Looking for someone to lead me home

[Jakobo]

I will just ask plainly: have you seen beyond a doubt that there never was an "I" vs "outside circumstances"?

No.

But it is frustrating because when being asked all these different questions I come to an answer that could make it seem that I have seen this clearly. And then I don’t want to go around waiting for a big pop to happen, but kinda feel ok with this being a slow process where all the expectations of what this seeing could mean are not met instantly.

So it’s from this perspective I asked the questions in my last post. There’s moments/days when things feel clearer.
So when do you know it is clearly seen? I feel sure though that I would NOT say that I have seen BEYOND A DOUBT that there never was an ‘I’.

[Jakobo]

Yesterday I went for a long run where I intended to be as conscious as possible during the run. To keep my attention in the direct experience as much as possible. But I tend to think a lot while running and get lost in stories. And there were many moments during my run yesterday where I kept repeating painful stories AND were being conscious of them. It was like even though I was conscious of repeating a painful story I kept choosing that rather than turning my attention to the direct experience.

I’ve been aware of this pattern before but it became really obvious yesterday. And it’s really stupid! I’m so utterly aware that the story of ‘me’ and the sub-stories that’s created from it is causing a lot of suffering but still there’s this resistance to let go of it. I gonna sit with this and really ask myself if I’m ready to let go of all these stories. The answer should be so utterly obvious as it’s seen that it causes suffering but for some reason apparently it isn’t.

Thank you again for your time and effort! It’s so very appreciated!

[Jakobo]

This morning I sat down to look at the story thing I wrote about in my last post. Almost immediately I started to cry for no apparent reason. There were tears of sadness but also of gratitude and appreciation. Gratitude towards you, all the other guides and this whole site for simply taking the time to do all this. And dare I say even towards this whole journey ;)

As I sat with all of this there were a growing sense of acceptance. Sure stories can cause great suffering, but no matter what shows up in the moment, whether it being aware of the senses or being caught up in a story that’s just what’s happening. And since that simply is what’s happening in the present moment it has already been accepted. Nothing is never not accepted.

Now a few hours later this felt sense of what I just wrote is somewhat gone but with all this came a sense of ease that’s still lingering in the background.

Well, that’s all for now. Have a very nice weekend!

[otterrivers]

Hi sorry for my delayed response! It's ok we just start fresh from here. You say you have not seen clearly that there really is no self as separate from life in general. So let's look for where this self could be. It's that simple. If upon seeing this, you then pull out your list of expectations and compare them to experience and find some unmet, that does not mean the seeing did not happen. The gate is the doorway. Seeing clearly there never was a "Me" that could do anything, receive anything, think or feel anything.... That's the gate. The beginning of living in truth. It promises no result. Life continues and much conditioning may be present. It can be looked into as life goes on and you see clearly again and again that there was no self to defend in ANY of it. But if you expect that all to happen from our conversation here, I'd say that's unrealistic. I can only point you to the initial seeing that you don't exist except as a thought. An assumption. A feeling. Then the journey goes on!

[otterrivers]

So to start, let me know how my last post resonates with you. Then tell me what you feel is missing. What would you like to achieve?

[Jakobo]

Yes expectations are stupid and I wish they could be dropped completely even if there’s no I to drop them… But there’s no way round it – something seem to have clicked for people that have ’gated’. I can say intellectually to you that’s there’s no ‘I’ running the show but that doesn’t mean too much. Just peaking around on this forum it’s obvious there’s a lot of people having an intellectual understanding of no ‘I’, but it stops there. Just like for me I guess. I don’t see people turned blue from saying something coming from the intellect ;)

So does this waiting for a ‘click’ create unnecessary expectations? I guess. Stupid! But how do you know you’ve gone from an intellectual understanding to a more grounded one? Where do you draw the line? Now, having said all this I do feel that things are changing. That they are moving in the right direction. And there are moments when things do feel clearer. Does it mean that I at those times see this clearly and then immediately pull out my list of expectations? Don’t know.

What is missing? A more grounded feeling/understanding of no self. I’ve been looking into this looking thing :) The seer, the seeing, the seen. That’s how it appears to me. I need to sit with it all for some time before even getting a feeling of the just being the experience of seeing happening. But is all that just an unrealistic expectation that it easier should be seen that there is just seeing happening? The general feeling of there being a ‘me’ around is strong. Is it an unrealistic expectation that the sense of ‘me’ should loosen up a bit?

[otterrivers]

Yes expectations are just thoughts. It's only more thoughts as well that say the expectations have any importance, or that they should be satisfied or that they should stop happening.

There is no experiencer to get it. You'll never go "from an intellectual understanding to a more grounded one"
It's only a habitual thought pattern that puts it in the framework of "me and outside world". This habit doesn't stop happening automatically just because you see it isn't true. It's ok that this pattern happens. There is no you to change it. Just see it as it is.

You say you can see, after sitting for some time, that there is no separation. That really is the gate. All the rest can be taken care of I. Our after care groups. Many many people have passed the gate and still deal with much of this. And once I. The groups, you'll have many more people to discuss it with rather than just me.

[otterrivers]

To expect that truly seeing the truth of life as it really is will be the end of a spiritual quest which meets the expectations you have... This has nothing to do with it. I know the results you seek are common. But it really can't be about the results. What is really true? The habitual thoughts of "self and other"? Or the unity you have seen with some looking? The fact that this seeing doesn't seem to remain all the time does not mean it isn't true, or that you haven't really seen it. Rather than looking around and commenting about how things still seem, you could just keep looking and seeing again and again what is true. Rather than looking for some spiritual event to happen, check right now: is there really a being inside the head or chest that is receiving data from an outer world? Is there a being inside the body that sets thoughts or actions into motion? Or is this "me" really just another thought and feeling which cannot originate or receive anything?!

[Jakobo]

Ok, it might be time to stop all the questioning and just accept thing for what they are, and move on to the other groups for continuous investigation. Buuuut only one last thing to ask/look at :) Or two…

I might have been a bit sloppy when talking about the looking thing. The seer, seeing, seen. You talk about unity. I wouldn’t say I have seen that. Maybe glimpsed it at a point. It’s more like I know that the experience of seeing is the only thing I can be sure about. The seer can’t be found and I can’t really trust the seen as the mind is labelling and commenting and making sense of it. Only the experience of seeing is what can be trusted. But I wouldn’t say that mean I see the unity of thing because of that. But maybe that’s not important?

And the other thing that came to mind reading your post (now, all this is thoughts and mind stuff and the relevance of it might therefore be discussed….) is that Ilona and basically the whole LU community explains the ´phase’ after seeing that there’s no separate self as a period of ‘falling’. To be honest I think that if I dropped this enquiry right now I could easily go on and being an ignorant person oblivious to the truth for the rest of my life. Or at least believe myself to be that… :)
Or, probably not as I’m pretty sure that no matter what’s done the inquiry will continue, but I think you get my point.

[Jakobo]

Rather than looking around and commenting about how things still seem, you could just keep looking and seeing again and again what is true.

I'm gonna take that to heart. As always in life it feels better some days, worse other days. Easier/tougher. So instead of looking at what I feel I'm not getting why not just look again and see what's here in the present moment and not getting carried away in stories. Seems lika a more sane and easier approach to everything!

[otterrivers]

Sorry I've been too busy to reply. I have tomorrow off though so I should have plenty of time to respond then. :)

[otterrivers]

"" Only the experience of seeing is what can be trusted. But I wouldn’t say that mean I see the unity of thing because of that. But maybe that’s not important? ""

No it is important. This is great. Now I can see clearly where to work.

So let's return to this: seeing/seen/seer ...

Do this exercise: (I believe we have before but it is still a good one)
Hold any small object nearby. Notice every sense impression. Then see if you can find any distinction between the sensations, the object, or the sensing if the sensations? Are these actual separations in reality? Or rather learned concepts taken to be more true than actual experience?

What sees this? ...see how even this question is flawed? Is a seer necessary? Does experience necessitate an experience-ER?

Now sit still or lay down (when you have time. When waking up from sleep is the best time in my opinion)
Watch every thought for a bit. Notice the ones that start with "I". Like "I think I should..." Or "I don't want to..." What does this "I" point to? Is there anything there? Or is it one thought pointing to another thought?

Notice a movement that happens. Did "I" do that? Can thoughts do things? Say you turn your head and open your eyes... Did this require a central controlling entity to initiate it? Is this "I" at the center with thoughts all around it, or is it just one of the thoughts?

Sometimes a thought is followed by action. Does this mean the thought caused the action? If you think very hard "move left leg. MOVE!!!" Does this cause the left leg to move? And even if he leg does move that time, is it a direct result of thought? That is another form of "I" thinking: claiming responsibility for what happened. Imagine an elephant walking last you. You see the trunk first And the tail later. Does this mean the trunk caused the tail?

Try this after waking up from sleep. Give yourself 15 minutes to lay there and investigate. Is "I" other than a thought? Can a thought originate action, or perceive, or think?

And when the desire to pop up and brush your teeth arises, is it a central entity that decrees this? Or just a spontaneous arising followed by other habitual thoughts claiming ownership?

[otterrivers]

And I forgot to mention, while laying there after waking, notice every sensation. Sight, sound, body feeling... Are any of these distinct from the knowing of them? Is there "sensation" vs "awareness of..."?

The feeling of body, the sounds, color, shape, movement, thinking, noticing, are these separate phenomena? Some closer and others further? Some inner and others outer? Don't say yes or no. Find the actual line of division. If it exists you should be able to find it.

[Jakobo]

Hi!

I’m gonna need more time to look at all your questions and answer them thoroughly. I see that there are many things that aren’t really clear to me here. But this one is probably the one I struggle with most.

And I forgot to mention, while laying there after waking, notice every sensation. Sight, sound, body feeling... Are any of these distinct from the knowing of them? Is there "sensation" vs "awareness of..."?

I’ve noticed that I have no control over awareness. It goes wherever it wants to. Sure there can be a thought saying “put your awareness on your legs”, but there is no control whether to think that thought or not. And thoughts are inherently powerless. But there are always sensations going on in the legs but it isn’t until awareness goes there that those sensations are registered. This creates a feeling of separation. Awareness OF the sensations.

The feeling of body, the sounds, color, shape, movement, thinking, noticing, are these separate phenomena? Some closer and others further? Some inner and others outer? Don't say yes or no. Find the actual line of division. If it exists you should be able to find it.

There’s no surprise here but awareness seems to be coming from the brain. But looking at it closely I can’t say it is this way. It doesn’t stand up under scrutiny but all of this feels blurry. It isn’t clear. It feels like an unquestioned assumption that everything is registered in the brain. Need to look more closely at this. The line of division? Can’t be found but it surely feels like there is awareness of things…

[otterrivers]

Take more time. Look into this. Don't get too hung up on the words. Look at awareness and what it is aware of. Sure awareness and the object have different qualities. But are these actually two separate things? When observing any object, even a sensation or a thought, is there any actual separation between the object and the observing of it? Or is this a reasoning that happens before and after? I am not telling you to believe that the brain isn't involved. Just leave aside anything that is not direct experience. Outside of logical deduction, using only the senses right now, can you find a distinction between the sensed and the sense-er? Don't worry about the implications of this right now. Just look at life directly as it happens. :). Take your time. But it doesn't take much time or consideration. Just look and report without filtering it through what 'must be' true. Answer only with what is directly noticed. Also, relax. You can just enjoy this! Don't worry about a goal band there's no hurry anyway. Whatever is true, is true. Just relax and look. Be curious. Enjoy not knowing. :)