who would like to guide me?

[tsaheylu]

hearing happens.

saying: "I hear", is referring to hearing being percieved through the body that perception is percieving from. this is self explanatory, nevertheless a cultured habit. perception only happens through or from a vantage point where perception is percieved. not through a differnt vantage point than from where perception is percieved.

[odemira]

Hi Liv,

hearing happens.

YES - this is how it is.

perception only happens through or from a vantage point where perception is percieved.

If 'hearing happens', is there really a perceiver? Or is that a thought labelling experience?

Check this out, and check it with all the other senses too. Take your time, Liv.

with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

good morning annie,

thank you for your post.

If 'hearing happens', is there really a perceiver? Or is that a thought labelling experience?

Check this out, and check it with all the other senses too. Take your time, Liv.

great, will do. thank you!

heartfelt regards,
liv

[odemira]

Hi liv,

just to say I am travelling long distance today so it maybe a couple of days before i can post again.

love
annie

[tsaheylu]

ok annie,
thanks for letting me know!
pleasant travels.
so much gratitude here for you,
liv

[odemira]

hi liv,
am connected to internet again now. how's it going?
with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

Hello annie,
glad your safe back on the ground :)
(just assuming you flew)

so every here and again the question would pop into my mind: „is there a perceiver“?
Noticing hearing happening, seeing happening, and all other senses. And then:“or is that (a perciever) a thoughts labelling experience?“...

and the clearance was, that it would take thinking-up, make-believing a perciever, a refering to a thought, in order for there to be the belief or impression of perception happening on behalf of a perciever - or that it was a perciever, who enabled perception.

It could be argued, when thought about, that it takes some kind of form in order for there to be perception, that perception can only happen through form, just like sound can only happen through form. For there to be form and perception it takes no 'i'. it needs not the impression of being seperate for there to be perception.

A metaphor: the same air blowing through different instruments, made essentially of the same stuff (e.g. atoms..) appearing in different forms, creating different sounds. Percieving taking place in the vantage point of one instrument. Consciousness through that instrument refers to it's form as 'i'. it is clear that every vanatage point of perception is unique. And that when described, it can only ever describe from it's vanatage point and never describe how it is in another vantage point, eventhough there is no seperation and all infinite forms are made of the same stuff and appear in the same awareness; And as the formless is form and form is formless at the same time.

The 'i' is an idea suggesting seperation, made up of an illusive weaving of thought with a content of memory-story-identification with body (belief of thought: „ I am the body“). It does not take a thought for perception to happen, it does not take thinking for perception to happen. Perception is happening all the time. Even when there seems to be nothing hapening or unconsciousness or stillness, that is percieved.

It doesn't mean that there is always memory stored about what is percieved. So there can be the impression when going unconscious, that there was no perception happening during that time...percieving always is now, before thought can describe percieving.

Percieving happens without there being names and concepts to refer to. And then the mind labels everything with names and refers it to concepts, including the concept of there being an 'i' who is experiencing. It's a thought labeling what was experienced: „ 'i' experienced warm“, without mind conceptualizing, putting into framework and then describing, narrating through that filter, there is just the experience.

With Love,
liv

[odemira]

hi liv,

love your post! Very clear. How does it feel to see this?

with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

hello annie,
i am with you in the thread the whole time....
just no writing happening..answer is in the making...
coming soon,
love,
liv

[odemira]

:)
all happens at the perfect time....
love
annie

[tsaheylu]

hello annie,
i just want to post now eventhough i still don't know what to write, because the answer is:
i don't see this. i would have to investigate again. when i read it it's only heady intellectual, it does not speak of my direct experience. there are intense feelings in my body attached to a story, creating anxiety. i continuosly remind myself that the anxiety only comes from thought, to look and see that i am thinking and believing in a story right now. which briefly brings me back to blanc and direct experience of the five senses and gives a brief relief, before the thinking is picked up again. but right now, everything is always ok. cause right now with focus only on direct experience of the senses...that is all there is, there is no story.

[tsaheylu]

lots of love to you annie

[odemira]

Thanks liv, lots of love to you too.

In direct experience, you are right, there are intense feelings in the body, there are thoughts that arise and create a story, there is the calmness of the direct experience of the five senses. This is it. And it's all happening moment by moment, but not to 'you'. 'You, me, I, Liv' = labels, content of thoughts. Not real.

In direct experience, can you find anything other than the 5 senses, thoughts, and sensations, including aliveness?

[tsaheylu]

Hello annie,

thank you for those wonderfully simple words, light as a feather and lifting the weight of the world off these shoulders, figuratively speaking, by pointing that the weight is only in thought. When thought that is being believed contains content of a premise of seperate self.

In direct experience, can you find anything other than the 5 senses: thoughts and sensations, including aliveness?

No.

i'm having a hard time experiencing aliveness though. It all feels like a dull and hazy dream. Boring and dark. No joy. No wonder. Same ole same ole blah. Of course there is comparing now to memory when there was a labelling of an experience as aliveness. „That was when i felt alive“. Moments when the senses where hightened through a very pleasurable experience. e.g. Like when swimming with dolphins. And there is a comparison with memory of realizing that it was a dream that i was in (when body was asleep) and the experiencing as aware of dreaming, which was feeling so alive and which was a very pleasurably exciting experience.

So what is happening when i pose the question: „in direct experience, can i find anything other than thinking, hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling, aliveness? Every sense is a no (I cannot find anything else than that); and aliveness is not a clear no because what that word means in this mind isn't the experience right now.

Aha, yes, aliveness to me contains a quality, a very positive quality. just the senses themselves do not contain a quality, they just describe different vanatage points of perception. All the five senses can be described as perception, without seperation. Aliveness to my mind is a quality that is percieved.

With warmest heartfelt regards,
liv

[odemira]

hello liv

simple words, light as a feather and lifting the weight of the world off these shoulders, figuratively speaking, by pointing that the weight is only in thought

And it's an imaginary weight, too.

All the five senses can be described as perception, without seperation.

YES.

aliveness is not a clear no because what that word means in this mind isn't the experience right now. No joy. No wonder.

So you have an expectation that the experience should be of joy and wonder? Expectations are just thoughts about how things should be. And expectations keep us away from experiencing the joy and wonder that is there in the 'same ole, same ole.' Let the expectations go, liv.

Can the experience right now be any different than it actually is?

Aliveness = the sensation of being alive, that's it, simple.

When you're feeling bored, can you see that it's a thought of 'I don't like how things are?'.
Can you see that even without that thought, there is still a sensation of being alive?
Can you see that without the thought of 'I' not liking how things are, boredom isn't possible?
And when the thought and the feeling of boredom do arise, they just arise, to no-one.
Can you see that the sensation of aliveness is always present, regardless of what else is happening in experience?

Happy looking!
with love
annie