The Gate

Does that mean that the stories just come and go on their own?

Yes. Stories just come and go on their own.

Are you doing any of the labelling and thoughts? Does the thought "thats an ugly dress" arise spontaneously and automatically?

Yes, the thoughts arise automatically, and each individual has their own thoughts, e.g. I think the dress is ugly. Someone else may think it's beautiful and looks really nice on the person wearing it.

Compare the sights, colours, shapes, etc of the dress as you initially perceive it without thought.
With the afterthought "thats an ugly dress".

I'm going to pay attention to this.

I think what you're saying is that everything works on automatic, e.g. I have an experience of something/an experience happens (e.g. seeing a woman in a dress, or hearing a sound), and then my brain automatically processes it (that's an ugly dress, it's too short, I would never wear something like that, how can she dress like that, etc., etc., that truck was way too loud, he didn't need to play his radio so loud, etc., etc., etc., and that there is no "I/me, etc." there (or anywhere) doing any of it/creating any of it/controlling any of it. I'm going to look at this to see if it's true.

Neeeel said: Compare the sights, colours, shapes, etc of the dress as you initially perceive it without thought. With the afterthought "thats an ugly dress".

I tried to watch people today to see this, and to see my judging occur. Didn't see anything, e.g. wasn't aware of mind judging, etc.

GotIt said: I think what you're saying is that everything works on automatic...

Re-read what I wrote earlier, saw the above, and briefly thought that my people watching today was happening on automatic, e.g. which person my eyes gravitated to, thoughts that came up in relation to the people I saw (There was a group of special needs/disabled people and their caregivers that walked by which led to a lot of thoughts coming up. Okay, said differently a lot of thoughts came up when I saw them.). I'm going to try looking again to see if everything works on automatic, like deciding which way to look, who to look at, what to look at, hearing sounds, the reactions to the sounds, etc.

I tried to watch people today to see this, and to see my judging occur. Didn't see anything, e.g. wasn't aware of mind judging, etc.

So you didnt notice your thoughts going cold, warm, red , blue, bird, dog, raining, wet, ugly, nice, annoying, useful, bad, good, and so on and so on? You didnt notice any labelling or judging?

Re-read what I wrote earlier, saw the above, and briefly thought that my people watching today was happening on automatic, e.g. which person my eyes gravitated to, thoughts that came up in relation to the people I saw (There was a group of special needs/disabled people and their caregivers that walked by which led to a lot of thoughts coming up. Okay, said differently a lot of thoughts came up when I saw them.). I'm going to try looking again to see if everything works on automatic, like deciding which way to look, who to look at, what to look at, hearing sounds, the reactions to the sounds, etc.

Look, its simple. There are actions. And then there are thoughts about those actions claiming that there is an "I" that did it.
There is stuff happening. And then there are thoughts containing stories about characters, assigning motives, judging and labelling.

Is there a you anywhere outside of those stories?

So you didnt notice your thoughts going cold, warm, red , blue, bird, dog, raining, wet, ugly, nice, annoying, useful, bad, good, and so on and so on?

Not really. They were really just going to stories.

You didnt notice any labelling or judging?

I was looking for this and didn't really see it. There was a small amount of judging, but not much at all that I saw.

Look, its simple. There are actions. And then there are thoughts about those actions claiming that there is an "I" that did it.
There is stuff happening. And then there are thoughts containing stories about characters, assigning motives, judging and labelling.

Okay, and? How come I don't see this as it happens, and how come I don't see that there is no "self" connected to anything, or don't see that there is no "self" anywhere, or don't see that "I" don't exist.

There are actions. And then there are thoughts about those actions claiming that there is an "I" that did it.

Okay, action: I walk into the kitchen to get something to eat. Didn't "I", this person, this self, this body, just walk into the kitchen?

Is there a you anywhere outside of those stories?

It feels like there's a "me" right here sitting in this chair. I don't know, but I feel like I'm being stubborn about things today (and apologies for being so stubborn).

Okay, action: I walk into the kitchen to get something to eat. Didn't "I", this person, this self, this body, just walk into the kitchen?

the organism, the body, most definitely walked into the kitchen. This organism doesnt include a self, in the same way that amoebas, ants, cats, giraffes dont have a self


When you scratch yourself, is there an I that scratched? When you roll over in bed is there an I that rolled over? When you duck to avoid a ball or flying object, is there an I that ducked? When you do the probably close to thousands of actions throughout the day, is there an I doing any of them?
Are you doing your digestion? Your breathing? Your heartbeat and circulation?

It feels like there's a "me" right here sitting in this chair. I don't know, but I feel like I'm being stubborn about things today (and apologies for being so stubborn).

Hey, no need to apologise.
We have close to 9 pages of dialog, and I am wondering what is going on. At various points throughout the thread you have told me that you see that thoughts and actions are automatic. Are you lying to me, just telling me what you think I want to hear? Because now you are saying that you dont in fact see any of this.

It doesnt matter that it "feels" like theres a "me" sitting in your chair. What matters is,

Is there in fact a "me" sitting in your chair

You need to find out. When you sit in your chair, there is the experience of sitting in the chair. The pressure on various parts of the body, the sensations of sitting. The sights and sounds of the room you are in. In addition to this, there are also THOUGHTS of "I am sitting in this chair".

Where in any of this is a "me"?

The sensations of sitting exist. The thought "I am sitting in this chair" exists.
Is this "feeling of me" anything more than direct experience( sights, sounds, sensations) + a thought.


Another question, and please make sure you answer this one, is
WHAT is this me that you are talking about? Define it please. Maybe we are talking about totally different things.

the organism, the body, most definitely walked into the kitchen. This organism doesnt include a self, in the same way that amoebas, ants, cats, giraffes dont have a self

Yes, it's true that the organism walked into the kitchen. At times, it still feels like there's a self or something connected to the organism (sometimes I see the no "self" stuff, other times I don't or something).

When you scratch yourself, is there an I that scratched? When you roll over in bed is there an I that rolled over? When you duck to avoid a ball or flying object, is there an I that ducked? When you do the probably close to thousands of actions throughout the day, is there an I doing any of them?
Are you doing your digestion? Your breathing? Your heartbeat and circulation?

I'm not doing any of these, but it still feels like there's an "I", like making decisions or a beingingness or something to this body.

We have close to 9 pages of dialog, and I am wondering what is going on. At various points throughout the thread you have told me that you see that thoughts and actions are automatic. Are you lying to me, just telling me what you think I want to hear? Because now you are saying that you dont in fact see any of this.

Okay, there are times when I see clearly that thoughts and actions are automatic, and there is also a part of me that can't see that "I" don't exist.

I'm not lying. There are times when what you say makes me feel like, he wants me to say "x,y,z", but I can't say something I don't see, as that wouldn't get me anywhere. I have to tell it like it is for me, tell the truth.

It doesnt matter that it "feels" like theres a "me" sitting in your chair. What matters is,

Is there in fact a "me" sitting in your chair... Is this "feeling of me" anything more than direct experience( sights, sounds, sensations) + a thought.

I understand what you're saying about there being the physical feeling of sitting in the chair (sights, sounds, body sensations, etc.), and there's also a part of me that also feels like there's a "me".

Another question, and please make sure you answer this one, is
WHAT is this me that you are talking about? Define it please. Maybe we are talking about totally different things.

Definition of me: the sense/feeling/(frick, it, while thinking of my definition the word "belief" just popped into my mind!--and beliefs are just beliefs and not truths!)/beingness/a substance that is me.

It's really frustrating to me that I can't see through the illusion of a "me". I get frustrated and feel like this doesn't work, why does it work for all those other people and not me, etc., etc. There's also doubt there, as in, doubting it will work for me (I think it works. I think/know people can see through the illusion of a self, etc., I just get frustrated that I can't see it.). I don't want to just give up, as I want to see through and see the truth of no "me", but it's frustrating that I can't see it, and can't see stuff.

I have these very brief awarenesses of things (like seeing the story of "I'm a good person." that I learned as a child and that isn't true. I'm just a person who sometimes does things that are good and sometimes does things that aren't good.), These awarenesses don't last very long, don't come very often, and they don't bring an end to the feeling that there is a "self". It's like getting one frequent flyer mile at a time, when you need 10,000 miles or something like that to get a free flight.

Ok, I am not denying that a sense of self is there, or asking you to get rid of it, or anything like that.

What I am asking is, does this sense of self point to a real, actual, existing self?

Is a sense of self an actual self?

Is this sense of self anything other than a bunch of sensations, and thoughts about those sensations?

If the sense of self is a sense, or feeling,then what is sensing or feeling the sense of self? Does this make sense? Even the sense of self is an experience within awareness, just like fear, or desire, or an itchy foot.

What I am asking is, does this sense of self point to a real, actual, existing self?

No.

Is a sense of self an actual self?

When I look, there's no actual physical thing/person that is a "self".

Is this sense of self anything other than a bunch of sensations, and thoughts about those sensations?

The sense of self feels like a bunch of sensations, with thoughts about them. It also feels real for some reason.

If the sense of self is a sense, or feeling,then what is sensing or feeling the sense of self? Does this make sense?

The question "Does this makes sense?" makes sense, but No, the "If the sense of self is a sense, or feeling, then what is sensing or feeling the sense of self?" doesn't make sense. Confusing questions like this are very helpful in confusing me which helps me see the inaccuracies about a belief in a self.

Even the sense of self is an experience within awareness, just like fear, or desire, or an itchy foot.

It doesn't feel like this (It feels stronger, or more real or something.), but I'm looking at it to see it like this.

The sense of self feels like a bunch of sensations, with thoughts about them. It also feels real for some reason.

Yes, because the sensations and thoughts are real. But the content of thought, attributing these sensations and thoughts to a self, is false, an illusion.

There are a bunch of sensations, and thoughts about those sensations, saying "I am feeling this".

The question "Does this makes sense?" makes sense, but No, the "If the sense of self is a sense, or feeling, then what is sensing or feeling the sense of self?" doesn't make sense. Confusing questions like this are very helpful in confusing me which helps me see the inaccuracies about a belief in a self.

Heh, it wasnt meant to be confusing.
If you have an itchy foot, then there is the experience of having an itchy foot.
if you have a sense of self, then there is the experience of having a sense of self( for example, the sense of self may be a contraction in the stomach area, which again is just a sensation, an experience).
Both are direct experience( sights, sounds, sensations, thoughts)
Its just that for some reason, the experience of "sense of self" is labelled as more important


Look at the sense of self, as closely as you can, and identify what it is ( sights, sounds, sensations, thoughts) that make up that sense of self. Where abouts in the body is it? What sensations are there in that part of the body, that make up the sense of self? How much of it is thoughts about stuff that is happening, or stuff that just happened?

Sorry for not getting back to you on this earlier. I meant to do it this morning, and then got sick. Feeling better now.

Look at the sense of self, as closely as you can, and identify what it is ( sights, sounds, sensations, thoughts) that make up that sense of self. Where abouts in the body is it? What sensations are there in that part of the body, that make up the sense of self? How much of it is thoughts about stuff that is happening, or stuff that just happened?

I'm not seeing anything when I look. I've been looking at sensations, like when I wasn't feeling well this morning (trying to see that it is just sensations/physical feelings in the body, but couldn't see that). Some of it is thoughts about things that are happening in the moment. A lot of my thoughts are about things in the past or the future, or fantasies (me doing something great). The thoughts don't feel like the self. The self is a different thing. The sense of self feels sort of like a mass of something in my mid section. I also notice sensations of things like a full stomach after I eat, which aren't the self.

Have to go out now, will try to look at sensations more and write more later (wish I could see more and get clear first had experience/awareness of no "self"!).

I'm not seeing anything when I look. I've been looking at sensations, like when I wasn't feeling well this morning (trying to see that it is just sensations/physical feelings in the body, but couldn't see that).

If it isnt just sensations/physical feelings in the body, then what is it?

The sense of self feels sort of like a mass of something in my mid section

Is this a self? Is a sense of self a self? Is a "mass of something in my mid section" a self?
A mass of something in the midsection sounds like fear to me.

wish I could see more and get clear first had experience/awareness of no "self"!

You already have first hand experience of no self

When you see that thoughts are just stories , and that the character is fictional, that is experience of no self( You agreed earlier that you had seen that a lot of thoughts and feelings are just stories about a fictional character)

When you see that thoughts come up on their own, and no one is doing them, then that is experience of no self ( you agreed earlier that thoughts just come up on their own, noone doing them)

When you see that actions happen, and theres no one doing them, then that is experience of no self( You agreed earlier that actions happen , and that no one is doing them)

If it isnt just sensations/physical feelings in the body, then what is it?

I don't know. It just feels like someone's there, like there's a "person/me".

Is this a self? Is a sense of self a self? Is a "mass of something in my mid section" a self?
A mass of something in the midsection sounds like fear to me.

Is there a way I can look at it to see if it is fear? How do I do that? What do I look for?

You already have first hand experience of no self

When you see that thoughts are just stories , and that the character is fictional, that is experience of no self( You agreed earlier that you had seen that a lot of thoughts and feelings are just stories about a fictional character)

When you see that thoughts come up on their own, and no one is doing them, then that is experience of no self ( you agreed earlier that thoughts just come up on their own, noone doing them)

When you see that actions happen, and theres no one doing them, then that is experience of no self( You agreed earlier that actions happen , and that no one is doing them)

Okay, yes.

I don't know. It just feels like someone's there, like there's a "person/me".

If you dont know what it is, then how do you know its a person, or a you? Is there anything other than a thought " it feels like someones there"? Why are you assuming this thought is true?

Is there a way I can look at it to see if it is fear? How do I do that? What do I look for?

It may not be fear. It just sounds like how I was, and still often am. A tension in the stomach, almost a sinking feeling, like, as you say, a mass of something there. The best way to know is to allow it to come up, and experience it fully. Close your eyes and ask the feeling to come closer. Breathe. Ask what it wants to tell you. Fear is a defense mechanism, its only trying to protect you.

As I said, it may not be fear at all.

If you dont know what it is, then how do you know its a person, or a you? Is there anything other than a thought " it feels like someones there"? Why are you assuming this thought is true?

There's just a strong feeling in the mid section of a "me". It feels like a mass of some "me" or something, but maybe I'm just defining it as a me, or maybe I'm just feeling the mass of stuff that is this mid-section body.

Is there anything other than a thought " it feels like someones there"?

When I think about it, the "It feels like someone's there." feels like more than just a thought, it feels like the strong feeling of a "me" in my mid-section. You're probably going to say this doesn't make any sense, and that a thought is just a thought, and feelings are things like feeling sad, and not a feeling of a "self" or something, and I'll try to look at that. Oh, question to myself: is there really a "self" there to feel its "self"?

It may not be fear. It just sounds like how I was, and still often am. A tension in the stomach, almost a sinking feeling, like, as you say, a mass of something there. The best way to know is to allow it to come up, and experience it fully. Close your eyes and ask the feeling to come closer. Breathe. Ask what it wants to tell you. Fear is a defense mechanism, its only trying to protect you.

I don't feel any tension or any sinking feeling. I'll talk to the feeling and ask it what it wants to say and get back to you on it.

Thanks.