Requesting a guide.

[IainB]

Hi V,

Look at expectations with this too: Do you mean that you don't see it 24/7 as a constant state, or you cannot see it when you look?

It would be unrealistic and perhaps impossible to see/know no self as a constant state. Leave that to the spiritual dreamers.

It is enough to look in the moment fortunately. In looking in each moment sensation (and colour, sound...) is known.

And thought content may be known, including thoughts describing or narrating Ian, or there may be a brief break from knowing thought content.

So looking/seeing can happen, and no entity/me/self/I/Ian is known once more (but always only ever now).

Can [you] it every time, reliably, when I look? - that's all that matters.

Yes, it's nice and fresh. Looking a-new each time. There is a body, sensation, colour, sound, life. And there may be thoughts about Ian.

There may be thoughts that directly state "I" (or compare a visualised 'character' Ian with the body symbolising the character of 'others')...these really grab the attention so it can be seen where the 'confusion' arises.

But when it's clear these are the realm of thought...then the contract with sensation, colour, alive-life is clear.

Thanks, Ian

[Vivien]

There may be thoughts that directly state "I" (or compare a visualised 'character' Ian with the body symbolising the character of 'others')...these really grab the attention so it can be seen where the 'confusion' arises.

Let's look into this more....

Is there a person inside the body that thoughts of Ian are about?

Is there a looker inside the body?
Is there a thinker inside the head?
Is there a feeler inside the body?
Is there a sufferer or the enjoyer of a happy state inside the body?

Is there anything or anyone inside the body at all?

[IainB]

Is there a person inside the body that thoughts of Ian are about?

This was an interesting enquiry. I looked for some time then realised that I was in fact searching an imaginary thought map of my body.

So instead I looked at the sensations that show up corresponding with each part of the body.

The DE of 'inside the body' is sensation + thought content about a body, for example an imagined hollow internal body or body parts.

Is there a looker inside the body?

Sensation is known. I can't get closer than that. There is knowing about a body but no looker.

Is there a thinker inside the head?

Well of course inside the head and inside the body are unknowns. There may be a thought image symbolising a thinking entity inside the head, but this is a concept believed in.

There is sensation alone. There is a thought linking that sensation to 'head'. There is awareness all this is known. Thinker inside the head is a further story.

Is there a feeler inside the body?

Sensation is clear. These ideas of thinkers and feelers inside are popular folk ideas, ingrained cultural beliefs.

When you look though it is very different. Non-localised sensation is known. Thought is required to even begin seperating and differentiating between 'different' sensations, labels of good and bad and so forth.

Is there a sufferer or the enjoyer of a happy state inside the body?

I don't know what can answer this. Thought would come up with suggestions that are simply wrong.

There are experiences labelled suffereing or enjoyment.

Thanks,

[Vivien]

I looked for some time then realised that I was in fact searching an imaginary thought map of my body.

So instead I looked at the sensations that show up corresponding with each part of the body.

The DE of 'inside the body' is sensation + thought content about a body, for example an imagined hollow internal body or body parts.

Well yes, this is very common. Most of the time there is a mental image of a body, but often it is unconscious that we are actually looking at that mentally created fake replica, instead of FEELING into the sensations that are present right here, right now.

There is awareness all this is known. Thinker inside the head is a further story.

Is the thinker inside the head is simply just a story? Or, is it also a sensation mistaken for the location of a thinker?

Let's test this out.

close your eyes, and just notice thoughts and mental images coming and going.
When you can steadily notice them, then look for the physical location where those images and thoughts are known FROM.
Just notice, as soon as you try to do that, a mental image of the head might appear, and you are looking at the content of the image again, instead of FEELING into the sensations that are actually present.

so when you look for the thinker, you are actually FEELING into the head, to see if there SEEMS to be a location of 'me thinking'.

You can go a step ahead, and do the same with localizing the sensation or the FELT area of the head, from where 'I am aware" of the thoughts and images.

let me know how it goes.

[IainB]

This is a wonderful enquiry into sensation and location.

Thank you for these points.

Can I respond properly in some hours.

With love,

[IainB]

Is the thinker inside the head is simply just a story? Or, is it also a sensation mistaken for the location of a thinker?

Really some of these pointers I could spend some weeks on. Sometimes a day or two or three does not feel enough.

Before, thought seemed so distinct from sensation. So it is great to look at sensation similarly to before.

When thinking happens there is a move away from sensation. When the thought passes, it is possible to feel into sensation again fully.

look for the physical location where those images and thoughts are known FROM [...] FEELING into the sensations that are actually present [...] see if there SEEMS to be a location of 'me thinking'.

I do feel deeply the sensation that might be said to fill the head or skull, if I went that far to refer to thoughts about that sensation. You could say the sensation fills the space where thoughts also appear.

go a step ahead, and do the same with localizing the sensation or the FELT area of the head, from where 'I am aware" of the thoughts and images.

Feels the same, the alive sensation behnd the eyes.

Thank you for your guiding. Much love,

[IainB]

go a step ahead, and do the same with localizing the sensation or the FELT area of the head, from where 'I am aware" of the thoughts and images.

Feels the same, the alive sensation behnd the eyes.

I do really really look you know. Perhaps not as often as I could (no choice). But when the motivation and remembering happens. I feel deeply into the sensation and shake a little, and then when I open my eyes colours are briefly brighter. The sensation I feel corresponds with I am aware.

Again, thanks

[Vivien]

I do feel deeply the sensation that might be said to fill the head or skull, if I went that far to refer to thoughts about that sensation. You could say the sensation fills the space where thoughts also appear.

HOw do you know that thoughts appear in the head? Is this really the experience?
or rather this is just something you've learned?

Look at this:

Is that sensation in the head thinking thoughts?
Is that sensation a thinker?
Can that sensation actually think?

Feels the same, the alive sensation behnd the eyes.

That sensation is alive, are you sure?
Is a thought alive?
Is a sound alive?
Is a taste alive?
Is a smell alive?
Is a sensation alive?

Notice, if you use the word 'alive' interchangably with being aware.

The sensation I feel corresponds with I am aware.

is that sensation an entity that is aware?

Is that sensation aware? or rather even that sensation is being 'awared'?

Sometimes a day or two or three does not feel enough.

You can spend more time with each post if that helps. Just make sure that you really spend time each day looking at them. YOu don't have to rush, just be thorough.

[IainB]

How do you know that thoughts appear in the head? Is this really the experience?
or rather this is just something you've learned?

Of course that thoughts appear in the head is something only learned.

I said above Sensation is clear. These ideas of thinkers and feelers inside are popular folk ideas, ingrained cultural beliefs.

Thought content is known. Sensation is known. thoughts appear in the head is a thought about thoughts.

If you were to ask a child where thoughts appear, they may answer, in the head.
If you were to ask an adult, they may answer thoughts are a function of the brain

Both are ideas they have learned and are repeated as thoughts about thoughts.

Is that sensation in the head thinking thoughts?

On 14th October you wrote 'the illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’ or the location of the ‘me’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating the seeming ‘sense of self’

I know sensation. You guided me to identify it as being linked to the location of thoughts, and even 'I am aware'. I did what you asked, with openess, and quite enjoyed it. In particular two nights ago, as slowly drifting into sleep, I spent a long period in sensation, and although I'm not sure it was sensation in the head, you could call it that. I thought I might be somehow bypassing the relevence of sensation and was quite happy to look into it more. I can't recall a time when I thought there was a sensation thinking thoughts. If anything all I know was that sensation and thought were distinct.

So, no.

I may do the same tonight, feeling that sensation, as it was nice (the sensation wasn't 'nice', that would be a thought about sensation).

Is that sensation a thinker?

I doubt it. Sensation and thought are so distinct. Like chalk and cheese. Chalk doesn't produce cheese. Cheese doesn't produce chalk.

Can that sensation actually think?

Maybe in a fantasy story, it may be written there is a sensation that thinks. Not at this location though.

That sensation is alive, are you sure?

Sensation has no life separate from the knowing of it. I said alive sensation to describe the vivid knowing of sensation. It's not a parasite moving in my head.

Is a thought alive?

A thought has no life separate from the knowing of it. It's not a parasite moving in my head.

Is a sound alive?

Sound has no life separate from the knowing of it. It's not an entity either out there or passing through.

Is a taste alive?

Taste is known. I decided to start calling taste sensation now. I almost believed that taste is a sensation known in the mouth, but of course 'in the mouth' is a thought.

Is a smell alive?

Smell is known. I decided to start calling smell sensation now. Taste and smell are so similar to sensation, don't you think? Thought content, sound and colour seem more distinct. Again, 'in the nose' is a thought.

I don't think smells are alive, that would be silly.

Is a sensation alive?

Not alive, but known.

Notice, if you use the word 'alive' interchangably with being aware.

I see alive as synonymous with both aware and knowing. All three point to experiencing.

go a step ahead, and do the same with localizing the sensation or the FELT area of the head, from where 'I am aware" of the thoughts and images.

Feels the same, the alive sensation behind the eyes.

is that sensation an entity that is aware?

Not aware, but a sensation, felt and known. It would be somewhat scary and schizophrenic to suddenly have yet another aware entity here. One's enough. Even the first one is only imagined, never mind two.

Is that sensation aware? or rather even that sensation is being 'awared'?

It's known. I never thought it was aware. I admit it. Calling it alive got me what I deserved with your questions here.

With love,

[Vivien]

I know sensation. You guided me to identify it as being linked to the location of thoughts, and even 'I am aware'. I did what you asked, with openess, and quite enjoyed it. In particular two nights ago, as slowly drifting into sleep, I spent a long period in sensation, and although I'm not sure it was sensation in the head, you could call it that. I thought I might be somehow bypassing the relevence of sensation and was quite happy to look into it more. I can't recall a time when I thought there was a sensation thinking thoughts. If anything all I know was that sensation and thought were distinct.

Well, this is good, but it would be good if you could look at this more, again and again.

What I would say that is qualify for being able to see that there is no separate self is that it can be seen again and again, repeatedly and more importantly, reliably, every single time when looking.

And one way to see it is to see what are the phenomena that is appearing in each moment that is mistaken for a self.

Sensation has no life separate from the knowing of it. I said alive sensation to describe the vivid knowing of sensation. It's not a parasite moving in my head.

great :)))

A thought has no life separate from the knowing of it. It's not a parasite moving in my head.

good again :) no parasite. But are you 100% sure about this?

And also, language says 'my head'.... but let's look into this:

What is it that HAS a head?
Where is the owner?

Is there someone / something standing apart from the experience of the head owning/having it?

Is there someone / something standing apart from the head or the body FEELING or EXPERIENCING it?

In short, is there an experiencER?

Smell is known. I decided to start calling smell sensation now. Taste and smell are so similar to sensation, don't you think?

For me they are very distinct from sensation and from each other as well.

I really pleasant smells... and that is very distinct from sensations.
But... when paying attention to smelling, attention often goes to the nose or to the nostrils where there are lots of sensations present.
so with smelling, there is the smell + sensations (of the nose)... and that gives the impression of location... it's not just thought is providing location. But the sensation as well. Can you see this?

This is the same as with thinking.
There are thoughts present + sensations of the head.
Those sensations are giving the impression of the head being the location for thinking.
its not just purely thought. Can you see this?

Since there is an automatic and often unconscious mapping of sensation to a visual image of the body.
So whenever there is a sensation present, it's automatically put to the mental map of the body, therefore having a location.
Can you catch this mapping happening?

[IainB]

You can spend more time with each post if that helps. Just make sure that you really spend time each day looking at them. You don't have to rush, just be thorough.

Thank you,

[IainB]

to qualify for being able to see that there is no separate self is that it can be seen again and again, repeatedly and more importantly, reliably, every single time when looking.

I like this. Isn't life bizarre. Here I am, all alive, and believing there is a separate discrete character here in addition to life, believed in again and again when thoughts about that character appear and made up from all the components 'about' that character that might be known. And engaging with you on a forum all about the non-existence of that character. How strange and also fun.

thought has no life separate from the knowing of it. It's not a parasite moving in my head.

good again :) no parasite. But are you 100% sure about this?

Sadly not quite. I was oscillating in the last few days. Sometimes it was clear: 'thoughts are lifeless and passing, and it's really important to really know this to gate'. I noticed at other times I was 'entranced' by a thought image or deeply believed in a sequence of thoughts about my life. It felt briefly as though these thoughts were an alive reality, almost an alive show within the show. Sorry, but I wanted to be honest about that. I have several addictions, one persisiting is an belief in thought at times.

What is it that HAS a head?

I like this point and the one below. I like how it stumped me. It would be easy to answer 'nothing...there is simply sensation and thoughts about head' but of course if I could really see that the illusion would be seen through. What am I? When I/me is looked towards it's hard to find and pin down.

Where is the owner?

Again, I can see the thought story open up as thought tries to offer an explanation. It's not a very good one. Again, a separate owner cannot be found.

Is there someone / something standing apart from the experience of the head owning/having it?

This is quite frustrating. At one point there felt like there was a silent alive-viewer really looking at the place of sensations where thought says thoughts come from. That's not a someone though is it. I feel my responses here are not that good, that I'm not getting it. Perhaps I don't want to get it? Who knows.

Is there someone / something standing apart from the head or the body FEELING or EXPERIENCING it?

I'm waiting for some face slap Ahah moment, but that's probably not going to come is it. I actually quite like my life you know. I'm very lucky in some ways. I can be very witty. I'm reasonably inteliigent. I can get intense enjoyment from some types of music, theatre and comedy. I bought flights this week to visit friends in India then go to the Phlippines for karaoke. I do feel fear, frustration and neurosis. Perhaps I just need to get on with life, and give up seeking within LU...still thinking there's something here to be got. I can't even imagine seeing no self, never mind seeing it. I seek for shift or change I cannot imagine, how funny/tragic.

In short, is there an experiencER?

I don't know. I give up.

it's not just thought is providing location. But the sensation as well. Can you see this?

Yes I can (for smells). This is very interesting, and exciting how this process both contributes towards creating the illusion, and can be explored to see through the illusion.

I was having doubts about taste being separate from sensation though...but then I realised that there are so many wierd and wonderful tastes distinct from the standard sensations thought labels as good/neautral/bad. Thank you for this.

Those sensations are giving the impression of the head being the location for thinking.
its not just purely thought. Can you see this?

Again yes, I can see this. And how this creates a foundation, a fertile bed from which the belief that there is an I/me doing that thinking in the head springs up and is sustained. Like so many of your points in posts, if this can be looked at really clearly again and again how could gating not take place? Well, expectations (like expecting I/me to vanish), doubts and fear, and just a stubborn reluctance to give up on the illusion is the answer of course, but that does not detract from how interesting and exciting this is. You are a top guide.

So whenever there is a sensation present, it's automatically put to the mental map of the body, therefore having a location.
Can you catch this mapping happening?

I spent the least time on this. I would like to spend more time on this and will look at it tomorrow unless you guide otherwise.

With love,

[Vivien]

Yes, please look at the last pointer and let me know what you find.

but we have to really look into your expectations. Note: this will be just a general conversation between friends :)

Well, expectations (like expecting I/me to vanish)

The I should vanish? This is what you believe that seeing no self means?

Really look into this since there is clearly a big expectation here, but you might not be fully clear about it.

HOW should the I vanish? By not having thoughts of I?
Or not having the appearance of a center in the head?
Or all problems of Ian going away?

Ian dying? disappearing? How? The body dying? Or the sensations of Ian disappearing? Or thoughts of Ian disappearing? Or all the conditioned emotions that makes up Ian vanishing? Or not feeling to be a human anymore? Or how exactly should the I vanish?

Look around the room.... can the huge dinosaur vanish from the room? No? why not? It's not there? Never been there?

How could something vanish which has never been?

[IainB]

So whenever there is a sensation present, it's automatically put to the mental map of the body, therefore having a location.
Can you catch this mapping happening?

It is as though I am adrift in a sea of sensation.
Then a thought image appears of an imagined part of the body.
Then sensation + thought image appears.

expectations (like expecting I/me to vanish)
The I should vanish? This is what you believe that seeing no self means?

I put expecting to vanish as an example of the most common expectation. The other being the achievement of a state of perpetual happiness. I believe expectation linked with doubt and fear are the reasons I have not seen in a conclusive and definitive way that allows confidence and what is seen cannot be unseen.

To paraphtase you every single time when looking, it can be seen again and again, reliably and repeatedly. That's my goal / expectation.

You are clear this cannot be known in advance. Any thought or sequence of thoughts about this are simply that, a symbolic imagining by the mind of what it may be like for the imagined character to be seen as an illusion.

HOW should the I vanish? By not having thoughts of I?

It's not so much the thoughts about I/me but the belief that when those thoughts appear at that time there is a seperate character. An instinctive belief/enchantment that there are thoughts about a seperate character being had by I/me.

So a re-evaluation of thought takes place. I always remember Unmani's analogy that the king (thought) is removed from his thrown, and the life of the kingdom simply flows and thought king is no longer seen as the truth, or a guiding force.

Or not having the appearance of a center in the head?

I only discovered this recently through your guiding to look at sensation and thoughts about the location of sensation. I can't imagine an absense of sensation in this way. There would be very little left.

The sensation in the head, plus thought image of outline of head, is a basic core foundation. I can't imagine what it would be for that to be absent.

Or all problems of Ian going away?

This links to the other most common expectation, that there will be a state of perpetual happiness or bliss.

I do believe some problems will reduce, or may persist for a shorter duration.

When it is known that there is no being here with any agency regarding the psychodrama that appears, surely there is more relaxation, and less fixation on resolving or achieving based upon experience as it is known? What happens happens. What Is, Is. But doesn't need to be fixed or squirmed away from.

Of course the problems of pain, the unique psychological patterning here that gives rise to reccurent thoughts and responses. the seperation that characterises life...won't these stay as these are what life seemingly is?

Ian dying? disappearing? How? The body dying? Or the sensations of Ian disappearing?

I don't know about these things. They don't resonate with me. I am alive, a body is here, sensation is clear. Why would these things not be present? I am going to die, and part of that fills me with horror, and part with excitement. I'm not sure how this links to knowing no self.

Or thoughts of Ian disappearing?. Or all the conditioned emotions that makes up Ian vanishing?

If thoughts of Ian disappeared completely it would make interacting with others difficult. Some might say I'm already there though. Sometimes a friend will tell me how they imagine their life could be better, what is missing now and who or what is required to fix this. Of course I collude to some extent, as this is core basic human behaviour and how we have interacted since time began. Of course, I don't believe any of the story. Sometimes I will even respond with a similar story of my own as such comparing and colluding seems a foundation in empathising and building trust with others. It's quite a sweet part of life (all made up though). I don't quite trust non dual types who respond with "but what I" or "but there's only now" or "could it be any different" as I suspect they may be bypassing. They can be a bore.

I also hope to do stand up comedy in the future and my life, its events, and my ways of responding and making sense of these are really good material. These are known as a series of thoughts, and can be communicated using words that may correspond to the thoughts so I don't want all that to disappear.

Or not feeling to be a human anymore?

I quite like being human, or feeling that human-ness. Please can I keep that?

Joking aside, I do know what you mean. There might be an expectation of a shift in the core basic sensations and the symbols that link to those sensations. Like waking up in another country, in another season, surrounded by everything new. Day dreams like this are a turn off for me.

Or how exactly should the I vanish?

Santa never vanished when it was known he was imagined. Instead there was an Ahah moment, when it was known vividly that Santa was alive only in a series of thought images and interactions that made reference to those ideas.

There was surprise and embarassment. It was known definitively and conclusively that a character who had been held high and fetishised over, was now consigned to ideas only. He would never be glimpsed or found after all. The evidence for his existence would continue (lots of images of Santa on cards and in shop windows, lots of references to the merits of Santa being heard and shared by me also, a linking of sensations of excitement with thoughts of Santa may be experienced but with the belief extinguished and neutered, not further substantiated. The Santa-Sweetener at the core of culture, that everything was going to be exciting and okay because a character called Santa would successfully deliver his supernatural goal, did vanish. But that was seen to be entirely conjecture. All of life remained.

can the huge dinosaur vanish from the room? No? why not? It's not there? Never been there?

But I am not a huge dinosaure, or indeed Santa. Ian is more nuanced than that. I have had several million thoughts about Ian, and either believeed them or accepted those thoughts as having a relevence in referring to Ian. I have had countless moments of both intimate pain and enjoyment and grasped each as somehow linked to who I am. I have had thoughts about others, and voiced them, and listened and obsessed about what has been said by others about Ian in turn, taking this to be true and important.

How could something vanish which has never been?

Ok.

Thanks,

[Vivien]

Thank you for your replies. I asked those questions about expectations, since they can be really in a way. And it's quite unlikely to have no expectations... since then why would we do this inquiry first of all, if not for the imagined/expected outcomes. This all normal, we just need to be aware of their presence.

But I am not a huge dinosaure, or indeed Santa. Ian is more nuanced than that. I have had several million thoughts about Ian, and either believeed them or accepted those thoughts as having a relevence in referring to Ian. I have had countless moments of both intimate pain and enjoyment and grasped each as somehow linked to who I am. I have had thoughts about others, and voiced them, and listened and obsessed about what has been said by others about Ian in turn, taking this to be true and important.

What is this I here, right now that you are repeatedly referring to in the above quote?

You are talking as if there were an I outside of thoughts.
As if the I weren't just the thought 'I' itself. Right?
But is that so? Really?
Prove it. Find it. Describe this I as precisely as you can without any mental conjure... leaving all ideas of an I aside, and just describing it as simply as possible as it is showing up here, now.

Is the I something more or something else in experience than the word/thought 'I' itself?

what is seen cannot be unseen.

Yes, but this statement is so often misunderstood. Just because it cannot be unseen, it doesn't mean that temporarily it's never believed to be real again. Cannot be unseen means that it can be seen reliable every time with looking, without fail, but between moments of looking, especially when an emotion is triggered, it can temporarily fully believed again.

Cannot be unseen doesn't mean never believing it again (temporarily). Rather, seeing cannot be lost when looking happens. There is an emphasis on 'when looking happens'.... when looking doesn't happen, it might be believed again.

This 'temporarily believing again' is often overlooked by many seekers. Believing that seeing no self is never ever taking it for real ever again. Which is very unlikely due to all the emotional baggage that is being conditioned into the body-mind. For that to happen, those trigerable emotional knots need to be investigated and undone.

I believe expectation linked with doubt and fear are the reasons I have not seen in a conclusive and definitive way

Can you look into this fear?
What is being feared exactly?
What is the worst thing that could happen if it's seen that there is no one at the core governing life?

V