Struggling to see

[Stan]

Stacy, hello. I got a proper job for the first time in my life. Whuch is great, but there is even less room for remembering about inquiries.
Anyway. A question that I have ignore for too long.
You told be not to believe/listen to thoughts. But who is there to do that? Who gets pulled into thought trains? The answer must be no one, right? Then how the heck is this even a thing?
This is not a rhetorical question, pls just tell me the answer. I will check it for myself.


So

are you LOOKING and ignoring thoughts

?
As I have told you before, I can, but only a little bit. Then I am carried away by thoughts, unnoticedl-ly

[Anastacia42]

But who is there to do that? Who gets pulled into thought trains? The answer must be no one, right? Then how the heck is this even a thing?

It may be a bit mind blowing, but the answer is no one.

There is no need for a person or a "self"for this to happen!

From a Buddhist poem or text:

Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.

Congratulations on the job. I hope you like it.

Loving

[Anastacia42]

Angelo Dillulo guided video

https://youtu.be/fEv7UF8evQ4?si=0quQlOl6c4S5QvUU

[Anastacia42]

Hi Stan,

How is the job going?

Have you watched the video I've sent a week ago?

Loving,

[Stan]

Hello!
Thank you. It's challenging. It was going alright, but for the two last days I had kinda of a meltdown. Can't shake off anxiety. All of a sudden there is suffering, emotions, and mind tells me to drop this job and pursue another endeavor, but it certainly could be a bout of insanity, laziness, weakness, etc.

I've watched this video several times before... sadly, most of Angelo's meditations just don't get enough traction with me.
For the last week, I was trying to work on a resonating pointing of Experience/Experiencing vs Experiencer vs seeing Experiences as another experience. I have seen that, for me, there is simply always something watching... whatever the experience, there is duality in that someone or something is watching. In simple words, I stopped trying to remove that part, as an experiement, as recommended by some, and see it for what it is/move into awareness... no luck so far.


I would be ok with being sent over to another guide, if you think that would be good.

[Anastacia42]

Here is an anxiety exercise that focuses a person in the present, and in a part of the brain that cannot do anxiety. Basically, go through each sense and say (or think) "I see/ hear/ feel/ taste/ touch ______________." A minute or two of each and usually anxiety is gone.

I see the couch.
I see the keyboard.
I see the glass. Etc.

I hear the train.
I hear the keys clacking.
I hear my breath. Etc.

I feel the couch under my butt.
I feel my fingers on the keys.
I feel the cold air. Etc.

I taste a metallic taste in my mouth.
I taste the coffee.
I taste the food. Etc.

I smell the humidity in the air.
I smell my husband's shampoo.
I smell the soap. Etc.

As far as I can tell, the only time this doesn't work is when someone won't do it.


You can request amother guide if you want to try that. Up to you, but most likely it will help most if you do the pointers regularly & post here.

Are you attending the groups for support?

Doing ButtChair. ignoring the content of thoughts is really all you need.

But again, this is up to you.

Loving,

[Stan]

Are you attending the groups for support?

No. I am planning to visit Vince;s group, but it's hard with the schedule.

///

Yeah, I would be interested in working with someone else!
I hope you don't take this as offence...

[Anastacia42]

No offense at all. Another style might suit you better.

We'll see who is available or you can send a private message here to someone you'd like to work with, asking if they're available.

Loving,

[Stan]

Ok, thank you!
I don't know anyone, so I will leave that to you or to chance. I guess someone cerebral/argumentative would be best?

[Anastacia42]

That's funny. I doubt anyone who has seen is still cerebral/argumentative . I have posted your request. We'll see who replies.

Loving,

[Stan]

Yeah, thought as much...
I like Sam Gow. I would consider him to have a cerebral quality. So does Angelo, actually.
Thank you!

[poppyseed]

Hi Stan

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Now let's assess where you are at the moment...
If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times.The more you uncover, the better starting point we have, so please check which one of these "roles" still resonates with you. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. Of course, honesty will make this work

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. It's really important to keep a momentum going - a momentum of looking. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
This is not about making it rigidly so, exceptions (vacations, times where something else is called for, etc) are fine and in the end we will be guided by a flow beyond our decisions and imagination. However, the level of diligence lets me know if a person is really interested in doing this or not - if this is a priority right now in your life. So what I am checking in with here, is if this type of engagement feels right and is possible for you?
Love
Rali

[Stan]

Hello, Rali!
Thank you!
Straight to business, eh...

If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

If your question is equal to "what does the word I point to", then it points to the body, sensations, emotions, thoughts, but also I have discovered recently that it points to awareness, or maybe the witness. However, this leads to seeing that I am kinda everything. Senses and awareness are not separate...
Additionally, in ordinary functioning, I must be also the doer, thinker, decision maker, and other things. These do not survive inspection. Inspecting and seeing that no such entities are direactly noticeable is slightly exulting, mixed with "yeah, whatever, no shift will happen and I will surely forget about this in a moment".
...
When I gave it another try half an hour later, the familiar result happened - silence. Then thoughts came, and it muddled... maybe I am in the heart area. Or in that tension in the eyes. You know... all the stuff we are taught to associate... something! with.
...
I will stop for now.

I will gladly converse daily. I am already exploring pointers every day, whenever I can.

[poppyseed]

Hi Stan,
Thanks for your honest and raw response.
Let’s go straight into it.

If your question is equal to 'what does the word I point to', then it points to the body, sensations, emotions, thoughts, but also I have discovered recently that it points to awareness, or maybe the witness. However, this leads to seeing that I am kinda everything.

That last line is important: “I am kinda everything.”
Look again, carefully:
Is this the actual seeing—or is it still the play of the seeker?
When the “I” couldn’t be found in body, emotions, thoughts… did it run to something bigger to avoid being nothing, now disguised as “the all”?

Who says “I am everything”?
Who is watching that thought arise?
Where is border that shows where the thought ends and being aware of it begins, or the border where being aware becomes awareness/witness?

Can awareness itself be found?
Can it be located, seen, touched, sensed… or is it simply assumed?
If you try to find it, what do you run into?
Sensation? Blankness? More thoughts?
Now, watch closely — when awareness is named… is that not just another thought?
When the thought says, “this is awareness”… who said that?
What would happen if you didn’t label anything as “awareness” at all?
Try it. Stay completely silent. Let everything arise without naming it.
Now — without the label ‘awareness’ — what is left?

Inspecting and seeing that no such entities are directly noticeable is slightly exulting, mixed with ‘yeah, whatever, no shift will happen and I will surely forget about this in a moment’.

Good. There is a clear seeing of the self-thoughts , yet there is still half-believing their commentary.
That’s all that’s left. Just thought claiming to own the recognition.
Let’s go right into it:
Find the one who will forget.
Right now. Look. Not the thought about forgetting.
Find the one who forgets.

Silence… then thoughts came… maybe I am in the heart area. Or in that tension in the eyes…

No. That’s story again.
You’ve already seen it — a “body part” is just a label slapped on a cluster of sensations with no location.
That tension? A sensation.
That “heart area”? A sensation with a label “heart area”.
Then thought claims: “I am there.”
Why? To stay relevant. To survive.
But where’s the I in that sensation? Can an “I” be found in sensation itself? What exactly is that I made of in the “middle” of this transparent sensation? Look, don’t imagine.
Don’t describe the sensation — drop below the label. Just stay with it.
Is there an “I” in the heart?
In the tension?
Anywhere?
Look freshly. What do you find?

You’re doing the work. The seeing is here. Now we stop pretending there’s someone left to realise it.
Let’s keep going. Just stay honest. Direct. Immediate.
What’s here now?
Love
Rali

[Stan]

Is this the actual seeing—or is it still the play of the seeker?

While it gets appropriated by ego fast, it is an experience, which "I" "can" access whenever "I" "want". I have checked just now to be sure.
Sadly, this does not last at all. Thoughts rush in, me seemingly rushed in along with them from the get go. I guess this could/should be a practice in it's own.
I wish I would be just non-askingly sucked into this. What force could possibly resist? A fucking joke.

When the “I” couldn’t be found in body, emotions, thoughts… did it run to something bigger to avoid being nothing, now disguised as “the all”?

Certainly possible. But the question that led me to this was "What am I", a popular one! THen again... upon getting there, non-duality seems to rise somehow. It's hard to see... I get what you might want from me, but I am not so sure... Perhaps it does try to disguise itselft. Not sure that's much of a problem.

Who says “I am everything”?

Thought

Who is watching that thought arise?

No one/awareness/it just rises and just known/
Watching, but no watcher, I suppose.

Where is border that shows where the thought ends and being aware of it begins, or the border where being aware becomes awareness/witness?

These are good questions, Rali...
No border. Thought requires awareness.
...
another try gives the understanding that thought is like a wave, a manifestation of awareness. Thoughts come out of awareness and into it. Btw, I don't just regurgitate what I've heard, usually... it's experientially checked.
If there is a border, then only as a thought.
Border between being aware and awareness... interesting. No real border. You know, I blame language/linguistics for a lot of my troubles. I am not a native, but I'm not too bad, and not too stupid, but there have been too many things that are not clarified by teachers. Like "awareness" is both a process/verb and a "something"/object/noun. How is this ok? It's not ok, unless you mention this >:(
Same with Being... stupid Ekhart!
I hope it's ok to write this much. I don't get to write like that much.
But it seems like there are two modes (being lost in thought vs seeing thoughts clearly), or, maybe, forgetting and remembering of what's not thought.
I am also not very clear on attention vs awareness, and is there anyone focusing or modulating attention. I heard different opinions...

Can awareness itself be found?

Well... that's what some of them say, right? It's not something, but it's not nothing either.

Can it be located, seen, touched, sensed… or is it simply assumed?

I suppose you are right. Before getting bitten by Jed McKenna and sent on a search, if pointed out without words, I might not have had a name for it...
So I do have a tendency to label awareness as such. Objectify it. Separate. Make safer. More manageable... Discoverable.

If you try to find it, what do you run into?
Sensation? Blankness? More thoughts?

I run into senses. But also a quietness, maybe...

///
That's a lot of work... I ran out of time. I will continue tomorrow. Many thanks