Path or No Path

[Canfora]

Hello Peter! Thank you for your reply. Glad to know fear isn't an issue.

That's the thing, it's understood conceptually and intellectually there's no "I".

Good.

Think about a pink elephant.
Do you understand the pink elephant isn't real?
If you do, do you expect to have a "no pink elephant" experience?
How could that happen if there is no pink elephant?

If you do understand there is no I, the same way I suppose you understand there is no Santa or pink elephants, why are you waiting for a "no self" experience to happen?

What are you expecting to happen?

However, "I", think it may not be authentic for, at times, social anxiety can arise when there are others. Not all the time, just specific people or situations.

Do you think this shouldn't be happening? Why not? Would you say some experiences belong to the scope of "not being a separate self" and others belong to the scope of "this shows a self must be real?

Have you been looking for a self? Do you understand what looking is?

Take care,
C

[pwsamadhi]

Think about a pink elephant.
Do you understand the pink elephant isn't real?
If you do, do you expect to have a "no pink elephant" experience?
How could that happen if there is no pink elephant?

Ah, good analogy.

Do you think this shouldn't be happening? Why not? Would you say some experiences belong to the scope of "not being a separate self" and others belong to the scope of "this shows a self must be real?

Is this where my perception is incorrect? My assumption was based on the following, if there no self that is separate, I thought one would always be at home and at peace regardless of what circumstance one is entangled in. Because there's no self to be affected and no other to be affected by. I was assuming that a self is required to feel certain things like fear from other. I suppose you're implying this assumption is invalid. So all experiences are just experiences and basically require no tangible self (since it can't be found anyway). Think I'm starting to understand more.

Have you been looking for a self? Do you understand what looking is?

A self can't be found. There is only consciousness or awareness of sense faculty experiences.

[Canfora]

My assumption was based on the following, if there no self that is separate, I thought one would always be at home and at peace regardless of what circumstance one is entangled in.

If there is no self what is this one you mentioned that would always be at home and at peace?

Most people think that if they see they aren't a self they will arrive at a "at home and at peace state". That's connected with our desire to avoid some bits of our experience. This path is seen as a way to avoid all the unpleasantness of being a human. That's not my experience.

A self can't be found. There is only consciousness or awareness of sense faculty experiences.

Do you understand what looking is and how it's done? Describe what you do when looking -- so that I can understand what you've been doing.

Take care,
C

[pwsamadhi]

If there is no self what is this one you mentioned that would always be at home and at peace?

I see your point.

Do you understand what looking is and how it's done? Describe what you do when looking -- so that I can understand what you've been doing.

No, what did you means specifically by "looking". I've done self-inquiry and could not find a self. I've tried looking for an "I" but see it's only a thought or concept.

[Canfora]

I've done self-inquiry and could not find a self.

How do you do self-inquiry? Try to describe the steps you take while doing it.

I've tried looking for an "I" but see it's only a thought or concept.

Imagine you want me to do what you did: tell me what you did to look and tell me also to what did you look at.

[pwsamadhi]

How do you do self-inquiry? Try to describe the steps you take while doing it.

Self-inquiry is the practice popularized by well known saint Ramana Maharashi. Essentially, any time one makes a reference to "I", "me", "my" or goes through any experience that feels personal, the seeker then raises the question "Who am I?". "Who or where is this I that's feeling such and such, or thinking so and so?" It's a pointer back to awareness and the present state. The goal of the inquiry is to seek out the source of "I" or thought and to see where it arises from.

Imagine you want me to do what you did: tell me what you did to look and tell me also to what did you look at.

I've done the practice above. I've tried observing thoughts. I've tried looking for a self located somewhere in the body and could not find it. I was able to see that this self arises as a thought. Usually "I", "me", or "my" is the thought. I realized those thoughts are just concepts and these thoughts arise and pass. It appears that there's this "I" that controls action, but it is also known that thoughts and action arise spontaneously. That is also seen.

[Canfora]

It's a pointer back to awareness and the present state.

To me this is a little like saying a fish has to be conscious of the water. What for? Can the fish not be in the water, even if it's not aware of what's going on?
Can you not be aware?
Can you not be present?
Try to shut down awareness and try not being present. Can you do that?
When you aren't focusing in being aware and present, does that mean something is wrong, something needs to be done?
Are daydreaming, planning, imagining, etc, bad things to do?
You may practice focusing in awareness and the present state, but does that mean that when that practice apparently fails and you go back to old habits - getting distracted or anxious, etc - there is something wrong with you?

I've done the practice above. I've tried observing thoughts. I've tried looking for a self located somewhere in the body and could not find it. I was able to see that this self arises as a thought. Usually "I", "me", or "my" is the thought. I realized those thoughts are just concepts and these thoughts arise and pass. It appears that there's this "I" that controls action, but it is also known that thoughts and action arise spontaneously. That is also seen.

Okay. And did you also look to what isn't "made by thoughts"?
What exists is here now.
What happens if you try to find a you in what exists, in what surrounds you?
Can you see a you?
What do you see rigth now? What's present?

Take care,
C

[pwsamadhi]

Can you not be aware?

In sleep or when not mindful. Although, not being mindful is still only in awareness.

Can you not be present?

No, it's always now. And only ever now.

Try to shut down awareness and try not being present. Can you do that?

No. Only in sleep.

When you aren't focusing in being aware and present, does that mean something is wrong, something needs to be done?

Not necessarily. Just means I'm not mindful.

Are daydreaming, planning, imagining, etc, bad things to do?

No.

You may practice focusing in awareness and the present state, but does that mean that when that practice apparently fails and you go back to old habits - getting distracted or anxious, etc - there is something wrong with you?

It's not right nor wrong. Anxiousness is just an unpleasant emotion.

Okay. And did you also look to what isn't "made by thoughts"?

Awareness. Consciousness. And the rest of reality.

What happens if you try to find a you in what exists, in what surrounds you?

There's just existence all around.

Can you see a you?

No. I do see this body that "we" typically refer to as a "me".

What do you see right now? What's present?

A body in an environment, typing on this screen.

[Canfora]

Can you not be aware?
In sleep or when not mindful.

Can you be aware of not being aware?

What do you see right now? What's present?
A body in an environment, typing on this screen.

You don't see a self? What does that mean?

[pwsamadhi]

Can you be aware of not being aware?

Not while I'm not aware. But at some point, awareness kicks in and I realize I was lost in thought or was not mindful.

Similarly, in deep sleep, I'm not aware. But upon waking, I realize I was unaware.

You don't see a self? What does that mean?

That there's no permanent lasting abiding self. A three year old is not the same entity or being as what the three year becomes as a teenager and eventually as an adult as well. Not only does the entity undergo physical changes, but emotional, mental, and personality changes.

[Canfora]

That there's no permanent lasting abiding self.

Does that mean you can find a self that doesn't has those characteristics? A impermanent, etc, self?

A three year old is not the same entity or being as what the three year becomes as a teenager and eventually as an adult as well. Not only does the entity undergo physical changes, but emotional, mental, and personality changes.

What do you mean by entity? How do you know there is such a thing?

[pwsamadhi]

Does that mean you can find a self that doesn't has those characteristics? A impermanent, etc, self?

No. There's an illusory self that comes into being every moment though.

What do you mean by entity? How do you know there is such a thing?

I suppose anything like an animal or human, I'd consider a living entity. I know from observation of the sense faculties.

[Canfora]

There's an illusory self that comes into being every moment though.

How does something illusory come into being? Can you give me some examples of what do you mean?

I suppose anything like an animal or human, I'd consider a living entity. I know from observation of the sense faculties.

When you use the senses you can find an entity? Can you describe this entity please?

[pwsamadhi]

How does something illusory come into being? Can you give me some examples of what do you mean?

The thought "I", "me", "my". The thought, "I am the body", "This is me", "These are my thoughts" etc...

When you use the senses you can find an entity? Can you describe this entity please?

Given that I defined an entity as human, animal, or living organism. We can use human as an example.

With sight, I can see that a human entity has color, depth, and various parts: hair, eyes, mouth, a body, limbs, etc.
With sound, I can hear that a human entity has a voice as well as bodily sounds
With touch, I can feel a human entity's skin, hair, nails, etc
so on with taste and smell as well.

With thought, the collective experience is labeled as "human", "entity", or "person". This is so that there's a common naming convention developed by language to communicate shared/common concepts.

These collective experiences with the senses make up this living entity we call human or person. Same applies for any object experienced. Each has a property of the senses.

Something I posted prior in regards to knowing something based on the collection of senses:
Per guide:

Does color know anything about facial emotions?
Does taste know anything about facial emotions?
Does smell know anything g about facial emotions?
Does sensation know anything about facial emotions?
Does sound know anything about facial emotions?
Does thought know anything about facial emotions?

My response:

Not in its individual faculty, but collectively the experience is known. It's like the elephant with the blind men, each knowing one part but not knowing the whole until it's put together. Like the elephant to the blind man, is the experience to the individual sense faculties.

[Canfora]

Given that I defined an entity as human, animal, or living organism. We can use human as an example.

With sight, I can see that a human entity has color, depth, and various parts: hair, eyes, mouth, a body, limbs, etc.
With sound, I can hear that a human entity has a voice as well as bodily sounds
With touch, I can feel a human entity's skin, hair, nails, etc
so on with taste and smell as well.

Are you saying the body is a entity? Is the body a separate self?

What is perceiving the body?