Jen seeking guidance

[graceabounds]

Very good. Everything unfolds as it always did.
Awareness, sensations, actions, and emotions appearing, shifting, resolving, never owned, never needing a controller.

Is there anything you need to do for this to be true?

Is there anything left to get, keep, or fix?

[Jenness]

Hi Becca,

Very good. Everything unfolds as it always did.
Awareness, sensations, actions, and emotions appearing, shifting, resolving, never owned, never needing a controller.

I’ve been coming back to this in the past day to remember, and it’s helpful. Brings up sadness that shifts but feels like it’s got so many layers so just keeps going. Just a hooking onto “not good enoughness.” then as that unhooks a little, fear of what would happen if I dared go against everything that was taught to me about what makes me not good enough unless ___. Fear of pain of rejection and being hated, fear of utter aloneness or harm from others. Fear of death. I guess that would be the worst, or pain I can’t get away from because I can’t die on command. Or a life that feels wasted because it didn’t turn out well and I just failed. On some level, those all feel more acceptable than they used to. The more acceptable those are, the easier it feels to accept there’s no controller.

Is there anything you need to do for this to be true?

No it’s always true no matter what I believe

Is there anything left to get, keep, or fix?

A sliver of hope left in this one that I’m trying to sort though. Less avoidance of emotions seems to make things better over time than more avoidance, so that’s a direction the mind has clung onto. But either way, it’s still also this same thing with the mind labeling “good, bad” on top. Things can feel better or worse for the self, but that’s a separate layer

[graceabounds]

As “worst-case” scenarios lose their power and the pain, rejection, loneliness, death, or “failure” become more acceptable, what’s left to protect? What’s left to control?

The more acceptable those are, the easier it feels to accept there’s no controller.

There never was a controller. So the need for or one who is ‘accepting’ of it is also an illusion that perpetuates itself.

Look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Does death exist except in thought?

[Jenness]

As “worst-case” scenarios lose their power and the pain, rejection, loneliness, death, or “failure” become more acceptable, what’s left to protect? What’s left to control?

The patterns are still trying to protect these things, because it feels like it can get something good in connections if it does the right social stuff, but once the social situation is over, then it’s just a social self-image it’s trying to protect, and sadness I don’t have the awesome social conditioning that I’d like to have. I would still like to control these things if I could, but after it happens, it’s just feelings and the idea that because I wasn’t perfect socially, I might lose connection. And then with a bit more distance, then feels more like okay, well that’s just kind of the story of “my” life. It’s a story that’ll play out however it plays out. Conditioning is conditioning, nobody chose it and it’ll never be fair. To just not disassociate from the sadness around it is the only way to go. there’s thoughts and urges and conditioning that wants to protect and control, but things just keep going as they do

There never was a controller. So the need for or one who is ‘accepting’ of it is also an illusion that perpetuates itself.

Mm I see. They just keep popping in. They never stop trying to own and pretend..

Look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

a little movement in the mind

WHEN does the future thought appear?

now

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

no difference, except topic and likelihood of influencing behavior given that I often believe future thoughts predict a possible future to some extent

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

There’s another thought that attaches to it, like a level of certainty thought. Like “I will die.” , attached with thought “that’s a fact.”. And then most things, it’s more a percentage likelihood “I think this could definitely happen”, and that possibility isn’t tolerable, because “that would be the worst thing ever and could lead to awful things happening that I can’t even predict right now.” “The unknown consequences could have things I can’t handle.” An extreme lack of tolerance for the unknown, OCD tendencies. It calms when the possibility seems so low it’s negligible or the consequence feels totally acceptable. So, it has a prediction thought of what will happen in the relative world based off some prediction from past events, biased heavily towards the difficult experiences.

Does death exist except in thought?

No, And initially thought but the end to experiencing could happen, but that’s also a thought, except from the perspective of the self that is experiencing

[graceabounds]

You are seeing straight through the heart of it now.

after it happens, it’s just feelings and the idea that because I wasn’t perfect socially, I might lose connection. And then with a bit more distance, then feels more like okay, well that’s just kind of the story of “my” life. It’s a story that’ll play out however it plays out

About this looking backward… we looked at future thoughts yesterday so let’s look the other way for a minute…

Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a
memory be there, and look at it.

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.
What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

it has a prediction thought of what will happen in the relative world based off some prediction from past events, biased heavily towards the difficult experiences.

Bottom line, is this bias, found in thought, noticed in thought, owned?

Is there anyone, anywhere, in actual experience, who could “miss out,” “fail,” “die,” or “fix” anything?
…Or only sensations, stories, and thoughts rolling, unowned, unclaimed, already complete?

Stay raw, let all fear and prediction and hope for control be fully here, not needing to be resolved.

[Jenness]

What is memory exactly?

It’s a video thought, or images, with labels about what happened and my interpretations of it as good or bad and what it means about the predicted future

What is the memory ‘made of’?

Nothing. The material it’s made out of is just a nothing thing. It’s the thoughts about it that are stickier. The thoughts are made out of the same thing, but it’s able to be sticky because of a belief in a thought that if i don’t listen to these thoughts, things I can’t tolerate will happen and I’ll have to feel these feelings I’ve rejected of worthlessness, uselessness, self-directed disgust and disappointment, shame, sadness, fear. It’s like being held hostage, if you don’t do this, you’ll suffer. If you aren’t afraid of those emotions, you won’t do what you need to to keep things going okay. Think it needs to really mess up a lot, go through the consequences, and see that it’s still okay. Otherwise, it just doesn’t trust because it imagines it’ll be a lot worse. Looking at past scenarios though, it’s mostly just lost opportunities when I messed up on smaller scales. I guess I’m still surviving, so it wasn’t the end of the world. There’s some truth to the consequences though, at least in the story that I would like to still play out okay of financially stable (the fully rejected consequence feels more tolerable than what wold happen if lost resources: no comfort, bad health care, lack of trust that I could be happy if with very few resources and illnesses and not willing still to decrease my lifespan - need to feel out these resistance to discomfort, pain, illness, “death” more ), I was very lax and unfiltered without my anxiety when i was younger and it didn’t go well for me with others, so I think more wisdom and presence rather than looseness has to come in to guide my behaviors for relaxing to not have a negative impact on my life.

WHEN does the memory appear?

now

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

memory thoughts are more images and videos than general thoughts I have, which are more verbal for me, and more vivid in details and in continuity when they are played out, and are triggered by a thought referring to the past. Other than that, mostly just the label that it’s about the past

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It can’t be known. It could as easily be an implanted video thought with a label of memory

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

Thoughts about the past, other than that it’s more video and image than my future thoughts, tend to not vary as much and feel like they have a playback button where I can go back to different parts of the story, whereas ones about the future present multiple possibilities. if I imagine a future scenario in detail though and label it with a thought that this is exactly what happens in the future, then there’s no difference other than past vs future label!

Bottom line, is this bias, found in thought, noticed in thought, owned?

No, it’s automatically biased, automatically predicts things, even automatically believed in , and then if not automatically caught, then is automatically acted out. Hmm, so whether I see clearly or not and see through self thoughts is just happening on its own as well.. so seeing through it is not “it” either . It’s not the point either. It’s just.. less suffering for the self? But reality treks along as it always does, fine with whether or not the self thoughts are believed in and whether or not there’s suffering. “There’s not really a point..?” It feels like. It feels true that there’s no thought based on”point” to this. It’s just more the experiencing of it, but the thought is still trying to get in there as the experiencer.

Is there anyone, anywhere, in actual experience, who could “miss out,” “fail,” “die,” or “fix” anything?
…Or only sensations, stories, and thoughts rolling, unowned, unclaimed, already complete?

Lots of reactive sensations and “me! I’d miss out, fail, die, and i need to fix” thoughts, but nothing that can be labeled a “me” , just a foggy feeling with labels of “i’m here.” Sensations feel intense, claiming and owning continues, seeing whether there’s anyone actually owning them continues, more sensations , and it starts to have a whiff of completeness , and then feeling moved , like everything is as it should be

Stay raw, let all fear and prediction and hope for control be fully here, not needing to be resolved.

“Not needing to be resolved” helps

[graceabounds]

It’s the thoughts about it that are stickier. The thoughts are made out of the same thing, but it’s able to be sticky because of a belief in a thought

Stickier to WHOM? Who is the believer?

memory thoughts are more images and videos than general thoughts I have, which are more verbal for me,

Which one of these is "I" the closest to? Please choose from the below three:


1. thought

2. visual image

3. bodily sensation

I was very lax and unfiltered without my anxiety when i was younger and it didn’t go well for me with others,

Ah, so there was a do-er then?
See the 'story' of a me here?

if I imagine a future scenario in detail though and label it with a thought

Can 'you' do this? Meaning are you in control of what arises in thought?

Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

[Jenness]

Stickier to WHOM? Who is the believer?

Can’t find the believer. So weird that the mind can create the illusion.

memory thoughts are more images and videos than general thoughts I have, which are more verbal for me,

Which one of these is "I" the closest to? Please choose from the below three:


1. thought

2. visual image

3. bodily sensation

1. The “I” feels most like it’s a thought, and then it comes with 3., a feeling of density in the body

Ah, so there was a do-er then?
See the 'story' of a me here?

Yes, thanks. Helpful. Fear around “letting past self off the hook” and how that’ll affect future actions. And seeing there’s no one here in control just brings up more fear, dread, and also anger that wants it to go away/get away from it. Gets a little comfier as just stay with it, which is just attention not running away from it or thoughts creeping back in to make it better (controller thought keeps sneaking back in to get away from feeling)

Can 'you' do this? Meaning are you in control of what arises in thought?

Ah, yea, thank you, I’m not in control of it. Just keep having thoughts that there’s a me doing things.

Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

I can’t determine it ahead of time. Mad I don’t have control because then there’s nowhere to run from what I hate, so it’s trying fight instead of flight/fix.

[graceabounds]

And seeing there’s no one here in control just brings up more fear, dread, and also anger that wants it to go away/get away from it. Gets a little comfier as just stay with it

yes, keep with it. Look directly into these emotions in the body, and just stay... nothing to be fixed, nothing to attain.

When anger, dread or the urge to escape is fully allowed, is there a controller anywhere to be found?

Mad I don’t have control because then there’s nowhere to run from what I hate, so it’s trying fight instead of flight/fix.

Right now, in direct experience, what is hated?

How would you describe the experience of 'mad' without thoughts about being mad?

[Jenness]

yes, keep with it. Look directly into these emotions in the body, and just stay... nothing to be fixed, nothing to attain.

When anger, dread or the urge to escape is fully allowed, is there a controller anywhere to be found?

No, and it also feels, there’s nothing that can be done about the emotions to make them better other than just let them be, and just watch the thoughts go on repeat “this is a problem, this is a problem”

Right now, in direct experience, what is hated?

The thoughts about situations in my life and my conditioning that’s been labeled as “must change them. Not tolerable. Shouldn’t be this way”

How would you describe the experience of 'mad' without thoughts about being mad?

Activation in the body, like blood flowing preparing for activity, heat, tension in my head and arms and torso, a sharp focus , narrowed attention, goal oriented purposeful feeling

[graceabounds]

just watch the thoughts go on repeat “this is a problem, this is a problem”

To whom is it a problem?

The thoughts about situations in my life and my conditioning that’s been labeled as “must change them. Not tolerable. Shouldn’t be this way”

And who does this labeling? Other thoughts?

Activation in the body, like blood flowing preparing for activity, heat, tension in my head and arms and torso, a sharp focus , narrowed attention, goal oriented purposeful feeling

Is there anyone inside this activation, running it, owning it, guiding it?

[Jenness]

To whom is it a problem?

Can’t find it, but seems to label this foggy sense in the body or around the whole body of “I’m here.” when that’s seen and that clears, then more fear comes up, reapply same inquiry, and leads to a bit of an openness along with the fear, along with thoughts “there’s nodody here to be afraid”, which made the fear sensations not fear anymore and just sensations. Comes in and out: fear and self, no fear no self, back and forth

And who does this labeling? Other thoughts?

Another thought of “me!!” With thought of like “trust me, I’m here, and I’m right, we need these things. You can’t just throw it all out. You won’t get anything you want and our life would go really poorly and mean nothing. You need to have some kind of plan or way to make sense of and direct your life.” Then “what would it be like without needing any of that. A momentary feeling of freedom and then more sadness and fear . The thoughts around the sadness loosen more easily with a little poke at whether they’re necessarily true (non-descript thoughts i didn’t go into, just poked at it and it loosened). The fear feels similar to how I imagine it’d feel to fall through the air, like skydiving, which I would never touch in real life. It’s a little bit exciting maybe given I logically nothing dangerous is happening

Is there anyone inside this activation, running it, owning it, guiding it?

No, it just feels like a survival code running automatically. I didn’t program it, i don’t turn it on or off. It can feel like I can believe what it’s saying or not, but if I look , that’s just part of the same code running

[graceabounds]

Beautiful work.

clears, then more fear comes up, reapply same inquiry, and leads to a bit of an openness along with the fear, along with thoughts “there’s nodody here to be afraid”, which made the fear sensations not fear anymore and just sensations.

What happens next if the just sensations are able to fully express? Where do they go?

The fear feels similar to how I imagine it’d feel to fall through the air, like skydiving, which I would never touch in real life. It’s a little bit exciting maybe given I logically nothing dangerous is happening

Excellent, it is very much like falling, the thoughts that made up the self-structure are being seen through. It was always an illusion, so yes, it can be exciting… ungroundedness is also freedom!

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

What happens next if the just sensations are able to fully express? Where do they go?

They seem to move only when i don’t care whether or not they move anymore (which is not the default for me at all). And then they seem to get overwhelmingly intense and then dissipate into nothing, and then a new wave comes.

Excellent, it is very much like falling, the thoughts that made up the self-structure are being seen through. It was always an illusion, so yes, it can be exciting… ungroundedness is also freedom!

There’s a layer of hate I’m finding that keeps me from this openness, that somehow the body is less scared of than this openness. The i hate this i hate that i hate that i can’t get rid of it etc. and I hate that it’s only awareness, makes it feel there was no meaning to anything and to life, it’s all just this and always was just this, though it’s also kind of a relief, but also a bit of fear in case i’m wrong. Just continuing to let them be, and see what happens.

[graceabounds]

This layer of hate, where is it in the body, and how is it known (besides the thought-label)?