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[hashim_b]

Hi Kevin,

Is there a controller of these thoughts?
If not, how do they arise?

I can't find a controller of the thoughts. I know we worked on this a little bit before, but trying to control thoughts can be quite futile, because it can cause more problems.
The thoughts come from external inputs, experiences, conditioning from society and surroundings.

What causes you to get up and walk?

Or wake and go to work?

These things seem to happen on their own. Waking up and going to work happens, because if I don't do it, I can't pay the bills and have a place to live. But I have to admit, there is still a feeling of doership that exists in me. I know we did the raising of the arm exercise at length, but I'm not sure I can say that I totally understand this part about doership.

I was thinking today about "if everything is happening automatically, is changing one's life also something that happens automatically?" I also starting thinking about "who is the I that wants to make this change?" Is the I that wants to make this change, something made from social inputs saying "your life has to be this way?" I am starting to think, if I just let things be, things will change on their own. But there is also a part of me saying(probably from social conditioning) that I have to work harder to make changes happen more faster, because if I don't, I'm just lazy.

[KevinD]

Awesome responses!
Great, let's examine this doer.
What is it that apparently has this control?
Find it, as it is right now, and describe it.

Is this also the supposed entity that wants work to happen harder and faster.
If not, what is that making those demands?

Best,
Kevin

[hashim_b]

Hi Kevin,

What is it that apparently has this control?
Find it, as it is right now, and describe it.

I would have to say that there is actually no one in control. The one who thinks he is in control, is made up of ever-changing thoughts.

Is this also the supposed entity that wants work to happen harder and faster.
If not, what is that making those demands?

The same entity that is made up of ever-changing thoughts is the one who wants changes to happen faster. But he doesn't really exist. He is filled with thoughts that say that changes have to happen faster. These demands come from societal conditioning, and teachings from self-development, which have shaped this person's thoughts.
How can these thoughts be dropped? Or is there a need to? Is it good enough to just observe these thoughts? Or should other types of thoughts be adopted instead?

It is painful to be plagued by these thoughts, and not meeting the expectations that we have adopted, or that are put on us. Just observing them doesn't seem to help.

[KevinD]

Hashim,

Thanks again for the awesome honesty.
It's one of the many things that make you so much fun to work with.

Very interesting responses, and you have piqued my interest greatly.

You say that there is this entity made up of thoughts which wants things to happen faster.
Then you say the entity doesn't exist.
Wow, I was really looking forward to meeting it through your description.

If this thing doesn't exist, how can it be an entity at all?
And if it's not, what the heck is it?

(I think we're into some of the stuff we missed)

btw, you asked about the painful thoughts, and how it doesn't help to observe them.
(This is not part of the pointing, but is of great interest to me)
A crucial part of mindfulness practice is to observe with absolute equanimity--a complete lack of judgement about them. If they are seemingly painful, keep watching with the detached curiosity of a scientist watching a microbe.
What are their characteristics as they manifest physically (big, small, hot, cold, pulsating, static, still, moving, etc).

Keep digging,
Kevin

[hashim_b]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for the pointing and advice about mindfulness.

If this thing doesn't exist, how can it be an entity at all?
And if it's not, what the heck is it?

I feel that the individual identity doesn't exist in an unchanging timeless form, which is why I wrote that it doesn't exist. But there are thoughts and beliefs that come and go, and depending on what kind of thought or belief is being held at that moment, that is what "I" tend to attach myself to. So I know that in the bigger picture that "I" doesn't exist, but from a more microscopic view, there are certain identities that are taken on depending on what is being experienced at that time.

I'm kind of getting confused as I write this, but this is probably why I still can't say "I don't exist in any shape or form" yet with conviction. As certain thoughts arise, I can't honestly say that I'm at a place where I'm totally detached from that thought.

I'll probably need some help navigating through this part....

[KevinD]

Hi Hashim,

I'm kind of getting confused as I write this, but this is probably why I still can't say "I don't exist in any shape or form" yet with conviction. As certain thoughts arise, I can't honestly say that I'm at a place where I'm totally detached from that thought.

Great, I've been dying to meet this guy since we met.
Despite all efforts, you've been unable to produce him.
We're getting close to actually trapping the little bugger.
Over the next day or so, carry a pen and paper with you.
When you're feeling the presence of this "I" thought as being real, grab a seat, and write like the Dickens.
How big is he?
Where is he exactly?
What does he look like?
How does he feel about himself?
What does he care about?
What is his mood?
Does he think he's real too?
How does he feel about being dismissed as just a thought most of the time?
How does he make himself reappear as real?
Why does he care about being real?
What does he want from you?
What are his plans?
Is he afraid of dying?


You may need to be fast cuz he may dissolve into just a thought that's not believed any more.
It may take more than one visit to get answers to these questions.
If it doesn't work the first time, keep trying.
Go get this guy, I can't wait to meet him.

Now, if it's discovered quickly this guy is just a thought, how quickly was it?
Was the belief in that thought ever there?
This is a big project, and I need you to hammer away at this rigorously.
Tell me about that believed thought only as it is there.
Direct experience--no stories.
If you need an extra day for this, take it.
We're catching Squonk here (Genisis song reference).

Good luck,

Kevin

[hashim_b]

Hi Kevin,

Wow this is a pretty big undertaking! I will work on this and get back to you tomorrow.

Hashim

[KevinD]

Understood.

[hashim_b]

Hi Kevin,

I posted my reply did it reach you?

[KevinD]

I don't see it, Hashim.

[hashim_b]

Hi Kevin,

I took some time to write my answer, I don't know why it didn't reach you but I'll try to remember what I wrote:

How big is he?
Where is he exactly?
What does he look like?
How does he feel about himself?
What does he care about?
What is his mood?
Does he think he's real too?
How does he feel about being dismissed as just a thought most of the time?
How does he make himself reappear as real?
Why does he care about being real?
What does he want from you?
What are his plans?
Is he afraid of dying?

I found that these answers change depending on how I'm feeling or what mood I'm in. But this is generally how I feel.
"He" is the size of my body. He is where the body is. He looks like what he sees in the mirror.
He cares about health and living a full life, but I have found that these values always change also. His mood changes constantly depending on what he experiences.
He doesn't understand why he can just be a thought.
(I don't understand the questions "How does he make himself reappear as real?")
He only understands himself as being real, so he cannot see beyond that. He cares about being real because if he didn't, he would disappear.
He wants a fulfilling life from me. He has many plans, but they are all to lead a fulfilling life. He says he is not afraid of dying, but there is a part of him that probably is.

Now, if it's discovered quickly this guy is just a thought, how quickly was it?
Was the belief in that thought ever there?

Maybe all of these things are thoughts, but maybe I exist as a bundle of quickly changing thoughts? I would have to say that whatever thoughts I have for that moment even if they are temporary, I am caught up in them, so there is some kind of belief in them.
I can understand that I don't exist in terms of me being a bundle of thoughts, which are changing, but I still can't say I don't exist in any shape or form. I can feel my body, which is a shape and form, and I have emotions and thoughts that feel real to me at that given moment, so I can't understand how I could not exist at all.

I'm probably a bad student since it's taking me this long to understand, but this is honestly where I'm at. I hope I can overcome this. The concept of not existing still feels like a concept to me, rather than a deep knowing...

[KevinD]

Excellent, Hashim,

Thank you.
Let's handle this piecemeal.

I found that these answers change depending on how I'm feeling or what mood I'm in. But this is generally how I feel.

What does the above statement tell you about the nature of self?

And regarding your last statement, it's completely untrue.
You are a great student (guidee).
If everyone I dealt with from now on were like you, I'd be happy.
Keep digging,
Kevin

[hashim_b]

HI Kevin,

Thanks for the uplifting reply!

I found that these answers change depending on how I'm feeling or what mood I'm in. But this is generally how I feel.
What does the above statement tell you about the nature of self?

What we think our self-identity is, is actually something that is always fluctuating and changing. It's not something that is set in stone.
But I don't see how that means that "I" don't exist? I can see that there is an "I" that is constantly changing, but that doesn't mean "I" don't exist. At least that's how I feel about it now. Thanks.

[KevinD]

What we think ...

What does the beginning of that answer tell you?

[hashim_b]

Hi Kevin,

I probably wrote "we" by accident since I was writing in a hurry (I can hear you saying that there are no accidents :). But if I were to read into what I wrote, the "we" probably signifies a combination of the individualized "I" that is made up of thoughts and beliefs, and then the Self(with a capital S) that observes all of those phenomena.