realizing selflessness

[whoknows]

Did maybe 15 minutes of noticing butt-meets-chair sensations and trying to see non-separation between "subject" ("me") and "object" (sensations), with a spirit of calmness and curiosity. Still seeing separation. My mind is clearly still hanging on to the idea of a separate "self" or feeler of sensations.

(And I noticed that my sense of self, at least this morning, seemed to be mostly made up of sensations in my face, which even my mind recognizes is kind of a silly construction of "self.")

[Anastacia42]

Sounds like fun. It's great that you're practicing.

Loving,

[whoknows]

Used my regular afternoon meditation time (25 min.) to observe butt-on-sofa sensations and try to see through the illusion that there’s a senser that’s distinct from the sensations. No luck on that.

(But I did notice that in my head, where I tend to locate my “self,” all that can be found are bodily sensations, most prominently in my face, and also thoughts, which I imagine as arising in and around my head. So it seems that the thoughts and head sensations are pretending to be the “self” that experiences things, even though they’re just other experiences.)

[Anastacia42]

So it seems that the thoughts and head sensations are pretending to be the “self” that experiences things, even though they’re just other experiences.)

Correct!

We're looking for a shift in perception. It may be subtle.

How does it FEEL to see this?

Loving

[whoknows]

How does it FEEL to see this?

Not like anything, I'm sorry to say.

We're looking for a shift in perception. It may be subtle.

I have noticed that, since I got back into meditation in a regular way about five months ago (usually sitting two 20- to 25-minute periods a day) in addition to watching lots of videos on awakening, doing some relevant reading, and joining a group related to all of this, I've gradually been feeling less like being alive is more torture each day, and it feels easier to get things done that I need to get done. But that doesn't seem like a shift in perception.

Also during this period, I've found that I'm spending less time caught up in thoughts and can more easily shift right back to clear-ish awareness when I realize I've been caught up in thoughts. But I don't usually stay in that clear awareness for more than a few seconds at a time, rarely more ten seconds. But I don't think that's the sort of shift in perception you're talking about.

[Anastacia42]

Yes. Those are the kinds of things are talking about.

Have I shared these yet?

Watch these, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

This is just a beginning.


And Ilona recently wrote this:

From an email from Ilona

Nothing dramatic happened.

There were no fireworks.
No permanent bliss states.
No sudden personality changes.

And yet, something shifted.


Here are a few things people said afterwards:

“I’m not fighting my experience anymore. There’s more space around everything.”

“I expected something big to happen. Instead, life feels simpler and I trust myself more.”

“There’s less urgency. The seeking has softened.”


This is the kind of shift this work supports.

Ilona Cuinate

Keep LOOKING.

[whoknows]

Yes. Those are the kinds of things are talking about.

Oh. OK. Well, I would welcome more of all of that.

But I admit that I’m also hoping for the dissolution of my belief in a “self” and a sense that I am perceiving myself and all of reality in a new way. I feel like I still have only the intellectual understanding of no-self that I came here with.

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

Yep, you shared these at the beginning, and it still seems like they’re not yet relevant to me.

Keep LOOKING.

I certainly will.

[Anastacia42]

We will both know when you have that shift in perception You will be telling me or I may notice something.

It may not be the best idea to keep telling me how much you cannot see. I know that.

Loving

[whoknows]

We will both know when you have that shift in perception You will be telling me or I may notice something.

It may not be the best idea to keep telling me how much you cannot see. I know that.

OK.

Last night, while doing ButtChair meditation, I noticed that I always (or usually?) overlay bodily sensations with a visual image of my body, at least in a vague sort of way, and so the self/senser/observer imagined in my head is always looking “down,” from a distance, at the butt-on-chair sensations.

I started playing around with letting go of that image, to help me let go of the apparent distinction between senser and sensation, but it seems like the best I might be able to do, at least at this point, is to hold that image more lightly and not take it to be indicating something real. So I plan to experiment with that some more.

[Anastacia42]

That's good.

The key words here is

imagined

It's not real. You're making it up.

Loving,

[whoknows]

It's not real. You're making it up.

Yep.

Eight minutes of ButtChair:
While trying to focus on butt-on-chair sensations, I tried to see sensations in my head as not signifying a separate self/senser any more than sensations in, say, my hands or feet do.
Then there are thoughts, which, via additional thoughts, seem to signify a separate self/senser located in or around my head. Didn't get far with exploring that. Will try later . . .

[Anastacia42]

Good.

You may have done this one but these are very good questions to use.

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

LOOK. What do they point to?

Loving,

[whoknows]

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Exploring some of these questions again:

Does the sense of self have a location?

It seems to be located mainly in my head, especially in my face, and most especially around my eyes.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

I’ve been noticing in the past couple of days that my sense of self seems to be “made” mainly of thoughts and facial sensations. (But clearly, those are things that are experienced, not an experiencer.)

But then there’s also the most basic sense of awareness or consciousness or presence. That feels like it’s the core of “me” and like it is in fact an experiencer (even if, as some teachers describe it, it is actually/also what constitutes all experience). I’m not sure how that fits in. I’m content to go with this, from an earlier message of yours:

There is what we call, "awareness," but only because we want to call it something. . . .

Awareness is not a "self."

Here’s something else I noticed just in the past few days: When I realize I’ve been caught up in thoughts (which feels like my attention is “inside” my head or captured by the “external” world), I can quickly access a relatively clear, quiet, aware, spaciousness by shifting my attention to my eyes and my sense of vision.

So: (1) I locate my constructed sense of self especially around my eyes, and (2) I can, in a sense, escape from the thought-cloud of “self” through my eyes. I’m not sure what to make of that. Maybe nothing. But I found it interesting.

LOOK. What do they point to?

I’m not quite sure what is being asked here. The unreality of an individual "self" distinct from what is experienced?

[Anastacia42]

Exactly.

I’ve been noticing in the past couple of days that my sense of self seems to be “made” mainly of thoughts and facial sensations.

Yes. That's what "self" is. The contraction Sensation of a lie plus thoughts, a label. Nothing more.

Yes, that awareness is not a "self."

Can you see that?

Can you say 100% that there is no separate "self?"

How does it FEEL ?

Loving,

[whoknows]

Yes. That's what "self" is. The contraction Sensation of a lie plus thoughts, a label. Nothing more.

Yes, that awareness is not a "self."

Can you see that?

I can see that two ingredients of the sense of self are sensations plus thoughts that don't reflect reality and which could therefore be considered "lies."

I do not directly experience the facial sensations as "the contraction Sensation of a lie." The sensations in my mouth and cheeks, for instance, don't feel like contractions at all, and although the sensations currently around my eyes, especially across my brow bone, do feel like tension or pressure, that seems related to seasonal allergies and/or staring at screens too much.

Can you say 100% that there is no separate "self?"

I can say that I have not been able to find a separate "self" through direct experience.

How does it FEEL ?

I just read that as if sung by Bob Dylan. :-) If you're asking how it feels not be able to find a separate "self," well, it's doesn't feel like anything in particular (e.g., like a rolling stone). I wish it felt liberating or something, but it just feels like observing a fact.