Unraveling

[Bluejay]

You're starting to sound quite clear, David.

You may find these two videos interesting:

1. https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

2. https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

And also a question that is pertinent to ask now: Can you say with 100% certainty there is no inherent self that is doing, thinking, deciding and making things happen?

[davjak]

Last night I recall feeling a fear I will be cut loose from here too soon, and the suffering will go on. I see this was thinking, but it makes me feel a bit wobbly. I watched the videos and see this is what was being addressed.

And also a question that is pertinent to ask now: Can you say with 100% certainty there is no inherent self that is doing, thinking, deciding and making things happen?

I feel resistant to making this claim, fearing I am still fooled by thinking. Yesterday I also recall seeing this process as being lead out of a forest of identification and sense how deep that forest can actually go. It didn't occur to me I may be near the edge of the forest.

[Bluejay]

Last night I recall feeling a fear I will be cut loose from here too soon, and the suffering will go on. I see this was thinking, but it makes me feel a bit wobbly. I watched the videos and see this is what was being addressed.

Believe it or not, this is a common fear here.

This is a good opportunity to disembark from thoughts and go to the fear directly. Not even the label fear, but the sensations, and bathe in them until the charge is neutral. Can you do that?

Also another perspective on this. This conversations is an expression of life. Me writing this is not special. So when this conversations ends, life will express itself in different ways, which may be zoom calls, a book, a resonance with an inquiry, or something else. 'You' are always where you need to be.

I feel resistant to making this claim, fearing I am still fooled by thinking. Yesterday I also recall seeing this process as being lead out of a forest of identification and sense how deep that forest can actually go. It didn't occur to me I may be near the edge of the forest.

Remember, this is the first step of awakening. In buddhism it's called self-view, the first fetter, which is simply seeing that there is no separate self doing, deciding, thinking.

After this is often shadow/emotional work, which is also called reactivity, so it's not like you're completely done. You're simply stepping into the stream (stream entry in buddhism).

So there seems to be fear coming up, can you sit with it until done?

[davjak]

So there seems to be fear coming up, can you sit with it until done?

I appreciate your words of assurance. The fear was not so strong, it was more being taken aback. So, yes, I feel whatever needs to be done at this point can be done. Later at work, I saw that if there is a voice still saying 'I don't see; I'm not there yet.', this is precisely what has been seen through, so none of its words can have the power they did. If they do have any, it's momentary, and the air goes out of them. I wonder though, does it get the clue that it's lost its credibility and ability to seduce and that its not being paid attention to and eventually quiet down?

This is a good opportunity to disembark from thoughts and go to the fear directly. Not even the label fear, but the sensations, and bathe in them until the charge is neutral. Can you do that?

Absolutely.

Remember, this is the first step of awakening. In buddhism it's called self-view, the first fetter, which is simply seeing that there is no separate self doing, deciding, thinking.

This is a relief. Earlier it was also a feeling of being a bit lost, as if where to from here? I get it now.

[Bluejay]

This is a relief. Earlier it was also a feeling of being a bit lost, as if where to from here? I get it now.

I'll share resources on what to do next when we are done, and you will be invited to an FB group for support, so all this is covered.

Later at work, I saw that if there is a voice still saying 'I don't see; I'm not there yet.', this is precisely what has been seen through, so none of its words can have the power they did. If they do have any, it's momentary, and the air goes out of them.

Good catch. This voice is another thought.

Even though it is seen through, it can be inquired into. For example: 'I'm not there yet'

- Where? What is the image of where you should be?
- Who is the 'I' that is going somewhere?
- What is 'yet'? Where is time?

And 'I don't see'

- See what?
- Who or what is not seeing?

I wonder though, does it get the clue that it's lost its credibility and ability to seduce and that its not being paid attention to and eventually quiet down?

It's different for everyone, but it can quiet down a bit. Mostly it doesn't matter, because the attachment to thinking gradually disappears.

Most thoughts are habits. So if you've tended to worry a lot, that may still go on, but there is much less energy in it, and it may not last as long. Eventually it may fall away.

In neuroscience they say something along the lines of thoughts and habits creating pathways, like a path in the forest. The more there is one way of thinking, the more that is enabled in the brain. As the attachment falls away, that pathway withers.

I don't know much about it, but it's something like that.

Now it's relevant to cover this pointer:

Body Exercise - Inner GPS

Your body naturally navigates life, and gives you data on what it resonates with and what it doesn’t.

For example, have you ever had a ‘gut feeling’ that you shouldn’t do something, and you did it anyway?

Or maybe you felt like doing something that made no logical sense, but it led to exactly what you needed at that time in your life?

It may not make sense logically, but the body knows more than we are aware of.

These yes/no signals often come as expansion/contraction, light/heavy, open/closed, but they may be different for you.

They can happen spontaneously or need time to become clear (a sign that you need time is that you think you need to be faster).

What I’d like you to do for next day is this:

1. Tell your mind that you will conduct an experiment for 24 hours, and that things will return to normal after that if appropriate (this is to get some space and focus on the body)

2. As often as you can, pay attention to what your body feels drawn to do. If it isn’t convenient to do this for all decisions, then do it for small ones, or whenever you can.

(If you have a hard time connecting to your body, just do your best. Look at this as an experiment and play with it.)

3. Pay attention to how your inner GPS communicates with you. Where is it in your body? What does it feel like? Is it instant or does it require time? (focus on direct experience)

4. Also notice how thoughts about self affect the body. What do you find?

If you experience thoughts such as:

- “This doesn’t work”
- “Why are you doing this?”
- “This is silly”
- “This is unsafe”

Tell your mind that you’re just doing it for 24 hours to see what it’s like.

What happened? Report back what you discover.

Let me know if you have any questions :)

[davjak]

I'll do the exercise and report back.

It will be good to do this now. Last night thoughts were leading down the rabbit hole of seeing how there really is nowhere to stand, and nothing to hold on to. It was seeing how all identity, down to the subtlest traces, is nothing but layers and layers of unsupported concept. The same goes for all other concepts that serve as the moorings of ego, like direction, position, dimension, time... It seems like the most seductive thoughts yet. But then I realized, it's engaging in the very thing it purports to undermine. And so is retelling it now, concepts, narrative, hanging onto identity. I see that if there is a rabbit hole, none of this gets carried into it. I felt dizzy and wondered if it was diverting from feeling.

[Bluejay]

It will be good to do this now. Last night thoughts were leading down the rabbit hole of seeing how there really is nowhere to stand, and nothing to hold on to. It was seeing how all identity, down to the subtlest traces, is nothing but layers and layers of unsupported concept. The same goes for all other concepts that serve as the moorings of ego, like direction, position, dimension, time... It seems like the most seductive thoughts yet. But then I realized, it's engaging in the very thing it purports to undermine. And so is retelling it now, concepts, narrative, hanging onto identity. I see that if there is a rabbit hole, none of this gets carried into it. I felt dizzy and wondered if it was diverting from feeling.

That's great. There is nowhere to land and nothing to hold onto, and there never was!

If there's dizziness, fear, or even existential terror, feel it fully. Nothing to be afraid of.

Only thing I would say to the above is that the thinking about 'there is nowhere to stand' can itself become a handhold, but it seems like you're catching onto that.

I'll do the exercise and report back.

Lookkign fordwar d to ite!

[davjak]

Not here to report on the exercise yet, but something else coming up.

And also a question that is pertinent to ask now: Can you say with 100% certainty there is no inherent self that is doing, thinking, deciding and making things happen?

The answer honestly, is no. I still recognize leaning in, a wish to get there, get more of this, get it faster, a concern for appearance, someone in the way, not a lot, but it's there. I had the thought "I want all this self deception to end". Immediately I see the absurdity. If there is no self, how can a self be deceived? Where is the deceived self? But it's like seeing what came down the conveyor belt and seeing some bits contain the standard defect of agency. They're recognized in retrospect. It's called 'memory'. But memory is a thought arising now. This is all ideas, concepts, looking in thought. So, what sees this? What recognizes? I recognize the ultimate uselessness of all thought, all concepts, all structure, but there is a cord that still is not cut. I see words are not the way out. I see there is no 'way out'. It feels like lingering identity, a lingering attachment. It feels like something still needs to burn itself out. It has to be me-ness that hasn't quit.

[davjak]

I recognize the ultimate uselessness of all thought

This may be the core lie right here. The recognition is intellectual. If I recognized there would be quiet and I wouldn't be coming here.

[davjak]

And now I recognize it feels good to get that out there. It feels like release, moving through. Since you posed that question, the answer was held back, like stuck energy of not wanting to frustrate or disappoint, not fail, look bad... clinging. That felt more authentic than most all the other howling.

[Bluejay]

This may be the core lie right here. The recognition is intellectual. If I recognized there would be quiet and I wouldn't be coming here.

It doesn't necessarily have to be quiet. There can be thoughts, but if it is seen as useless experientially, there is no attachment to it. It's like a TV that is on in the other room, unimportant.

And now I recognize it feels good to get that out there. It feels like release, moving through. Since you posed that question, the answer was held back, like stuck energy of not wanting to frustrate or disappoint, not fail, look bad... clinging. That felt more authentic than most all the other howling.

Honesty is my food.

The answer honestly, is no. I still recognize leaning in, a wish to get there, get more of this, get it faster, a concern for appearance, someone in the way, not a lot, but it's there. I had the thought "I want all this self deception to end". Immediately I see the absurdity. If there is no self, how can a self be deceived? Where is the deceived self? But it's like seeing what came down the conveyor belt and seeing some bits contain the standard defect of agency. They're recognized in retrospect. It's called 'memory'. But memory is a thought arising now. This is all ideas, concepts, looking in thought. So, what sees this? What recognizes? I recognize the ultimate uselessness of all thought, all concepts, all structure, but there is a cord that still is not cut. I see words are not the way out. I see there is no 'way out'. It feels like lingering identity, a lingering attachment. It feels like something still needs to burn itself out. It has to be me-ness that hasn't quit.

Do you expect all of this to disappear?

Remember, the only question here is: Is there a separate self thinking and believing?

All of the above can still be here after seeing through the separate self. Are you in control of wishing to get somewhere?

This push/pull of wanting/not wanting is more the reactivity/emotional work that comes after the separate self inquiry.

It's very common to have expectations that basically say: When I see through the separate self, I will feel better and the things I don't want will go away.

That's what it comes down to. But feeling good or not has nothing to do with whether there is someone doing things.

[davjak]

Do you expect all of this to disappear?

I did have thoughts of all this being resolved.

Are you in control of wishing to get somewhere?

Good question, and it's the back and forth dance that has been going on. It's more subtle no, but was still happening.
This morning can see more clearly, the dynamic of energy still sitting with an active looking/looker, rather that having shifted to the seeing/knower. But everything in my experience has been a slow fading rather than abrupt shifts. Certainly though, the energy resting with the voice/looker seems dissipated/dissipating.

It doesn't necessarily have to be quiet.

This occurred to me later.

As often as you can, pay attention to what your body feels drawn to do.

I will continue on this today. I wasn't paying attention in this way of sense what the body felt drawn to. It was more of the typical shift into body/sense awareness.

Pay attention to how your inner GPS communicates with you. Where is it in your body? What does it feel like?

It doesn't seem to be in the body at all. It's in the same field all other experience is experienced. Where that is seems undefinable, it's everywhere anything has ever been experienced. It doesn't feel expansive or unlimited, although I can't say it has limits. It does feel somehow localized, here, 'where' I am. The labels I find for how it feels are pressure, intensity, tingling, weight, tension, constriction, a vague visual sense of form/outline, field of white noise, 'sensation potential', a sense of readiness to spring forth/manifest, about to/on the verge of ..., energetic, light, spinning, grounded, tethered/untethered, located, present, alive, online, wakeful, here, clouded, clear, dense, spacious, contracted, dull, diffuse. alert, gnawing, soothed, calm, ready, unready, gripped, gripping, suffocated, open, relaxed (not often), peaceful, tortured, bound, released, aversive, attracted

Is it instant or does it require time? (focus on direct experience)

It's instant, but this can be missed if attention flees into thinking.

Also notice how thoughts about self affect the body. What do you find?

They have a corresponding energy in the body. This goes largely unnoticed. Sometimes I've woken up to the tension that was being carried, and it's like 'holy shit!' I can hardly believe this was sitting there and I wasn't even noticing. This has happened shortly after getting into bed, when most distractions have abated. It's usually centered in the head, neck, jaw. Sometimes it's easier to relax, and sometimes a relaxation technique needs to be repeated over and over.

[Bluejay]

They have a corresponding energy in the body. This goes largely unnoticed. Sometimes I've woken up to the tension that was being carried, and it's like 'holy shit!' I can hardly believe this was sitting there and I wasn't even noticing. This has happened shortly after getting into bed, when most distractions have abated. It's usually centered in the head, neck, jaw. Sometimes it's easier to relax, and sometimes a relaxation technique needs to be repeated over and over.

And having done the inner gps pointer, is it necessary to listen to thoughts for the 'body' to navigate life?

Are thoughts in any way connected to life happening?

I did have thoughts of all this being resolved.

Nothing has to be resolved to see through the illusion of self. Absolutely nothing. This is simply about seeing that there is no inherent self doing things. Why would that change anything?

There's also no requirement for feeling a certain way. No need to feel clear, peaceful or anything else.

Also, this isn't about seeing it all the time. It's more about seeing it clearly when you look, and it then gradually begins to spread as you inquire into the conditioning that comes up.

Do you see that all this of what it should be is going into thinking?

So with that said: Can you say with 100% certainty you see there is no inherent self?

If not, what is left? :)

[davjak]

And having done the inner gps pointer, is it necessary to listen to thoughts for the 'body' to navigate life?

No, surely not.

Are thoughts in any way connected to life happening?

Today it occurred to me they are not alien. They are associated with the body/mind and its conditions and conditioning, but they are not determinative of anything of themselves, anymore than clouds impact the sky.

Nothing has to be resolved to see through the illusion of self. Absolutely nothing. This is simply about seeing that there is no inherent self doing things. Why would that change anything?

There's also no requirement for feeling a certain way. No need to feel clear, peaceful or anything else.

Also, this isn't about seeing it all the time. It's more about seeing it clearly when you look, and it then gradually begins to spread as you inquire into the conditioning that comes up.

I appreciate these comments they're very helpful.

Do you see that all this of what it should be is going into thinking?

Yes, that's obvious.

So with that said: Can you say with 100% certainty you see there is no inherent self?

It also struck me that it's odd for me to be waffling at this point in light of how I previously blathered with such assurance. I realize now, though, the reluctance I find has been the weight of aversion to repeating previous deception and delusion of a character find fools gold again.There was also a sense of not being ready for the question, like it's too soon, and I don't want to trip again. It all feels so new and still settling and sorting itself out. I realize there's no bottom or end to that, though. I see day by day change. Today there was not a single instance of noticing leaning in or thoughts of getting 'there'. They just didn't occur.

I see the reluctance was not a holding back for the possibility of there being a degree of agency that might be discovered somewhere. It was what I mention above and a feeling of doubt and disorientation. Tonight I can say with 100% certainty there is no inherent self.

[Bluejay]

Today it occurred to me they are not alien. They are associated with the body/mind and its conditions and conditioning, but they are not determinative of anything of themselves, anymore than clouds impact the sky.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with thoughts. In fact, all the patterns you have today are a means of taking care of you. Thoughts were a distraction to strong emotions when you weren't ready to handle them.

It also struck me that it's odd for me to be waffling at this point in light of how I previously blathered with such assurance. I realize now, though, the reluctance I find has been the weight of aversion to repeating previous deception and delusion of a character find fools gold again.There was also a sense of not being ready for the question, like it's too soon, and I don't want to trip again. It all feels so new and still settling and sorting itself out. I realize there's no bottom or end to that, though. I see day by day change. Today there was not a single instance of noticing leaning in or thoughts of getting 'there'. They just didn't occur.

I see the reluctance was not a holding back for the possibility of there being a degree of agency that might be discovered somewhere. It was what I mention above and a feeling of doubt and disorientation. Tonight I can say with 100% certainty there is no inherent self.

Can you control if you trip or don't trip again?

Do you control the path that the character David is on?

Also, what makes doubt thoughts special? Do they say anything about reality, or is it another way to get caught in the illusion that life can be controlled?

Where there is doubt, there is avoidance of feeling, so see if you can spot the feeling that is underneath the doubt. What is it?

Here's a video between two LU guides talking about this process. Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC3DzLY7glU