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[okjose]

It's all a thought. Inside/outside. Distance. Me. History. Future. Desire/aversion. Through thoughts a narrative is created and taken to be real.

Does this answer your question?

Yes! All of this dialogue is thought too right?
The thought "I don't exist" somehow equals freedom. After sitting with with "I am a thought" yesterday I've been feeling so light and breezy today. Because if I don't exist, the rest of life still does. I'm really struggling to articulate this but it feels great lets put it that way.
If I don't exist then my whole history doesn't exist. I was thinking "but surely it happened". It did! But the thoughts that create 'my history' isn't it and they didn't happen.. Theres been so many little insights into the implications of this.

It seems hard to talk about any of this because language is like an interface for thought. And is pure labels.

The video you linked was so spot on and felt like perfect timing thank you. I think everything she said rang true.

Theres a lot of looking happening on it's own with all the tools you've given and things seem to be unfolding naturally. The thought "Me" and "I" seem to have less weight but I still want to keep looking for any remnant of a "me" or "I" notion.

[okjose]

And can a 'me' be found there?

No it is simply thought.

What is the experience of attachment?

That too is a thought. Imagination of something (in this case image of the ‘face’) being stuck or merging to another thing (imagination of face) the illusion/imagination seemingly reinforced by the sensation there.

Where does the idea connect to the body (mental image)?

It seems one was seen as thought and one was seen as real but in fact they’re both a thought. Two thoughts. Sensation was being labelled face (thought). A thought (me entity image) was being merged to a thought (face). Sensation was being labelled face along with thought overlay image of a ‘face’.

And the body is a mental image. Is there a real "I" inside a mental image, or anything real?

No you’re right. ‘Body’ is a label (thought) and an image/thought. There’s nothing real inside a thought. It’s flat or lifeless (for lack of a better word).

So looking back it is all thought. I am a thought? Or thought is just saying that?
Yes and yes.

This should be awful news but it’s actually the best news ever!

It is difficult at first, but keep looking. It's similar to separating the "I" into the different senses.

As in the same way as looking for an “I” in the DE of seeing, hearing etc.. ?

Change Letters

Throughout the day, when a thought about "I" comes up, replace the letter (pick whatever letter you want).

"I want to have this" -> "O want to have this"

Can "O" want to have anything?

No.

How then could "I" want to have anything?

"I don't like that" -> "A don't like that"

Can "A" dislike anything?

No.

How come there is an idea that "I" can dislike anything?

Observe this throughout the day and let me know what you find :)

I haven’t done much of this yet but it makes sense. The “I” letter/label has so much thought attached to it. But it’s just a thought and a thought can’t ‘want’ or ‘have’ anything.

I plan to observe this through out today to see it more experientially.

[Bluejay]

As in the same way as looking for an “I” in the DE of seeing, hearing etc.. ?

You said you had trouble separating thought from sensation. So yes, you simply look for the connection between the two. Try to catch it happening in real time.

Yes! All of this dialogue is thought too right?
The thought "I don't exist" somehow equals freedom. After sitting with with "I am a thought" yesterday I've been feeling so light and breezy today. Because if I don't exist, the rest of life still does. I'm really struggling to articulate this but it feels great lets put it that way.
If I don't exist then my whole history doesn't exist. I was thinking "but surely it happened". It did! But the thoughts that create 'my history' isn't it and they didn't happen.. Theres been so many little insights into the implications of this.

If we want to use the term Life then Life has always existed and you are a part of life. It is only the separate self that says "No, I'm making important choices here choosing my ice cream flavors."

Yes on history. Something happened, but your story around it and what it means doesn't exist.

You might enjoy this meditation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYnKMggFxfE

Theres a lot of looking happening on it's own with all the tools you've given and things seem to be unfolding naturally. The thought "Me" and "I" seem to have less weight but I still want to keep looking for any remnant of a "me" or "I" notion.

A few questions:

What are you in control of?

What is the separate self controlling that is independent from life?

Are you avoiding something by wanting to look more? What would happen if we stop looking now?

You are already clear on a lot of the questions I'm asking, so I'm beginning to wonder if you're in the after territory, because all feeling of selfing doesn't go with this first self illusion.

So if you're clear on this, it may be more beneficial to start moving to what comes after this.

I haven’t done much of this yet but it makes sense. The “I” letter/label has so much thought attached to it. But it’s just a thought and a thought can’t ‘want’ or ‘have’ anything.

Yes, the "I" means nothing. It's a letter. Thought uses a letter to attach to a sensation, sound, image and says "I" am here. Might as well be "Ice Cream Man is here."

Where is Ice Cream Man?
-Oh I feel him behind my eyes.

And thus was a horror movie born.

[okjose]

You said you had trouble separating thought from sensation. So yes, you simply look for the connection between the two. Try to catch it happening in real time.

Thanks understood.

It is only the separate self that says "No, I'm making important choices here choosing my ice cream flavors."

And the separate self is a thought. Or thinking. Not that all thinking is the separate self, but the separate self is made out of thinking?

You might enjoy this meditation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYnKMggFxfE

This was great. It actually felt very easy to do but really helps clarify what thought/belief is. There was a bit of seeing the separate self and then a bit of tension and so I just relaxed into any tension and saw it for what it was. A thought and then a focus on sensation.
When he said:
"looking into your experience right now, do you even know if you were ever born. Without resorting to memory does it seem like you might have always been right here". That feels quite profound. It was very relaxing to hear.

What are you in control of?

Nothing. "You" ("I") is just in a thought. And that can't control anything.

What is the separate self controlling that is independent from life?

These suddenly feel like leading questions. The separate self is constructed out of thought so it can't really control anything. (That feels a bit bold to say, but it's true)

Are you avoiding something by wanting to look more? What would happen if we stop looking now?

Maybe but I don't know what. I've been stuck on these two questions for a while now. Originally I noticed I was almost trying to answer in a way that wouldn't get you to dig any deeper here. It then kicked up a bit of a thought storm and there was tension / frustration. I was able to look away from the screen and just observe it as thought and sensation and relax into he sensation.
It also revealed an expectation: The thought of a future self being totally clear about not having a self. (Which is quite laughable now that I've said it).

Then there was confusion as to who's looking? thought? And it's seen that is all just thought.
Looking is just happening, that seems clear and true to say. Like how things are seemingly chosen but there's not actually any chooser. There's a habit to attribute actions to a doer.

The second part of the question is easier to answer: I really don't know what would happen if we stopped looking.

You are already clear on a lot of the questions I'm asking, so I'm beginning to wonder if you're in the after territory, because all feeling of selfing doesn't go with this first self illusion.

So if you're clear on this, it may be more beneficial to start moving to what comes after this.

Yes I'm happy to do that whatever that is :)

Where is Ice Cream Man?
-Oh I feel him behind my eyes.

And thus was a horror movie born.

Yikes haha! I see how silly it is to say anything imagined is there at all!

[Bluejay]

These suddenly feel like leading questions. The separate self is constructed out of thought so it can't really control anything. (That feels a bit bold to say, but it's true)

They can feel a bit leading, but if someone doesn't see this, it's often quite obvious.

Maybe but I don't know what. I've been stuck on these two questions for a while now. Originally I noticed I was almost trying to answer in a way that wouldn't get you to dig any deeper here. It then kicked up a bit of a thought storm and there was tension / frustration. I was able to look away from the screen and just observe it as thought and sensation and relax into he sensation.

Excellent that you noticed this.

It also revealed an expectation: The thought of a future self being totally clear about not having a self. (Which is quite laughable now that I've said it).

And to discover more on that:

When you are totally clear about not having a self, what will happen?
And what will no longer be a problem?
What will be gone that is here now?

No separate self is very simple. It's seeing that there is no one in control. No thinker. No doer. No manager of life. No independent entity.

And like in the video on flip-flopping, this tends to deepen with time, so I recommend you keep exploring and looking.

The next step would be to start wrapping up, and we do that by asking a set of final questions to make sure nothing has been missed. Do you want to answer those next?

[okjose]

When you are totally clear about not having a self, what will happen?

"I" will never be clear on that :) Again this question was hard to answer and kicked up a load of thinking. But it highlighted that the expectation was still very active along with the "I" who was the central character in that thought. Like you said about thought dangling a carrot. Thought or "anyone" for that matter will never get "it" because "it's" not real.

So to try to say it more clearly: whatever is thought will never happen. Who knows what will happen.

And what will no longer be a problem?

Any perceived problems related to that are also thoughts.

What will be gone that is here now?

Nothing. All is just here now.


The questions above were really tough to answer at first. They had long answers that I just deleted because it was just thought upon thought and I remembered what you said about having a fresh look every time. But they helped to keep challenging the "I".
That's what I keep doing, just asking questions. Like "what see's the chopping board?". What comes up is "I do" then it's a matter of following any tension or resistance and asking "well what's "I"?" and then it's pure looking at what that "I" is made of. Then it's clear that "I" (a thought) can't see thought and so I actually don't exist. Jose / I / me doesn't exist (outside of thought). His hopes and dreams, his history... and it's freeing to hear. And it puts things in there rightful place so to speak (thoughts are thoughts). Then it's like what's just here and now is clean and unadulterated. Then more inspiring and joyful thoughts can arise.

No separate self is very simple. It's seeing that there is no one in control. No thinker. No doer. No manager of life. No independent entity.

And like in the video on flip-flopping, this tends to deepen with time, so I recommend you keep exploring and looking.

Yesterday it seemed simple and easy to see. Today it was like "I" was caught in thought. And so it seemed like more of a challenge to challenge the notion of a "me". But I persist. And I guess this is the flip-flopping.

The next step would be to start wrapping up, and we do that by asking a set of final questions to make sure nothing has been missed. Do you want to answer those next?

Yes please :)

[Bluejay]

So to try to say it more clearly: whatever is thought will never happen. Who knows what will happen.

Exactly. It's like the labeling exercise. Thought can label, but life will do its thing. Even thought is a part of the soup, so even separating it like that is unnecessary at some point.

That's what I keep doing, just asking questions. Like "what see's the chopping board?". What comes up is "I do" then it's a matter of following any tension or resistance and asking "well what's "I"?" and then it's pure looking at what that "I" is made of. Then it's clear that "I" (a thought) can't see thought and so I actually don't exist. Jose / I / me doesn't exist (outside of thought). His hopes and dreams, his history... and it's freeing to hear. And it puts things in there rightful place so to speak (thoughts are thoughts). Then it's like what's just here and now is clean and unadulterated. Then more inspiring and joyful thoughts can arise.

Yes. And do you notice that even this process of looking deeper is simply arising without a doer?

Yesterday it seemed simple and easy to see. Today it was like "I" was caught in thought. And so it seemed like more of a challenge to challenge the notion of a "me". But I persist. And I guess this is the flip-flopping.

The key is, and you see this already: Who or what is getting caught? Is someone controlling the flip-flopping? It's like the wind blowing, the trees go back and forth.

Final questions coming in next post...

[Bluejay]

Here you go. As always, answer from your own experience, take your time, and enjoy :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[okjose]

Yes. And do you notice that even this process of looking deeper is simply arising without a doer?

Damn that feels like another hard pill to swallow. This of course must be true but It's almost made me drowsy or tired. There was also a small bit of fear like a fear of letting go of the reins will cause havoc or death. Like it's dangerous. That feeling is gone now though. And was ultimately just a thought.

I feel like I need to spell it out like I'm a toddler:

So there's no person here. Jose, I, Me all exist as thought only. And thoughts can't control anything or do anything.
So if I'm not real then I can't do anything. If I don't exist then things just happen. The driving force behind those things is a mystery and that's fine. So i've never done anything because I don't exist.

This actually all feels quite good to say. Like it feels true. The typing happening right now is just happening and the "I" thought (image of Jose) is only a thought soo ... this typing is not being done by anyone or anything. It's happing like the grass grows and the wind blows and the baby cries.

Maybe this just needs to sink in a bit like how the stone cold fact that "I am a thought" sunk in (or has it? it feels weird to say "I am a thought" now).

When we speak it is just thought speaking to thought? Or just a thought at your end that triggers a thought at my end? (maybe non of that matters)

Sorry Henri I hope this isn't too jarring, that was a bit of an experiment. Just thought it might help to spell it all out. And maybe you'll be able to see where I'm not looking, if that makes sense.


It seems to boil down to saying "I am a thought", "I can't control anything" and feeling into that. Those two feel a bit uncomfortable. There's a stirring or tension in the solar plexus. Firstly slight fear that quickly fades and then just sensation. All very subtle though.

[Bluejay]

Yes. Good exploring.

Things just happen. This process happens. Sinking in happens.

I don't have any comments. Trust that this process will unfold as it needs to :)

[okjose]

Ok thanks yes :) understood.

I'm going to take a breather and relax and plan to respond to the questions later today.

[Bluejay]

Feel free to take your time :)

[okjose]

Thanks, well I'll say tomorrow then but I'll keep you posted if I need more time. Thank you :)

[okjose]

Hi Henri, if it's ok I'll take another day to respond to these?

[Bluejay]

Hi Henri, if it's ok I'll take another day to respond to these?

Absolutely!