thoughtfully & clearly from what you have SEEN (not from thinking) as you have been. 

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate self that can be found. Although identification as a me comes back often when the thought stories take over. There was never a me but just an identification with thought as the story of who the I was. The de identification process also doesn't have a doer or self. Just reading and following exercises and seeing.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 

There's what's happening, which is a body moving, things happening and sensations being perceived. Thoughts come in and take credit for specific parts of the happening and relate them to the me or an I and start judging them from that point. Thought also judges other thoughts and takes credit for activities along with providing reasons and rationale for them. A story is created this way. Thoughts related to "I am looking", "I am investgating thought", "I am present and aware" continue to be very sticky but are seen through as thoughts.

The separate self is a thought based narrative which is strongly activated when things come up that cause bodily discomfort or contraction and then thought stories come up blaming an other person or wanting to change the situation. The story also spins "an other" who thinks bad things about this I narrative.

Being aware of thoughts without identification or belief in the content results in seeing it as an appearance in/to the presence-awareness which is here now.

It starts when language is learnt and puts labels on specific parts of experience and calls it an I or me and is reinforced by the world.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels like having an escape hatch when thoughts start attacking with a narrative and then seeing that I am not a thought and the contents are a story. The difference now is also that when a thought story starts, especially if it's boasting about accomplishments of a self it results in a contraction in the chest and an uncomfortable feeling of lying which then triggers a seeing of the story. It's like hearing an imaginary ranting voice.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

The question what would I be without the thought "there is me" resontated strongly with pointing to the simple fact of being aware and being here as a more primary and true identity. Not sure if I've fully left the thought "I am aware" go. I'm expecting that there's a feeling of emptiness that's supposed to be there when that thought is let go maybe? (As i read this sentence that was written yesterday, it feels more like the rant voice asking in thought for more proof)

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decision: Alternative appear through circumstances and the best one is picked. Sometimes the choices come from thought or from others/situations but a decision happens.

Intention: there may be a thought that says to do something but it won't be acted on until it is. Like thought saying "get out of bed" it doesn't happen until it happens either due to some other thought spontaneously appearing that sticks and movement will happen. Motivation also is because certain thoughts generate a feeling of excitement and a decision happens to do it. Like the decision to join LU was because of a strong realization experience that happened while reading a random non duality book on Amazon.

Free Will: Choices appear and choosing happens.

Things happen based on conditioning of the body/mind but even the conditioning is due to certain thoughts that stuck or circumstances so everything is just a mechanistic reaction based on some known rules and other mysterious rules.

6) Anything to add?

The habits of reacting to others as individuals with doership is strong and harder to see as directly as it's seen with thought.

Looking forward to the feedback!

Love,
Sid

[Anastacia42]

LU Site has been timing out and not loading for the past hour. In now, so want you to know in case can't finish responses.

[Anastacia42]

Also, SAVE A COPY of your reply somewhere else before posting!

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Let's see if I can post w/o timing out.

Replies are concise an simple when we are clear. It is thought that wants long-winded discussion to distract from SEEING.

Question 1. Looks pretty clear. Notice how it is the shortest one.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
There's what's happening, which is a body moving,

Please refer to the body exercises on December 30, January 1, redoing them if you need to, and then look at this content of thought called, "body moving."

The rest of the reply to question 2, pretty much, yes. Story is created by thinking. Starts when language is learned.

3) is good. (Also fairly short.) It IS an imaginary ranting voice. That is all it is, all it ever has been - can you SEE that?

4)

I'm expecting that there's a feeling of emptiness that's supposed to be there when that thought is let go maybe? (As i read this sentence that was written yesterday, it feels more like the rant voice asking in thought for more proof)

Basically, good & you caught that you were believing content of thought.

Remember, fear and expectations are the primary things that prevent SEEING.

5)

the best one is picked.

By whom? How? Describe this mechanism in detail.

Sometimes the choices come from thought or from others/situations

happens either due to some other thought spontaneously appearing that sticks and movement will happen. Motivation also is because certain thoughts generate a feeling of excitement and a decision happens to do it. Like the decision to join LU was because of a strong realization experience that happened while reading a random non duality book on Amazon.

Go back to the Palm Flipping exercise, December 18, and the exercise with raising a hand or taking a drink & review those that follow. Re-do them, if necessary. They apply to all of these questions about decisions, intention, free will, choice, & control.

Did you find any mechanism you can point to about decisions, intention, free will, choice, or control? Or did they just happen? Look very carefully.

Be thorough in LOOKING (Still don't care about content of thought! Colored Socks Exercise.)

Free Will: Choices appear and choosing happens.

CLEAREST & SHORTEST! Perfect.

Things happen based on conditioning of the body/mind but even the conditioning is due to certain thoughts that stuck or circumstances so everything is just a mechanistic reaction based on some known rules and other mysterious rules.

Huh? What mechanism? Point to it? Describe it in detail.

Okay, this was very helpful. Clear in places and muddy in places.

FIRST, please re-read your entire thread over once.

THEN, go back and re-read the exercises mentioned on each of these above.

THEN, ask questions, if you have any, in a post of nothing but your questions.

THEN, post another full set of clear, concise replies about what you have SEEN.

Pretend this whole post is blue. I'm going to hit "submit" quickly.

Sending love,

[Philosoraptr]

Thanks for the feedback Stacy! Going to dig in and I have a couple of days of no network ahead but will be looking at all this.

Love,
Sid

[Anastacia42]

Got it.

Thank you,