Who

[Magdalena]

Hello Lisa,

In DE there are 'others' - I can see, hear, touch, and smell 'others'

How do you know that what is being seen, heard, touched etc. is what you call “others”?
That it is not simply life life-ing or what-is what-issing? ;-)

I can see that I'm trying to understand this through thought rather than DE / looking.

Yes, that’s right.
Thought will not help you here.

I'm trying to create a new belief instead of observing in the moment in order to see this for myself.

Yes, that’s right.
Belief will not help you here.

I'm looking to thought content instead of DE.

Yes, that’s right.
Thought content will not help you here.

When in the previous post you said

The thinking that 'I' can't see through this illusion is merely the illusion, created by identification with thought content, appearing in nothing,

that was also thought content, right? And unhelpful as such.

It’s good that you’re seeing all this.
How does it make you feel?

The idea of a 'me' is all thinking based on assumption. … Foot started tapping. The noticing of this happened after the movement of the foot.

Yes. Some good looking here into the functions of the doer/chooser/controller.


How and when does an individual “me”/Lisa show up, separate from life life-ing or what-is what-issing ?

Without going to thought, is the assumption there?

What was the assumption to begin with? ;-)

It occurs to me that 'looking' is like seeing through the eyes of an infant - preverbal. No words, no thoughts, no labels. Simply seeing, simply hearing, simply smell, simply touch, simply taste.

Yes, spot on.
Not having a clue about what anything is – simply experiencing, taking sensations in. A relaxed sort of curiosity and attentiveness? A curious and attentive sort of relaxation? (whichever you may like to call it)

Can you try and spend the next few days with this attitude?

Trying to notice that gap between e.g. seeing and thought arriving to say “Nice car”, “Home”, whatever; or hearing and the thought arriving to say “A/my dog’s barking” etc., as often as possible?

[LisaLisa]

Hi Magdalena,

Thank you for continued support and guidance.

How do you know that what is being seen, heard, touched etc. is what you call “others”?
That it is not simply life life-ing or what-is what-issing? ;-)

Without going to memory (thought) I don't know 'others'. I know only shape, colour, contrast, movement, sound. It, as you put it, is not life 'life-ing' and what-is 'what-issing' and what happens 'happening.'

Yes, "The thinking that 'I' can't see through this illusion is merely the illusion, created by identification with thought content, appearing in nothing" is all thinking / thought content.

Seeing all this makes me feel satisfied. I'm on the right track here. It also makes me feel less confused or, rather, more clear and aware. Seeing all this feels encouraging.

How and when does an individual “me”/Lisa show up, separate from life life-ing or what-is what-issing?
Without going to thought, is the assumption there? What was the assumption to begin with? ;-)

The individual 'me/Lisa shows up when 'I'/Lisa hears thought content and believe it. It results in an object/subject relationship. A 'me not me' present happening. This happens habitually most of the time but especially when a perceived negative thought story, which then creates an apparent negatively emotional charged thought story+++ is believed in INSTEAD of paying attention to it so as to see it as merely a thought story.

Without going to thought there is no story. Period. The assumption is not there. Nothing is there except what is left (hearing, seeing, touching in this very moment). Nothing is 'right' or 'wrong' or 'anything' if you don't think about it. Without going to thought there is nothing to recall.

Over the next few days I'll be with what is happening effortlessly and do as you have asked.

Thank you

[Magdalena]

Hello Lisa,

Without going to memory (thought) I don't know 'others'. I know only shape, colour, contrast, movement, sound.

Would it be possible to observe this on the go as well – not only in terms of memory?
In the street, in public places, when interacting with strangers – or with people at home or at work?

Seeing all this makes me feel satisfied. I'm on the right track here. It also makes me feel less confused or, rather, more clear and aware. Seeing all this feels encouraging.

This is all very well.

However, beneath all this, isn’t there an assumption that something must happen in some indefinite future – something you’re progressing towards, like when learning a new skill for instance?

Would it be possible to drop this assumption – for some time, for a couple of days – just to see what it would be like without it? (Please don’t give me some learnt stuff in response about how progression and the passing of time is itself illusory – which it is – and all that. No need to reply to this. Just take it in – and try it out, will you?)

It results in an object/subject relationship. A 'me not me' present happening.

A sense of separation, right?
But what happens to that silence you mentioned earlier when a sense of separation sets in? Does it go anywhere?
Please observe this – you may be surprised at what is found.


No need to respond to this post – let it all sink in.
Take your time.
Then go test it all out.
Then come back and share how it’s going.

[LisaLisa]

Hi Magdalena,

Not having a clue about what anything is – simply experiencing, taking sensations in. A relaxed sort of curiosity and attentiveness? A curious and attentive sort of relaxation? (whichever you may like to call it)
Can you try and spend the next few days with this attitude?

Simply experiencing is always happening. Every moment contains the raw experience of some or all of the senses. Non-conceptual experiencing is most pronounced (effortless) when eating! Breakfast this morning was an immersement of the senses in the moment. Yummers. Simply experiencing and taking sensations in is effortless when in bed, falling asleep and upon waking. No inside or outside - just sensation and stillness. There are many, many moments and long gaps without thought when seeing, hearing and feeling while being a passenger in the car and at home. The velvety softness (of raspberries), the sensation of motion (elevator). The texture/sensation (tissue paper). Sounds are meaningless - they don't mean anything. My dog had never heard the patter of rain on an attic rooftop. I imagined what she was experiencing. The sound of rain on the roof doesn't have a 'story' - it's not 'rain' that 'we need in order to 'keep things green'. It's just a sound. Only a sound. I noticed that I 'forgot' to apply an attitude of a relaxed sort of curiosity and attentiveness mostly at work. Still, a lot of time passes at work without noticing the time.

Trying to notice that gap between e.g. seeing and thought arriving to say “Nice car”, “Home”, whatever; or hearing and the thought arriving to say “A/my dog’s barking” etc., as often as possible?

The gap is definitely there. I didn't even have to try sometimes. It was most pronounced with smell. For example, unbeknownst to me, my husband had put a square of chocolate in his mouth. The aroma as I passed by was unexpected and pronounced. The gap before my mind labelled it 'chocolate' was just there. Ah ha! So obvious. Only after the initial 'hit' did my mind kick in, 'Mmmmmm.... chocolate'. The gap is there with other smells, expecially those I don't immediately recognize. With sound as well. The sound of buttoning a shirt is just a sound and sensation. The sound could be the sound could be any one of a number of other 'labels' - for instance, a mouse russelling. The gap is 'smallest' with sight.[color]

Without going to memory (thought) I don't know 'others'. I know only shape, colour, contrast, movement, sound.
Would it be possible to observe this on the go as well – not only in terms of memory?
In the street, in public places, when interacting with strangers – or with people at home or at work?

Not really able to experience this non-conceptual knowing with people during these past few days.

Would it be possible to drop this assumption – for some time, for a couple of days – just to see what it would be like without it?

Absolutely. Without this assumption there's no judgement, no expectation, no resistance to what is happening in the moment, in the always changing now. Now, now, now... Everything is included and all is just as it is. One bottomless moment of experiencing.

But what happens to that silence you mentioned earlier when a sense of separation sets in? Does it go anywhere?
Please observe this – you may be surprised at what is found.

Even when experiencing that sense of separation the silence and stillness is there, always. It allows everything all the time and holds on to nothing. This encapsulated sense of self, this sense of separation, overlays the stillness and silence. but it's just a sense. It's intangible.

Thank you, Magdalena

[Magdalena]

Hello Lisa,


Thank you for your lovely report. So good to see all this seeing. ;-)

Not really able to experience this non-conceptual knowing with people during these past few days.

No worries. Things come when they come. It's all good.

One bottomless moment of experiencing.

:-) :-) :-)

Even when experiencing that sense of separation the silence and stillness is there, always. It allows everything all the time and holds on to nothing. This encapsulated sense of self, this sense of separation, overlays the stillness and silence. but it's just a sense. It's intangible.

Absolutely.
It’s a good place to be, isn’t it?


Tell me, Lisa,
Are you absolutely clear that there is no separate self/me/Lisa running the show?
Or is there any doubt?
Is seeking still going on?

[LisaLisa]

Hi Magdalena,

Are you absolutely clear that there is no separate self/me/Lisa running the show?
Or is there any doubt?
Is seeking still going on?

Seeking is still going on. Just last night I opened my Amazon account and an offer from Kindle for a free e-book unexpectedly appeared, "Standing as Awareness: The Direct Path" by Greg Goode. Oy! The trap was set. I put away all my books shortly after you became my guide but got sucked into checking out this book however, seeing all the 5 star reviews.

What's (apparently) missing for 'me' is a feeling or sense of completeness, a wholeness. Is that a misguided belief?

I also watched one of the LU videos on Youtube, "LU Enlightening Quotes - 07 - Exercises" and started to listen to, "LU Enlightening Quotes - 04 - Direct Experience." I have found what I listened to helpful to clarify a few things for me.

And, full disclosure, I also read some of the threads on LU and copied and pasted this into my email folder:

What does it mean something "feels like you"? Investigate that closely. Does it mean anything else than "it is believed a lot"? Try to focus in on the feeling-sensations. Is there anything about them that says in direct experience "these sensations are my sensations" rather than just "sensations are sensations" or even closer "sensations" or even closer "..".

See habitual reactions and thoughts come up in response to this. See how they are not chosen, not self, but rather spontaneous unchosen thoughts and sensations. Then return to look again at what I wrote. Keep looking until you see beyond habitual repetition of beliefs. Look many times.

The biggest sticking point for you is probably that you mix up sensations and beliefs and think it's "what you feel". "I feel separate" is actually a mere thought/belief combined with sensations and moving quickly between them, thinking the sensations and this belief is one. You need to do the work to see through this misunderstanding. Here is how you do it.
Sit with this sensation that you CALL "I feel separate". Drop thoughts and words (again and again) and keep feeling it, as in meditate with it, until it is completely clear that this feeling/sensation is not at all what you thought. You just mixed it up with a belief. This is the main thing for you to work on now. Work on it until a clear shift, then write to me.

"If I didn’t feel separate I would know that everything is me. I am just the empty space within which everything appears."

This is a mere belief and expectation. It gets in the way of you paying full attention to just what you discover in direct experience. You need to let go of beliefs and expectations and intellectual convictions of how this is supposed to be and only investigate what is true in direct experience. If you don't, your fantasies and expectations based on belief and maybe past experiences (now just beliefs and thoughts charged with sensations) will keep you from seeing. Do you understand? Will you do that?

This at best pointer at worst philosophical belief "I would know that everything is me. I am just the empty space within which everything appears" can be fine in some context. But it is misleading when believed in as "you" do. Are you willing to drop this belief and only investigate what is seen in direct experience?

I appreciate you, Magdalena.

[Magdalena]

Hello Lisa,

I appreciate your saying all this.

Other than copying passages from other LU threads, have you considered their message?
Have you looked as suggested?
If yes, what has come up?
If not, what's the point of simply reading and copying things?
If something like this catches your attention, why not follow it up till the topic is positively exhausted?

Same with the Enlightening Quotes videos.
Why not watch them all now, say one per day, and take care to do whatever is suggested?

What's (apparently) missing for 'me' is a feeling or sense of completeness, a wholeness. Is that a misguided belief?

How are you going to know that a sense of completeness has arrived?
What needs to happen for LISA to feel that this expectation is met?
What is the story that LISA keeps telling herself about this?
Look into it carefully.


Are there any other expectations?
Like for instance that the peace and silence you previously reported will be there 24/7?
That LISA's life will be permanently changed overnight?
Any other stories?
Please do an honest search and bring them up next time.

[LisaLisa]

Hi Magdalena,

Sounds good!

Thank you

[Magdalena]

🙂🙂🙂

[Magdalena]

Hello, Lisa,

How are you doing? Anything interesting to share? ;-)

[LisaLisa]

Hi Magdalena!

Always nice to hear from you. Just touching base as I'm traveling and wanted to acknowledge your message.

I'll respond 'properly' mid-week.

Thank you for checking in.

[Magdalena]

Hello Lisa,

Enjoy your trip, and write me when you're ready. 🙂

[LisaLisa]

Hi Magdalena,

I hope you enjoyed your Easter weekend.

It's not that interesting but I've been feeling a heaviness of late, a tiredness.

I purchased that book I was telling you about, The Direct Path: A User Guide by Geoff Goode, which has additional direct experience experiments like those that I have done with you. It's one of the books recommended on LU. I'm curious to engage in additional exercises.

I understand that this may not be okay with you in terms of guiding. I do appreciate the insights and clarity that you have offered and would like to continue with 'this'. Please let me know your thoughts.

On another note, I can't help but recall what I wrote to Lubo on January 5, and then mentioned to you, "I did want to share with you something that I noticed for the first time last night. My arm bent while I was lying in bed. At that moment it occurred to me that my arm moved all by itself. There was no thought or intention accompanying the movement of the arm. This, of course, has happened thousands of times during my life, but last night I 'noticed' that I was not the 'doer.'"

I had never experienced anything like that before. My arm spontaneously moved at a 45 degree angle and 'I' clearly did not do it. It lasted only a second or two.

Anyhoo, just letting things unfold. Observing my mind and paying attention to thought stories, noticing sensations, experiencing as much as possible with an attitude of not knowing.

Thanks for your ongoing company and support.

[Magdalena]

Hello, Lisa,

It's not that interesting but I've been feeling a heaviness of late, a tiredness.

That happens. Is there a wish that things were different?

I understand that this may not be okay with you in terms of guiding. I do appreciate the insights and clarity that you have offered and would like to continue with 'this'. Please let me know your thoughts.

Doing extra exercises like those in that book is OK. What you need to use your discretion about AT ALL TIMES, however, is when authors/speakers say things along the lines of “you are something or other”. That’s pretty explicit – and you can’t miss it. When you come to this, always ask if this is your experience or someone else’s idea/concept. Don’t accept anyone’s conclusions as your own. Same with any other book or video you may be attracted to. So, do the exercises by all means but stop at your own seeing. Don’t let anyone tell you what you’ve seen (interpretation). Be critical. Ask, “Really? How can this be known?”

When we started this conversation, you were full of other people’s concepts and ideas about how things are and found it difficult to move beyond them. As much as I can tell from our exchange now, you are aware of this pitfall. That is A LOT.

I had never experienced anything like that before. My arm spontaneously moved at a 45 degree angle and 'I' clearly did not do it. It lasted only a second or two.

Good. Sure, the body does things on its own. Keep noticing this – and the no choice/no control whenever you get a chance.

Observing my mind and paying attention to thought stories, noticing sensations, experiencing as much as possible with an attitude of not knowing.

Perfect.

Thanks for your ongoing company and support.

You’re welcome. Thank you for your dedication to looking at things. Do check in from time to time to share how things are going or whenever you wish to discuss anything.

[LisaLisa]

Good morning, Magdalena,

Thank you! I look forward to continuing to connect with you.

Enjoy your week.