Stuck in the mud

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

if I was repeating that thought then it must be a ‘self’ directing my mind to repeat the sentence.

Let's check this out again.....

Take any phrase, maybe "sitting here now". You're going to repeat it half a dozen times or so ... while doing this, is there 'self' directing operations?

You are witnessing a 'willed action' - does willed action need a 'self' doing the 'willing'? Or is it more like wind, that can be 'blowing' without any entity 'doing' the blowing?

is it a thought or is it just words in my head?

is there a difference?

When I pick up a cup I don’t have to say “pick up that cup” in my mind, I just pick up the cup. So noticing the thought ‘there is no self’ needs nothing more than to be noticed.

Yes, lovely observation!

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

Sorry I didn't post yesterday I have had a virus/flu for a few days and yesterday my temperature went up and I felt very odd. Not as bad today but still foggy headed.

"sitting here now". You're going to repeat it half a dozen times

As I repeat the phrase there is 'no self' directing this and a sense of relief when I realise, as you pointed out, it is a 'willed action'. It was a relief with a sense of "of course it is".

I seem to keep tripping up with this because there is this also a nagging thought which says "well you repeated the phrase and so if 'you' are 'willing' an action aren't 'you' willing it? And if it is 'you' who is willing it 'you' are the 'you' entity orchestrating the phrase rather than just experiencing it".

I have been noticing lots of stories in experience. One strong one was during the night when I woke feeling very strange and feelings of panic arose. All sorts of stories took hold including this was because the 'self' was starting to loosen. Later I realised that it was physical, my temperature had gone up and my blood pressure dropped and the stories were just stories. Another was an email from a relative that was criticising without actually saying it directly. I came up with all sorts of stories from I didn't want to see them again, I would ignore them and then I noticed that I was adding all these stories to the situation. So am I keeping a watch on this.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

I'm not sure whether we're on the same page yet with 'willing'. As you say: "I seem to keep tripping up with this" so perhaps I'm getting mixed messages!

When a willed effort is being made, is there, in experience rather than thought, any separation between 'you' doing the 'willing', and the activity?

Where is the 'you' in experience? Is it anything more than an idea added on afterwards?

You have discovered earlier that, in direct experience, there is hearing without any separation between 'hearer' and 'heard', and that it is only thought that create the ideas of 'hearer' and 'heard'... Looking at your experience of a 'willed action', is this really any different?

If a thought-story arises "there must be a me to do the willing", recognise this as a thought-story, and see if it is actually the case in experience.... Is the thought-story insistent? If so, can you see what is driving it? Is it being driven by fear of the alternative, for example?

I have been noticing lots of stories in experience [...] I keeping a watch on this.

Good work!

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

When a willed effort is being made, is there, in experience rather than thought, any separation between 'you' doing the 'willing', and the activity?

When I put on my glasses I just pick them up and put them on my face. There is no separation between me doing the willing and the activity of them getting onto my face.

The question

"is the you in experience anything more than an idea added on afterwards"

The confusion here for me is that when I repeat a phrase in my head eg "sitting here now" this is a willed instruction to do something. So I repeat the phrase and this brings me back to the 'me' doing this because I experience the phrase in my head, because I am telling myself to do it. Because it is happening in the present it doesn't seem to be an idea added on after. Where as when I pick up my glasses and put them on, it just happens.

So is this a thought-story "a me doing the willing?" Yes its a thought story that is persistent. I am not sure what is driving it. Each time I come back to it I still come up with a 'me doing the willing" but only in an activity with an instruction to myself eg repeating a phrase. So this is tripping me up again and again.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

The confusion here for me is that when I repeat a phrase in my head eg "sitting here now" this is a willed instruction to do something. So I repeat the phrase and this brings me back to the 'me' doing this because I experience the phrase in my head, because I am telling myself to do it. Because it is happening in the present it doesn't seem to be an idea added on after. Where as when I pick up my glasses and put them on, it just happens.

So is this a thought-story "a me doing the willing?" Yes its a thought story that is persistent. I am not sure what is driving it. Each time I come back to it I still come up with a 'me doing the willing" but only in an activity with an instruction to myself eg repeating a phrase. So this is tripping me up again and again.

It's good to have something to focus on - let's see how we can explore this some more....

I am telling myself to do it [...] an activity with an instruction to myself

Let's look at how this whole situation comes about. This is quite a fun exercise.... put aside a few minutes for it.

So you're going to 'tell yourself to do it' ('it' being repeating the phrase "sitting here now" a few times), HOWEVER, you are not going to 'tell yourself to do it' immediately at the start of the exercise. In fact, you won't decide in advance exactly when you are going to 'tell yourself to do it' ..... just sit for a while, and at some point, 'tell yourself to do it', and get on with it.

Observe closely how the whole thing unfolds.

Where does the 'willing' come from?

Is there a 'me doing the willing'?

If so:
- how do you recognise it? what is it made up of in direct experience?
- is it always there, or does 'me' come into existence at a certain point?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

..... just sit for a while, and at some point, 'tell yourself to do it', and get on with it.

Observe closely how the whole thing unfolds

.

At first parts of the phrase were in my mind and I stopped this by focussing on something else, but then the phrase repeated itself three times. I don't think I told myself to do it, somehow the decision to repeat the phrase just happened.

I did it again, but this time I was able to decide when to repeat the phrase. So this must have be a willed action but from where? The willed action came from though. No it can't have come from thought, it was a willed action but I don't know where it came from. The willed action was the decision to repeat a phrase. In direct experience the willed action decided when to repeat the phrase, but I bring the 'me' into existence to explain how this happens. But the 'me' must be a thought.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

Good observations there.

I did it again, but this time I was able to decide when to repeat the phrase. So this must have be a willed action but from where?

You've discovered before that thoughts just arise, "I" does not make them happen .... I assume this is this still clear?

Is a 'willed action' really any different?

I decided when to repeat the phrase

This is the nub of it - is "I" deciding, or is the decision arising, just as thought arises?

Did you witness this part of the process clearly? If not, maybe you could repeat the exercise and see what is really going on at this point.

In direct experience the willed action decided when to repeat the phrase

I might be taking you a bit literally here, but.... was the 'willed action' really there first, and did it then make the decision? Or is this really another way of saying that the decision and the action just arose, without separation between 'decider' and 'decision'?

I bring the 'me' into existence to explain how this happens. But the 'me' must be a thought.

This is good, though it seems that so far, this is only partly observation, and also partly deduction ("must be a thought") .... Keep looking until you are sure - what is the experience you are labelling 'me' here?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

I have repeated the exercise several more times. When I experienced the decision and thought arising together I became aware of fear, tingling and burning sensations travelling along my legs. So I repeated the exercise and it happened again - fear travelling up my legs. I don't seem to be able to write any more. I think it is all slipping through my fingers so I will stop now as I feel rather stumped.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hello again Diane,

The questions you were investigating last time are what we need to be looking right now. If you find

tingling and burning sensations travelling along my legs

it might take a bit of persistence before you can find clear answers without becoming distracted by these sensations.

Note that, in addition to describing the sensations, you are also introducing the label 'fear'. Can you continue to attend to any sensations arising without introducing the label 'fear'? If a thought arises "this is fear!" or "I am scared!", that is a thought arising - notice it as such, and continue to attend to the direct experience.

Can you investigate the same questions again, without allowing the label 'fear' to distract you from what is going on in direct experience? Tell me what you find!

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

I noticed yesterday that when I do things I just do them so these are willed actions. It is only when I think about it that thoughts arise and I think that the thought is a 'self' directing. I do this as a way to explain to myself how an action occurs.

Doing the exercise again "sitting here now" the thought just arose and I repeated it several times "sitting here now". So the thought arose "sitting here now" which I repeated. So my direct experience was bodily sensations and a thought that repeated the phrase "sitting here now" There was no 'me' doing this the thoughts arise on their own and when I experience them I mistake them for a 'me'.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

OK, good stuff!

I think that the thought is a 'self' directing [...] I do this as a way to explain to myself how an action occurs. [...] when I experience them I mistake them for a 'me'.

So there are two different experiences happening at different times:

• * direct experience of thought and action arising on their own
  * "mistaking thoughts for a 'me'"

Is the transition observable?

Is the transition reversible?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

two different experiences happening at different times:
* direct experience of thought and action arising on their own
* "mistaking thoughts for a 'me'"

I was getting ready to do the exercise again. Because I new I had to wait for the phrase to come to mind, I spun myself round on my chair and what I realised was that there was no way that a thought proceeded this, I just did it. There was no 'self' directing this and it happened so quickly that thought hadn't had time to get in the way.

For the transition to be reversible I need to catch the thoughts in time and stop taking them for a fact, in a process that happens so fast. I noticed this morning how I look for explanations when difficult emotions arise rather than just letting the difficult emotions be there. I do it to try to make myself feel better or explain uncomfortable feelings. But these thoughts turn to Diane stories and then the 'self' seems to be the controller of the feelings. It seems to happen a lot first thing in the morning so tomorrow I am going to see if I can catch it.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

OK, I look forward to hearing more from you!

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

I reminded myself before I went to bed that I was to watch out for the stories that arise when I first wake up. When I woke up having had unpleasant dreams this morning, I tried to lie still and bring attention to what physical sensations where present. But my mind is like a never ending thought machine which goes on and on churning out all sorts of thoughts in quick succession. I wondered if it was possible to go backwards to see what suffering gave rise to the feelings of anxiety. But I didn't get very far. I notice throughout the day how these thoughts go on and on and build into stories. They all seem to go on with a life of their own. When anxiety increases the thoughts take over and I find it so hard to concentrate on the simplest of tasks. This has quite an impact on my life. When the thoughts overwhelm me I don't notice the stories but it is here that the 'self' feels strongest. But it is only a pattern of habit.

I am going to look out for the stories again tomorrow when I wake up.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

It won't always be easy to investigate while in the midst of life, at least not at first.

What we can achieve though, in quiet time set aside, is to look into the self-view that arises habitually.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think we have got to the point where you are convinced that no self can be found in direct experience that is driving though or decision making nor even willed actions. In direct experience, you have found that these all just arise without separation between a "doer" and the action.

You have also looked into the stories of "me, Diane" that arise, and found the character "Diane" to be a creation of thought, a fictional character in the story.

Yet when distracted from direct experience, a habitual self-view still arises, which you say you experience as if a "me" is being created.

So these are the two poles of experience that need to be brought together - what you have discovered in direct experience, and the idea of "me" that arises and which can still seem so convincing. Explore the sense of "me" in the light of what you have learned.

Specifically, put a bit of quiet time aside and ask:

What is going on in direct experience right now? Check out each of the senses, and notice thoughts as thoughts. Scan through bodily sensations, this helps grounding.

Is any self to be found in direct experience right now?

Is there a belief in "me" right now? If not, great... Relax and see if it arises.

I will assume that the belief has arisen again.... Did you notice it arise? If not, don't worry... It is something to look out for.

Now examine the belief... Where is it? What is it made up of? Does it go away again temporarily when you look strictly at direct experience?

Play with these two poles - direct experience and "me" belief.

Let me know how you get on

Best wishes

Perry