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Re: Hello

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:28 pm
by Hannah B-T
I need protecting from pain.
Let's try and narrow down a bit this 'I' that needs protecting from pain.
Is it thoughts? Does it make sense that thoughts need protecting from pain?
Is it the body? Is the body this 'I'?
Is it something else?
In terms of emotions, it seems relevant that I am feeling this emotion, but that table isn't. I am feeling this emotion, but that dog isn't.
Do you absolutely, 100% know that? Do you really know what the experience of a table, or a dog, or another apparent person is? Or do you just imagine you do?
There are some things which I assume are 'shared', like a table which I imagine the dog or another person in the room might be able to see;
'I imagine they...'
Think you've just answered my previous question there.

(This is NOT to negate the apparent existence of other sentient organisms btw, it's simply to as always, be crystal clear what is being known directly from experience vs what is being extrapolated and imagined)
I often will think of that as "I am in emotional pain" rather than physical pain, but maybe this emotional pain is just a certain kind of sensation in the body that takes a different label which implies more than is really there.
Look further into this. What really makes an emotion different to say, hearburn, or a stubbed toe?
Is there a self seperate to the emotion 'I am happy/sad/angry etc'- this is the convention of language, which is fine. But is there REALLY an I somewhere feeling that.
Go back to basic sensation. Hand on table, bum on chair, feet on floor. Can a separate self be found 'having' those sensations. We say 'I'm feeling the table', but is that really accurate?
How are the emotional sensations different?

Here's a story for you which might be helpful. During my inquiry I realised often there was a sensation in the solar plexus area, heavy, unpleasant, unexamined. Every day, for who knows how long, probably childhood. It was taken to be 'me'.Then one day I was doing yoga and the tension obviously released with a loud burp. I was initally dumbfounded! It was gone! Then I started getting hysterical with laughter.

I was a burp.
All that stress.
Over a burp.

<3

Re: Hello

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:42 pm
by Space6006
Let's try and narrow down a bit this 'I' that needs protecting from pain.
Is it thoughts? Does it make sense that thoughts need protecting from pain?
Is it the body? Is the body this 'I'?
Is it something else?
"I need protecting form pain" ... it's just another way of saying, this pain here needs to stop. I already know I can't find the 'I'; I can't find it in the body or thoughts because the 'I' feeling things or having experiences would have to be 'on this side' (so to speak) of hearing the thoughts/seeing the body, and I can't find anything 'on this side'. I used this terminology with Xain earlier - I don't know if you remember it? Of course I can't find the genuine 'I' in thoughts, because the 'I' would be the thing considering the thoughts. Same with the body. When I look at my body or think about my body, I want to find the 'I' which is considering the images of the body or the thoughts of the body.

The 'I' that needs protecting from pain isn't findable, nor is the 'I' that is up here looking out at a world and separate from that world. In fact, everything that I can find is something which when directly considered, I have to conclude that it is 'not me', rather than 'me'. That wall is not me. This hand is not me. This feeling in my chest is not me. This interior monologue is not me. All this is obvious. So why do I say I feel like I am looking out at a world that is different from what I am? I still feel like this sentence is true despite EVERYTHING that is found being put in the category 'not me'. If everything goes in the second category, what's the point in having the first category? I don't know.
Look further into this. What really makes an emotion different to say, hearburn, or a stubbed toe?
Is there a self seperate to the emotion 'I am happy/sad/angry etc'- this is the convention of language, which is fine. But is there REALLY an I somewhere feeling that.
Go back to basic sensation. Hand on table, bum on chair, feet on floor. Can a separate self be found 'having' those sensations. We say 'I'm feeling the table', but is that really accurate?
How are the emotional sensations different?
What really makes an emotion different to say, hearburn, or a stubbed toe?

This is too hard to answer. But for the rest:

Is there a self seperate to the emotion 'I am happy/sad/angry etc'- this is the convention of language, which is fine. But is there REALLY an I somewhere feeling that.
Go back to basic sensation. Hand on table, bum on chair, feet on floor. Can a separate self be found 'having' those sensations. We say 'I'm feeling the table', but is that really accurate?


No separate self can be found. Everything is 'not me'. "I'm feeling the table" is only accurate if there's an assumption that feelings need a feeler. I suppose you can adjust this and say that all that really exists without assumptions is the feelings, so a 'feeler' is just an assumption. But that just seems like a semantic distinciton to me. The feelings all stay the same, and in fact the adjustment seems to have no consequence for / effect on the feelings. It's just a new way of talking about stuff. Before, you said:

What if the self really only existed as a thought? An interpretation, a shorthand to 'process sensory data' as you put it? How amazing would that illusion be to finally see clearly operating?! How beautiful!

But changing the semantics doesn't seem like an illusion breaking with beautiful results; it just seems like clearer semantics. The upshot of clearer semantics is that you wouldn't expect anything about the subject to change just because you changed the semantics; so, when I say that I feel as if I am looking out at a world that is different from what I am, I should not expect this to change as a result of the semantic shift - nor should I expect any feelings of 2ft thick glass between me and the outside world to change. Basically, what I'm calling 'the feeling of looking out at a world that is different from what I am' is the same as 'the feeling of feelings existing with no trace of a feeler', because these two things ARE the same, just one is a more accurate description than the other.

Is realising no-self tantamount to realising that there is a more accurate (and less assumption-laden) way of talking about what we are feeling?

Re: Hello

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:59 pm
by Hannah B-T
In fact, everything that I can find is something which when directly considered, I have to conclude that it is 'not me', rather than 'me'.
Why does this have to be concluded?
Surely something can only be 'not me' in opposition to a 'me'. That's how language works.
This isn't about replacing one conclusion with another conclusion (insert 'belief' for conclusions)
In fact it's worth considering very carefully where the conclusion 'everything is not me' will lead to. Here is a hint, that's not a fun place to land.
That wall is not me. This hand is not me.
Let's reframe this a bit. Raise your hand and touch the wall.
What is the difference in experience between 'hand' and 'wall'.
Get very specific here.
This is too hard to answer. But for the rest:
So that's it, you are not even going to try?
What is an emotion made of?
What is that experience?
Take a look. Here they are, those pesky emotions, happening all the time and apparently making your life miserable.
Aren't you curious to get a handle on whats going on and what misperceptions/ misinterpretations are going on?
Don't you hunger for freedom from the limitations of your beliefs and current understanding?

If not, why are you here?
But that just seems like a semantic distinciton to me. The feelings all stay the same, and in fact the adjustment seems to have no consequence for / effect on the feelings. It's just a new way of talking about stuff.
If it seems like semantics then that tells me you are just playing mind games. Going back trying to think your way through this.

It just won't work.
That's why it's not clicking.

I'm not trying to play mindgames with you. I'm not teaching you a new language of 'no self'. If you leave here like that Xain an I have done you a disservice.

But I can only point out in language what is being unexamined, assumed, conjecture, beliefs.
Your job is to utterly honestly be ready to look at that with fresh eyes and be open to the fact you may not be experiencing what thoughts are saying is the case.

That's it.

Take a look at this little girl. Does watching this video spark any reactions/feelings?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxmmvHsDeuI

<3

Re: Hello

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:37 am
by Space6006
Why does this have to be concluded?
Surely something can only be 'not me' in opposition to a 'me'. That's how language works.
This isn't about replacing one conclusion with another conclusion (insert 'belief' for conclusions)
In fact it's worth considering very carefully where the conclusion 'everything is not me' will lead to. Here is a hint, that's not a fun place to land.
I mean: I can conclude that everything I find is 'not me' in the same way I can conclude everything I find is 'not Santa'; one doesn't have to presuppose that Santa actually exists in order to say everything is 'not Santa'. Same with the self. In this case, I am starting with the belief 'there is me and there is stuff which is not me', and I am finding that everything I look at is 'not me'.

What's the difference between 'no self' and 'everything is not me'? As far as I can tell these would be the same thing. Ie: 'no Santa' and 'everything is not Santa' are the same thing, also.
Let's reframe this a bit. Raise your hand and touch the wall.
What is the difference in experience between 'hand' and 'wall'.
Get very specific here.
Well ... I would say I can feel the hand and the wall. I feel the hand in a kind of tingling where the hand is, and I can also feel the cold air around my hand - so I would say there was a sensation of coldness - and I feel the wall as a kind of pressure or resistance. Furthermore, I would say that the feeling of tingling is somehow adjacent to the feeling of pressure/resistance, and also the feeling of coldness of the air. As a matter of fact, the tingling is sandwiched between the pressure on one side and the coldness on the other. I can also feel the coldness between my outspread fingers which helps me feel the shape of my hand (the pattern of coldness reveals the shape of the hand).

The only sense in which I experience the wall is in that pressure/resistance. I think I experience the hand not only in the tingling, but also in the feeling of pressure/resistance. I mean ... I know my hand is there because of the pressure/resistance as much as I know that the wall is there because of the pressure/resistance. (I wouldn't be able to feel the wall unless my hand was there, so the feeling of the wall implies the hand, and this is one of the ways in which I experience the hand.)

There is also the uncanny sense that, the feeling of the point of contact - the pressure/resistance - is neither wall nor hand. If I try really hard to stop filtering the feelings through ideas about wall and hand, (and images of wall and hand) and just feel the feeling of hand on wall in its most immediate and pure sense, it's just a sort of vague feeling - almost a kind of non-feeling, if that makes sense. The sensation almost feels like nothing when I take away the filters and interpretations. Like I said before: a reflection in rippling water.
So that's it, you are not even going to try?
What is an emotion made of?
What is that experience?
Take a look. Here they are, those pesky emotions, happening all the time and apparently making your life miserable.
Aren't you curious to get a handle on whats going on and what misperceptions/ misinterpretations are going on?
Don't you hunger for freedom from the limitations of your beliefs and current understanding?

If not, why are you here?
I guess I chickened out, there. An answer to that question was not forthcoming, but an answer to the other question popped out at me. The question of emotions is just very difficult. Regarding emotions vs a stubbed toe, for example. The stubbed toe is physical pain, and the emotion is something other than that. There is, however, some physical component to emotions. In fact, I've found that when I'm experiencing (basically any) emotion, there is always a feeling in the chest that goes along with it. One interesting thing about this chest feeling is that, when the emotion is bad, I characterise it as a feeling of heaviness, and when the emotion is good, I characterise it as lightness, or lifting. But, when I made the effort to really compare these two sensations, it was not clear to me how they were actually different. When I tried mentally to put them side by side it really wasn't that obvious that they were different feelings in the chest, but this needs more consideration and it's obviously very hard to take your mind to those two different spaces in quick succession (though it is possible with positive/negative thinking).

Another thing is that with negative emotions there is also a feeling in the throat of tightness. I have not noticed this with positive emotions.

I've also found that with many negative emotions, the physical components are the same. The tightness in the throat, and the feeling in the chest. This seems weird because you'd expect the sensations to be somehow different, since they are different emotions and you'd think the feelings would have to different in order for you to tell the emotions apart! But apparently not ...

Oh, but I think an exception is anger. When I get angry there's this additional sensation which I might describe as 'bristling' - it's almost a feeling of tingling or hairs standing on edge around my head neck and upper body in general. I would almost say it's a hot and spiky feeling, but it's not painful, just a general sense of rising tingling or hotness around the upper body and heart. But it's very subtle and not really an equivalent to physical pain, or a true physical feeling of hairs standing up or heat. Either way, I would say that the physical component of anger is quite unique.

In light of these observations, I would say that my understanding of emotions is definitely changing. I've almost made a hobby out of trying to distinguish the physical aspects of emotions when they arise. The moment of realising that you've been swept up by an emotion and considering how it actually feels, physically, is a little like 'breaking the 4th wall', or something. It breaks the spell a little - but not totally. But I would say it's changed my relationship to emotions a little. For example, with anger, if the bristling sensation goes unconsidered, my immediate behaviours will be angry behaviours (I'll get clumsy or aggressive or whatever) but if I become mindful of the bristling, it becomes clear that there's no MANDATE to behave that way just because of that bristling, and I'm able to basically stanch the anger a little right away, because the anger just seems like an automatic behaviour change module (as if I were some kind of computer) which isn't really rational in and of itself; I mean, there's no rational connection or necessary connection between the bristling and the following angry behaviours, so you just don't have to do those behaviours!

BUT, I will say that the most peculiar thing about stanching the anger in this way is that I often feel like I'm cheating myself out of being angry - like I SHOULD be angry, or it's JUST (right, fair, moral) for me to be angry. Like, I almost feel like I DESERVE to be angry and that by choosing not to be angry I'm somehow not allowing myself some indulgence which I've earned. Of course, this all is silly, because anger is just not fun. I just regard this weird feeling to be some kind of vestige of learned behaviours. It's not too hard to see how silly it is and remind myself that I really DON'T want to be angry.

Now, I think I've written probably too much here in an altogether too stream-of-consciousness style. I hope it's not too hard to read. (I still don't know whether my predilection for semicolons and em-dashes makes my writing clearer or cloudier, but my natural writing style doesn't seem to work without them.)

This work on emotions is obviously an ongoing process.
If it seems like semantics then that tells me you are just playing mind games. Going back trying to think your way through this.

It just won't work.
That's why it's not clicking.

I'm not trying to play mindgames with you. I'm not teaching you a new language of 'no self'. If you leave here like that Xain an I have done you a disservice.

But I can only point out in language what is being unexamined, assumed, conjecture, beliefs.
Your job is to utterly honestly be ready to look at that with fresh eyes and be open to the fact you may not be experiencing what thoughts are saying is the case.

That's it.
[...] be open to the fact you may not be experiencing what thoughts are saying is the case.

So, there's a discrepancy between what is actually being experienced, and what thoughts are saying is true? Is this not precisely what a semantic change would be about? In light of the above discrepancy, wouldn't the goal be to bring thoughts into alignment with what is actually being experienced - ie, get the contents of thoughts (language) to change to more accurately reflect what is being experienced. Is that not basically what a new language of 'no self' would be?

On the one hand, nothing about experience is going to change, because things have always been in a state of no-self in the first place; and on the other hand, what we're looking for here is not just a semantic change. So, if the change will not be in the character of experience, and it's not going to be in language, where is it going to be? And if there's going to be no change, what's the difference between someone who has not seen and someone who has?

This is probably stuff that you would say is just getting in the way, and if it's going to be counterproductive then I will try my best to just stop it. But I'm generally very predisposed to approach things in this sort of analytic way, and that propensity was only heightened by my undergrad studies. Wanting to square up all the concepts and semantics - I'm drawn to that like a magnet. But I also get the sense that there's a divide between our approaches here which might be exacerbating our apparent differences. My only desire with this semantics stuff is to get us both on the same page, so we can understand each other just right. I'm just getting the impression that we're not quite there yet. My impulse, in that case, is to hash it out and really get to the bottom of that - but sometimes I know it's easier just to brush it under the rug and trust that the SIMILARITIES between our understandings here will be enough to get the desired result out of the conversation. There is a point of diminishing returns on semantic work and if you think we've hit it we can stop. I just want you to know that I'm not doing it to try to be argumentative. I'm happy to return to more 'direct looking' work.
Take a look at this little girl. Does watching this video spark any reactions/feelings?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxmmvHsDeuI

<3
Hmm ... nothing very strong. You see, I'm a very 'in my head' person. I started watching the video with an idea that I was supposed to react a certain way (sentimentally, to put it simply) and was pretty sure I wouldn't feel that way, so when I watched the video all I was thinking about was how I wasn't reacting to it sentimentally and thus was instead just sort of irritated by it. Honestly, I was, I guess, a little jealous of the girl and her family. And this was all coloured by the fact that I was still a little worried that I'd accidentally annoyed you by not answering the question about emotions ... so I was quite distracted.

It does, however, remind me of earlier when you said for me to go out in nature and think as if I was a child experiencing everything for the first time. Obviously, this is related to that...

Thanks for your patience, Hannah.

Re: Hello

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:58 pm
by Hannah B-T
What's the difference between 'no self' and 'everything is not me'?
Language operated in dualistic terms. Self/no self.
me/not me
light/dark
up/down

So tell me what you understand by the term 'non duality'.
There is also the uncanny sense that, the feeling of the point of contact - the pressure/resistance - is neither wall nor hand. If I try really hard to stop filtering the feelings through ideas about wall and hand, (and images of wall and hand) and just feel the feeling of hand on wall in its most immediate and pure sense, it's just a sort of vague feeling - almost a kind of non-feeling, if that makes sense. The sensation almost feels like nothing when I take away the filters and interpretations.
Yes, good. This is the work, seeing how much of what is going on is interpretation.

Hold out your hand in space, not touching anything.
With eyes shut, how much of what is 'hand' is thoughts and images.
Do the raw sensations themselves say anything about 'hand?'
But, when I made the effort to really compare these two sensations, it was not clear to me how they were actually different. When I tried mentally to put them side by side it really wasn't that obvious that they were different
yep
I've also found that with many negative emotions, the physical components are the same. The tightness in the throat, and the feeling in the chest. This seems weird because you'd expect the sensations to be somehow different, since they are different emotions and you'd think the feelings would have to different in order for you to tell the emotions apart! But apparently not ...
Nicely noted.
So seeing that 2 different emotions can be made of exactly the same raw sensations, what else is added on to make one X and one Y, one pleasant and on unpleasant, one heavy and one light.

Doesn't this immediately start to undermine the validity of emotions? I mean is it X, or is it Y? Or can it be either. What determines that?
The moment of realising that you've been swept up by an emotion and considering how it actually feels, physically, is a little like 'breaking the 4th wall', or something. It breaks the spell a little - but not totally.
Yes.
it becomes clear that there's no MANDATE to behave that way
yep, nice
like I SHOULD be angry, or it's JUST (right, fair, moral) for me to be angry. Like, I almost feel like I DESERVE to be angry and that by choosing not to be angry I'm somehow not allowing myself some indulgence which I've earned. Of course, this all is silly, because anger is just not fun. I just regard this weird feeling to be some kind of vestige of learned behaviours. It's not too hard to see how silly it is and remind myself that I really DON'T want to be angry.
Yes, this is how the 'selfing' operates as were. Pretty much exactly how it did when it started up as a toddler. I WANT! I DESERVE! ME ME ME!
:)
So, there's a discrepancy between what is actually being experienced, and what thoughts are saying is true?
You tell me.
Are thoughts still saying a lot of things about I/me?
Is an I/me beign experienced right now?

It's basically as simple as just a tiny shift into what is trusted more, the evidence presented right now from perception, or the old learnt interpretations and analysis of that.
Any then that happenning again...and again...and again...until it becomes the default position.
There's nothing wrong with intelligence, complex thinking.
It's just totally the wrong tool for this job.
I was a major thinker, science background, loved deep thought and analysis for fun. Knew it was also making my life miserable.
But being clever and 'knowing the answers' was and still is a core aspect of what I believed Hannah was.
So someone telling me to 'just look', was at best hilarious, and at worst patronising and scary.
But in the end I just had to get over myself. literally. :)
what's the difference between someone who has not seen and someone who has?
There isn't someone who has seen or someone who hasn't. That's the joke.
Why don't you set aside what insight might be like, and concentrate on examining the current experience to actually find out?
But I'm generally very predisposed to approach things in this sort of analytic way, and that propensity was only heightened by my undergrad studies. Wanting to square up all the concepts and semantics - I'm drawn to that like a magnet. But I also get the sense that there's a divide between our approaches here which might be exacerbating our apparent differences
Yes, it's a different way of approaching things.
If you are spending a lot of time doing academic study this may hinder the inquiry, but that also may be an excuse.
I was doing post grad exams and working full time as a doctor whilst looking into all of this.
I actually found it quite a relief, a bit of a 'detox' to get away from all the analytics for a bit.
There is a point of diminishing returns on semantic work and if you think we've hit it we can stop. I just want you to know that I'm not doing it to try to be argumentative. I'm happy to return to more 'direct looking' work.
there is a difference between 'defining terms' so we are on the same page and arguing semantics which can basically end up as a form of mental masturbation.
Let's try and stick to a basic level of 'defining terms'?
Honestly, I was, I guess, a little jealous of the girl and her family.
That's honest, thanks?
Jealous of what about her?

Re: Hello

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:33 pm
by Space6006
Language operated in dualistic terms. Self/no self.
me/not me
light/dark
up/down

So tell me what you understand by the term 'non duality'.
I don't really understand what you're saying in the first part, but as for the question, I understand nonduality to mean that there is no distinction between me and everything else, but that what i'm calling everything else is actually all there is. Usually I think that there's a me and a world, but I take nonduality to mean that actually there is just the world and no me distinct from it. The me im talking about is only a story which exists amongst the everything else.
Yes, good. This is the work, seeing how much of what is going on is interpretation.

Hold out your hand in space, not touching anything.
With eyes shut, how much of what is 'hand' is thoughts and images.
Do the raw sensations themselves say anything about 'hand?'
Much of it is certainly thoughts and images, though it's hard to tell how much of it. In fact, the thoughts and images are so prevalent, it's hard to tell what would be left without them. I have a tactile sense of the hand for sure, and this is separate from the thoughts and images, but right now I'm having a hard time really feeling the character of that tactile sensation without thoughts and images distracting me, so it's character is always influenced by the thoughts and images.
Nicely noted.
So seeing that 2 different emotions can be made of exactly the same raw sensations, what else is added on to make one X and one Y, one pleasant and on unpleasant, one heavy and one light.

Doesn't this immediately start to undermine the validity of emotions? I mean is it X, or is it Y? Or can it be either. What determines that?
It definitely starts to undermine them, yes. But there's a definite clinging to emotions. I feel like I've glimpsed a how silly the whole business of emotions is, that it's a game I'm playing with myself with rules I'm holding myself accountable to. Seeing how emotions are basically stories brings my mind to a state of peacefulness for all but a tenth of a second before my addiction to emotions convinces me that I need and want to get caught up in positive emotions again. Even though being happy in the traditional sense that I've been craving all this time is basically a story and not quite as real as I'd thought, there's a definite pull back into craving it even after briefly seeing how arbitrary it is.

Re: Hello

Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:52 pm
by Space6006
You tell me.
Are thoughts still saying a lot of things about I/me?
Is an I/me beign experienced right now?
Thoughts are still saying a lot about a me, yes.

The second question is harder. Thoughts say that a me is being experienced right now, yes. But the idea that the experience could be different from what the thoughts are saying is challenging to me. I mean, I can look all I want, but if thoughts say I'm finding x I have no recourse to challenge it, since thoughts are the only way i know what I know. Right? Is it possible that everything I find when looking is being retrofitted in order to gratify the interpretation that thoughts are giving? I mean, thoughts say thay when i look out at the world i am experiencing the world, and I am experiencing that world being separate from me. But is it possible that what im experiencing really isn't that at all?

Is it true that, right now, I'm experiencing a world being separate from me? Part of me feels it's plausible to say no to this, because all I'm experiencing is the world, and in order to experience being separate from that world there would have to be some other component which seems to be absent. But then I start thinking, well maybe there's just something I'm missing that, if found, would explain this whole separateness thing. And then I think, yes, surely that must be it, because of course I'm separate from all THAT.
That's honest, thanks?
Jealous of what about her?
She is obviously happy in a sort of profoundly innocent way which I feel totally incapable of. I feel sort of marred or damaged by comparison. I'm just a tangle of anxieties and neuroticisms that I can't give up, and feel obliged to maintain to fit into society.

Re: Hello

Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:48 pm
by Hannah B-T
I don't really understand what you're saying in the first part
Language is structured, at least english sentances, to require a subject (i, you, it), and action (verb) relating that subject to an object (noun)
Is that structure an absolute truth expressing how things are, or a convention?
but I take nonduality to mean that actually there is just the world and no me distinct from it.
Nope.
It's trying to express there is both not a subject (I) OR a world in the way we think about it.
This is why landing on 'there is not me but there is just a world', would be just as erroneous.
This is not 'nothing exists. there is just a black void'. I mean look around, that's obviously nonsense.
It's just pointing out that self and objects are two sides of the same coin.
A coin which doesn't really exist in the first place.
Surely even a physicist will tell you the same?
Much of it is certainly thoughts and images, though it's hard to tell how much of it. In fact, the thoughts and images are so prevalent, it's hard to tell what would be left without them.
Yes, this work is not easy.
But this is the work.
And it's entirely possible.
but right now I'm having a hard time really feeling the character of that tactile sensation without thoughts and images distracting me, so it's character is always influenced by the thoughts and images.
So then you go deeper
is the tactile sensation without the thoughts and images a particualr shape? does it have a mass? borders?
Be clear exactly how much is going on is pure sensation, and hw much is interpretation.
basically stories brings my mind to a state of peacefulness for all but a tenth of a second before my addiction to emotions convinces me that I need and want to get caught up in positive emotions again.
Well a tenth of a second is a start :)
Find the I that is feeling/getting caught up in/is addicted to the emotions.
Describe that I to me.

ent from what the thoughts are saying is challenging to me. I mean, I can look all I want, but if thoughts say I'm finding x I have no recourse to challenge it, since thoughts are the only way i know what I know.
This is exactly the core of the problem here.
The challenge is to COMPARE THE THOUGHT CONTENT TO THE RAW PERCEPTUAL EXPERIENCE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

What is the problem with doing this? Why isn't this clicking still?
I feel sort of marred or damaged by comparison. I'm just a tangle of anxieties and neuroticisms that I can't give up, and feel obliged to maintain to fit into society.
Ok that's a really interesting statement 'i am just a tangle of anxieties (thoughts) and neuroticisms (thoughts).
If that is what you are, then what is the separate second I here that is unable to give them up?
Does that even make any logical sense.

What if it was just the first one.
What if all you are is some thoughts/ideas.
Prove me wrong.

Re: Hello

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:40 pm
by Space6006
Language is structured, at least english sentances, to require a subject (i, you, it), and action (verb) relating that subject to an object (noun)
Is that structure an absolute truth expressing how things are, or a convention?
It of course is at least a convention. If you ask if that expresses how things really are, it doesn't really seem to make sense for some reason.
Nope.
It's trying to express there is both not a subject (I) OR a world in the way we think about it.
This is why landing on 'there is not me but there is just a world', would be just as erroneous.
This is not 'nothing exists. there is just a black void'. I mean look around, that's obviously nonsense.
It's just pointing out that self and objects are two sides of the same coin.
A coin which doesn't really exist in the first place.
Surely even a physicist will tell you the same?
Okay. So my current state seems to be that there is ME and there is THE WORLD. But actually neither ME or THE WORLD as I think of them now is really whats going on. BOTH of these particular conceptions are just symptoms of the same problem?
So then you go deeper
is the tactile sensation without the thoughts and images a particualr shape? does it have a mass? borders?
Be clear exactly how much is going on is pure sensation, and hw much is interpretation.
Looking only at what I can find, it doesn't have a shape unless I think about it in terms of a shape ... or maybe this is just a breakdown of language... Either way, unless I'm thinking about the shape of my hand, the shape of my hand isn't a part of what I can find about my hand, and thinking about the shape of my hand always seems to take the form of images. Maybe it's possible to think about (or sense) the shape of my hand without images, but I can't do it - at least not today. The touch sensation itself is almost anchorless - almost meaningless on its own. Touch almost drops out of existence when the images of my hand fade. It's like I can't really conceptualise or parse out 'feeling' without comparing it to 'seeing'.

There's a weird sense of not being able to tell where the feeling ends and the images begin. Does this mean I'm getting deeper or just failing to look clearly?
Well a tenth of a second is a start :)
Find the I that is feeling/getting caught up in/is addicted to the emotions.
Describe that I to me.
I suppose all there really is is the behaviour. The behaviour (including thoughts arising) patterns of seeking and averting arise again.
This is exactly the core of the problem here.
The challenge is to COMPARE THE THOUGHT CONTENT TO THE RAW PERCEPTUAL EXPERIENCE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

What is the problem with doing this? Why isn't this clicking still?
I don't really know how to evaluate the perceptual experience happening right now. It's obvious to me that, in the course of my life, I've basically never really been paying attention to whats actually happening. There's been this notion that I've been in control and basically on top of everything that's been going on the whole time, but for some reason now I no longer feel like that's the case...
Ok that's a really interesting statement 'i am just a tangle of anxieties (thoughts) and neuroticisms (thoughts).
If that is what you are, then what is the separate second I here that is unable to give them up?
Does that even make any logical sense.

What if it was just the first one.
What if all you are is some thoughts/ideas.
Prove me wrong.
What if all you are is some thoughts/ideas.

That sounds consistent with experience. What I mean is, there's no 'i' necessary for this condition to exist. So the 'I' that appears in language could very well just be referring to thoughts ideas or a character. Yes, I think that' consistent with experience.

I suppose "I am over here looking out at a world that is other than what I am" is really just an interpretation which is only true if you invent an 'I' and impose it upon experience. There's nothing inherently more 'i'-ish about any part of experience. It's just that some things experienced are customarily considered personal and others not. Emotions and thoughts are over here, bodily sensations are over here, etc - but there's nothing inherently 'i'-ish about any of them. They're just customarily labeled that way.

Re: Hello

Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:43 pm
by Hannah B-T
I am unwell today, will try and respond in more detail tomorrow thanks

Re: Hello

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:38 am
by Space6006
No problem. Thanks again for your patience.

Re: Hello

Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:15 am
by Hannah B-T
If you ask if that expresses how things really are, it doesn't really seem to make sense for some reason.
Explore that further, look around and ask of your current experience- in what way doesn't it make sense to say there are really objects ot there referring to a subject 'me' here?
The answer will not be conceptual, at least initally. Just be open and relaxed and see what happens (which may be nothing, and that's fine too)
Okay. So my current state seems to be that there is ME and there is THE WORLD. But actually neither ME or THE WORLD as I think of them now is really whats going on. BOTH of these particular conceptions are just symptoms of the same problem?
It's not really a problem. if a car is speeding towards your body, it's pretty useful to feel that 'you' need to get out of the way of that car. That's preconceptual.
But yes, this is the hypothesis. The role of inquiry is then to investaigate this hypothesis and try to disprove it.

That is done by going all out to find both this independant, fixed subject, me, and then these independat fixed objects that this me relates to, as has been assumed all these years. To prove beyond all shadow of a doubt that is all not just assumption and convention. The reason you have to go all out to prove these things ARE existing which can sem a bit backwards, is that if you just accept this new hypothesis on face value, it just becomes another nice idea, and has no lasting impact on the way life is experienced or conducted.

Does that make sense?
unless I'm thinking about the shape of my hand, the shape of my hand isn't a part of what I can find about my hand, and thinking about the shape of my hand always seems to take the form of images. Maybe it's possible to think about (or sense) the shape of my hand without images
The touch sensation itself is almost anchorless - almost meaningless on its own. Touch almost drops out of existence when the images of my hand fade. It's like I can't really conceptualise or parse out 'feeling' without comparing it to 'seeing'.
Fantastic looking there. This is a very cool thing to see. yes this is also my experience- hand = raw sensation which in itself i cannot identify a shape size or location plus imagery 'creating' 'hand'.
You can play around with this with various parts of the body and then eventually the whole body.
If you can get to just being with the raw sensations of the whole body, even briefly, with eyes closed, ask:

'is there an inside vs an outside to this experience?'

If this stuff gets unpleasantly weird, let me know!
The behaviour (including thoughts arising) patterns of seeking and averting arise again.
Yes, it can be useful to indetify learnt patterns of thoughts and reactions. Just like it doesn't require a self to pull the hand off a hot stove, does it require a self to have a particualr reaction to more coplex stimuli, like words, actions or emotions?
I've basically never really been paying attention to whats actually happening. There's been this notion that I've been in control and basically on top of everything that's been going on the whole time, but for some reason now I no longer feel like that's the case...
I love your honesty here.
Now thereis less of a feeling 'i'm in control', how is that? Is that a problem?
So the 'I' that appears in language could very well just be referring to thoughts ideas or a character. Yes, I think that' consistent with experience.
I'm going to pull you up every time you say 'I think that...'
To be utterly frank I don't care what you think.
I care deeply that you SEE what your experience is.
Because that is where the freedom lies.

So take a look right now, imagine you. Then imagine Batman.
In what exat way is one of those more real than the other?
Thanks again for your patience.
No problem. This stuff isn't easy, but thankfully it is utterly simple.
Once it 'clicks', things will become a lot less hard work, honestly!

Re: Hello

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:46 pm
by Space6006
Explore that further, look around and ask of your current experience- in what way doesn't it make sense to say there are really objects ot there referring to a subject 'me' here?
The answer will not be conceptual, at least initally. Just be open and relaxed and see what happens (which may be nothing, and that's fine too)
Maybe it's because 'object' and 'subject' are abstract concepts, and I can't find abstract concepts with the senses. I can only find particulars, not the general categories object and subject themselves. I cant find anything in the world which is actually object itself. I can only find chair or cup or whatever particular thing, and these things are only subjects or objects when thought about in a certain way, not inherently object or subject. They're just labels and I can't find what those labels refer to by looking at the cup or chair. I cant find the abstract.
It's not really a problem. if a car is speeding towards your body, it's pretty useful to feel that 'you' need to get out of the way of that car. That's preconceptual.
But yes, this is the hypothesis. The role of inquiry is then to investaigate this hypothesis and try to disprove it.

That is done by going all out to find both this independant, fixed subject, me, and then these independat fixed objects that this me relates to, as has been assumed all these years. To prove beyond all shadow of a doubt that is all not just assumption and convention. The reason you have to go all out to prove these things ARE existing which can sem a bit backwards, is that if you just accept this new hypothesis on face value, it just becomes another nice idea, and has no lasting impact on the way life is experienced or conducted.

Does that make sense?
Yes, it makes sense.
Yes, it can be useful to indetify learnt patterns of thoughts and reactions. Just like it doesn't require a self to pull the hand off a hot stove, does it require a self to have a particualr reaction to more coplex stimuli, like words, actions or emotions?
Even for more complex stimuli, I catch myself in retrospect having gone through a whole series of actions as of automatically. In other words, not self consciously.
I love your honesty here.
Now thereis less of a feeling 'i'm in control', how is that? Is that a problem?
Not a problem. It's more accurate, which is better in my opinion. It allows me to actually understand my predicament here, in the world in general, and deal with the actual situation of reality rather than the delusion.
I'm going to pull you up every time you say 'I think that...'
To be utterly frank I don't care what you think.
I care deeply that you SEE what your experience is.
Because that is where the freedom lies.

So take a look right now, imagine you. Then imagine Batman.
In what exat way is one of those more real than the other?
One thing I noticed, when you say imagine myself, I start thinking about my body, but that's not actually what I think I am. What i think i am is not my body but the entity which is experiencing the body. I don't know why my reflexive reaction to being asked to imagine myself would be to consider the body when that's not even what I fundamentally think I am. Of course, my body is real and batman's body isn't real. But that's irrelevant because it's not about the body, not really.

In regards to the entity which is experiencing, the only way it's more real than batman is that there is actually experience I can confirm existing here. But I am not identical to my experience. So the only way that can make me more real than batman is if an entity is required to experience the experience. But that entity cannot be found directly and is only inferred to exist based in the assumed premise that an experiencer is required if experience exists.

But writing all this, I realise it reduces the self down to some thing seemingly irrelevant. What do I care about some entity which is just a linguistic notion? Something that I'm committed to by virtue of a presumed logical premise? It seems like that entity really doesnt matter, and isnt personal at all in the way a self is assumed to be. In my search for a self I've gone past everything that matters, everything that's actually findable, and ended up with some entity which only exists as an assumption. Hardly seems right...
Fantastic looking there. This is a very cool thing to see. yes this is also my experience- hand = raw sensation which in itself i cannot identify a shape size or location plus imagery 'creating' 'hand'.
You can play around with this with various parts of the body and then eventually the whole body.
If you can get to just being with the raw sensations of the whole body, even briefly, with eyes closed, ask:

'is there an inside vs an outside to this experience?'

If this stuff gets unpleasantly weird, let me know!
I'm going to experiment with this over the course of the day and get back to you.

Re: Hello

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:20 pm
by Hannah B-T
I cant find anything in the world which is actually object itself. I can only find chair or cup or whatever particular thing, and these things are only subjects or objects when thought about in a certain way, not inherently object or subject. They're just labels and I can't find what those labels refer to by looking at the cup or chair. I cant find the abstract.
Nice!
This is getting a bit beyond what we focus on here at LU, but yes, this is the direction, seeing what is labelling and what is experience, and how much assumption is in the mix there.
I catch myself in retrospect having gone through a whole series of actions as of automatically. In other words, not self consciously.
Yes! I mean i've heard people literally say they drive from a to b without any recollection of how 'they' did that. And yet in the next breath they'll defend how of course there is a self driving the car!
It allows me to actually understand my predicament here, in the world in general, and deal with the actual situation of reality rather than the delusion.
Cool
Of course, my body is real and batman's body isn't real. But that's irrelevant because it's not about the body, not really.
Nice, I can see you are really getting into these questions now. It's an interesting movement when the logical intelligence starts undermining itself :)
So the only way that can make me more real than batman is if an entity is required to experience the experience. But that entity cannot be found directly and is only inferred to exist based in the assumed premise that an experiencer is required if experience exists
Yup
What do I care about some entity which is just a linguistic notion? Something that I'm committed to by virtue of a presumed logical premise? It seems like that entity really doesnt matter, and isnt personal at all in the way a self is assumed to be. In my search for a self I've gone past everything that matters, everything that's actually findable, and ended up with some entity which only exists as an assumption. Hardly seems right...
BINGO.
Forget right or wrong.
What would life look like without all that investment into an entity that exists only as an assumption?
Just sit with this a while and let the implications sink in.
really let them sink in.

xx

Re: Hello

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:50 pm
by Space6006
Hi, Hannah. Sorry it's been a couple of days. I'm still here but the last few days have been a little hectic. I'm working on your post now.