Let's do this

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ashton
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Re: Let's do this

Postby ashton » Tue Jun 23, 2026 4:11 pm

When a box becomes self-aware—what is that awareness?
Is it a “self” becoming aware of a box?
Or is it just a box noticing another box?
It's just another event.
Box/event happens. Whether it becomes self-aware or not are just 2 nodes on the game tree. Two possibilities. But in either case, both are just another event.
Is there ever a break in the chain where something other than a box appears?
Can you find anything right now that is not box-born?
No, they are just all new nodes.


What happens though when life is just going on and none of it is seen as nodes/boxes? When it's paid attention to, life feels like nodes and is seen as nodes. But when it's not being paid attention to, well, it isn't seen as nodes, and life sure as hell doesn't feel that way either. Is that normal? Or does that change?

Ash

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vinceschubert
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Re: Let's do this

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Jun 24, 2026 1:56 am

Hi Ash, good to have contact again.
When a box becomes self-aware—what is that awareness?
Is it a “self” becoming aware of a box?
Or is it just a box noticing another box?
It's just another event.
Box/event happens. Whether it becomes self-aware or not are just 2 nodes on the game tree. Two possibilities. But in either case, both are just another event.
Is there ever a break in the chain where something other than a box appears?
Can you find anything right now that is not box-born?
No, they are just all new nodes.


What happens though when life is just going on and none of it is seen as nodes/boxes? When it's paid attention to, life feels like nodes and is seen as nodes. But when it's not being paid attention to, well, it isn't seen as nodes, and life sure as hell doesn't feel that way either. Is that normal? Or does that change?
Completely normal.

In fact, I'd be more suspicious if you said every moment was experienced as boxes.

The "box" perspective is itself another box.

Sometimes the "boxing" box appears. Sometimes it doesn't.

Sometimes there's simply conversation, work, laughter, music, frustration, immersion. No parsing. No meta-cognition.

Then later, the meta box appears and recognizes, "Ah, that was just happening."

Neither state is more correct.

The mistake would be thinking you need to maintain the "seeing boxes" mode. That just creates another identity: the one who is successfully observing.

The deeper recognition isn't:

> "Everything should always look like nodes."

It's:

> "Whether nodes are recognized or not is itself just another node."

Notice how complete that is.

* Immersion? Box.
* Meta-awareness? Box.
* Forgetting? Box.
* Remembering? Box.
* Wondering whether this changes? Box.

Nothing has gone wrong when life is simply being lived.

In fact, ask yourself this:

Does the recognition need to be present continuously... or is the thought that it should be present continuously just another box?

That question tends to dissolve the last bit of striving.


vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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ashton
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Re: Let's do this

Postby ashton » Wed Jun 24, 2026 5:42 pm

Does the recognition need to be present continuously... or is the thought that it should be present continuously just another box?

That question tends to dissolve the last bit of striving.
It's like I can't calm myself down, Vince. Currently this is one of those moments where I can't see it. And it's like, that should be completely acceptable. But yet it doesn't feel that way. You know? It's like I can't come to terms with not seeing it right now. Even though that's all there is. It's like I can't relax into it. But like, I know I should. Which is such a shitty word to use because can't is all there is, so there really is no should. Ffs.

But I know what you mean.

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Re: Let's do this

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Jun 25, 2026 6:28 am

t's like I can't calm myself down, Vince. Currently this is one of those moments where I can't see it. And it's like, that should be completely acceptable. But yet it doesn't feel that way. You know? It's like I can't come to terms with not seeing it right now. Even though that's all there is. It's like I can't relax into it. But like, I know I should. Which is such a shitty word to use because can't is all there is, so there really is no should. Ffs.
This is exactly the place where people get stuck.

Listen carefully.

You say:

> "I can't relax into it."

Good.

What can't relax?

Don't answer philosophically.

Right now, there is:

* tension,
* thoughts saying, "I should be able to see this,"
* frustration,
* wanting it to be different.

That is the current box.

Notice what immediately happens.

The mind says:

> "I need to get out of this box and back into seeing."

No.

That is just another box.

You don't need to relax.
You don't need to see.
You don't need to get back.

The resistance itself is the thing being presented.

Can you allow even the inability to allow?

Can you accept even the inability to accept?

Because if you can, then you've stopped fighting reality.

The irony is that you're still subtly believing there is a "correct" box to be in.

There isn't.

There is only this one.

Even if this one is confusion.
Even if this one is contraction.
Even if this one is "I can't see it."

That, too, is just another box presenting itself.

Nothing has gone wrong. In fact, this may be the deepest thing you've seen all day.

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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ashton
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Re: Let's do this

Postby ashton » Thu Jun 25, 2026 2:46 pm

You say:

> "I can't relax into it."

Good.

What can't relax?
Attention keeps on focusing on the thought of wanting what's currently happening to be recognized differently. Like it is zeroing in on that one frame of experience and not willing to let go. It's more or less like the thought isn't fueling attention but the attention keeps trying to project it to happen. To find something out of nothing.

That's what can't rest. The attention trying to specifically look for anything it can within that framework. It's relentless.

It's not being bombarded with thoughts. It's about attention just keeps holding onto a narrow focus, no matter whether there's anything inside or not. Like a camera man impatiently waiting irregardless of if there is a zebra in frame or not. Just shaking over it incessantly.
The mind says:

> "I need to get out of this box and back into seeing."

No.

That is just another box.

You don't need to relax.
You don't need to see.
You don't need to get back.

The resistance itself is the thing being presented.
Huh. The best thing I can point this out in is like, let's say you want to do something but you are afraid or nervous or fearful of the outcome. It really highlights the resistance. You really want to do X but you're scared of Y. But the resistance, Z is like the dilemma.

You see the resistance. Sometimes you end up going through even with the scared still present and the resistance still present. Other times you don't.

Seeing the resistance just doesn't really seem to have any effect at all on what ends up happening. If it did, you'd always do 1 of the options. But instead that doesn't happen. The choice that gets made happens without regard to resistance. Resistance I guess isn't the motivator then. It's just a character playing a supporting role

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Re: Let's do this

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Jun 25, 2026 11:31 pm

Attention keeps on focusing on the thought of wanting what's currently happening to be recognized differently. Like it is zeroing in on that one frame of experience and not willing to let go. It's more or less like the thought isn't fueling attention but the attention keeps trying to project it to happen. To find something out of nothing.

That's what can't rest. The attention trying to specifically look for anything it can within that framework. It's relentless.

It's not being bombarded with thoughts. It's about attention just keeps holding onto a narrow focus, no matter whether there's anything inside or not. Like a camera man impatiently waiting irregardless of if there is a zebra in frame or not. Just shaking over it incessantly.
That's a much clearer description.

Notice something subtle.

You said:

> "Attention keeps trying..."

Does it?

Or is there simply attention narrowly focused, followed by a thought describing it as "trying"?

Your cameraman analogy is good.

The cameraman doesn't have to be relaxed. He doesn't have to find the zebra. He can stand there all day pointing the camera at an empty field.

The pointing is just what's happening.

The suffering doesn't come from the narrow attention.

It comes from the next thought:

> "This shouldn't still be happening."

or

> "If only attention would let go..."

What if it never lets go?

Really.

What if this exact pattern remained for the next ten years?

Could that, too, simply be another box?

Because the thing you're waiting for is not relaxed attention.

You're waiting for attention to stop being attention.

Why?

Who decided that attention has to widen?

Maybe this is exactly how this organism investigates. Maybe relentless focus is simply one of its patterns.

Don't try to relax the camera.

Just notice that even the camera never belonged to anyone.
Huh. The best thing I can point this out in is like, let's say you want to do something but you are afraid or nervous or fearful of the outcome. It really highlights the resistance. You really want to do X but you're scared of Y. But the resistance, Z is like the dilemma.

You see the resistance. Sometimes you end up going through even with the scared still present and the resistance still present. Other times you don't.

Seeing the resistance just doesn't really seem to have any effect at all on what ends up happening. If it did, you'd always do 1 of the options. But instead that doesn't happen. The choice that gets made happens without regard to resistance. Resistance I guess isn't the motivator then. It's just a character playing a supporting role
Exactly.

That's a significant observation.

You've noticed that resistance is information, not causation.

The story says:

> "If I could get rid of the fear, then I'd act."

But experience says otherwise.

Sometimes:

* Fear.
* Resistance.
* Action.

Other times:

* Fear.
* Resistance.
* No action.

The resistance doesn't determine the outcome.

Nor does recognizing the resistance.

Recognition is another event.
Resistance is another event.
Action is another event.

Sometimes they correlate. Sometimes they don't.

That's why you've started seeing life more like a river than a decision tree controlled by someone.

One tiny thing I'd invite you to look at, though:

You called resistance a "supporting role."

Does it even have a role?

Or is that still giving it more importance than it deserves?

Perhaps resistance is just another appearance—no different, fundamentally, from a sound, an itch, or a passing thought.

It doesn't need to justify itself.

It simply appears... and whatever happens next, happens next.
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

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ashton
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Re: Let's do this

Postby ashton » Fri Jun 26, 2026 3:13 pm

You said:

> "Attention keeps trying..."

Does it?

Or is there simply attention narrowly focused, followed by a thought describing it as "trying"?
You're right. Like, whenever attention is acting counter to how you want, at some point there's a thought of like "Why?!" Or "If only!" Or "could it stop" or "can it loosen up". Something like that. Sometimes it changes, sometimes not.

OR

a fragment of the time, sometimes it'll get noticed, maybe like a sigh follows and then you try to turn away from looking at its traits... which more accurately, the attention tries not to notice what it is already doing. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

Either outcome from either of the above paragraphs doesn't change the fact that it is annoying behavior. An annoyance of life. Probably completely normal. Probably to somehow be accepted. I digress.

Perhaps resistance is just another appearance—no different, fundamentally, from a sound, an itch, or a passing thought.
👍

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ashton
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Re: Let's do this

Postby ashton » Sat Jun 27, 2026 6:43 pm

Post #2 cause I think it's an important update:

Now, some of the time, things get noticed in such a way that it's like there's just infinite possibilities.

Like, it might be
- uneasy physical sensations
- thought of ugh and wanting it to go away
- heart racing
- fluster
That might all get noticed in "1 frame" so to speak even though obviously that's more like 4.

But now the difference is, is sometimes the next frames may stay exactly like that. Sometimes 1 thing changes and the rest stays. Sometimes a couple things change and the rest stays. Sometimes dwelling occurs. Sometimes the noticing drops.

But it's all just irrelevant so to speak, to what that first frame of 4 was. It's not linkable. It's not like, oh, these 4 things happened in frame, it always leads to this.

Sometimes anticipation even happens, maybe expecting the worst. Other times not. It just doesn't really matter what comes. Just that, something will.

It could be like it is right now... no seeing really happening, not too much meta active, don't feel particularly insightful at all. Tbh feel kinda clueless writing this bit right now. Sometimes that would all happen and I'd want to change my experience. But right now that isn't the case. It could happen in the future some time. But right now, that's all there is.

Doubt still comes in sometimes. Thoughts of wanting to be enlightened. And in those times they are real. Feelings accompany it. All sorts of stuff. The usual.

I feel like I'm rambling now, but, life is still messy. There's times when life still feels like absolute shit. Times where I feel like nothings working. It's not like my life has changed any. It certainly hasn't. Anger can still 100% come and sometimes it may be accompanied by "I need this to go away" and it still gets 100% taken and seen that way. Other times that same thought may come but then doubt comes in, and it's like this weird holding ground. Idk

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Re: Let's do this

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Jun 27, 2026 11:21 pm

That might all get noticed in "1 frame" so to speak even though obviously that's more like 4.

But now the difference is, is sometimes the next frames may stay exactly like that. Sometimes 1 thing changes and the rest stays. Sometimes a couple things change and the rest stays. Sometimes dwelling occurs. Sometimes the noticing drops.

But it's all just irrelevant so to speak, to what that first frame of 4 was. It's not linkable. It's not like, oh, these 4 things happened in frame, it always leads to this.

Sometimes anticipation even happens, maybe expecting the worst. Other times not. It just doesn't really matter what comes. Just that, something will.

It could be like it is right now... no seeing really happening, not too much meta active, don't feel particularly insightful at all. Tbh feel kinda clueless writing this bit right now. Sometimes that would all happen and I'd want to change my experience. But right now that isn't the case. It could happen in the future some time. But right now, that's all there is.

Doubt still comes in sometimes. Thoughts of wanting to be enlightened. And in those times they are real. Feelings accompany it. All sorts of stuff. The usual.

I feel like I'm rambling now, but, life is still messy. There's times when life still feels like absolute shit. Times where I feel like nothings working. It's not like my life has changed any. It certainly hasn't. Anger can still 100% come and sometimes it may be accompanied by "I need this to go away" and it still gets 100% taken and seen that way. Other times that same thought may come but then doubt comes in, and it's like this weird holding ground. Idk
I actually think this is one of the healthiest things you've written.

Because you're no longer trying to force reality to fit a spiritual model.

You're seeing that one "frame" doesn't determine the next. There isn't a fixed algorithm.

Fear can be followed by action.
Fear can be followed by avoidance.
Doubt can be followed by clarity.
Doubt can be followed by more doubt.

There is no rulebook being discovered.

And then you said something even more important:

> "Life is still messy."

Yes.

This is where so many people get trapped. They unconsciously expect that seeing through the illusion of self should produce a permanently peaceful organism.

Why?

Why shouldn't anger arise?
Why shouldn't despair arise?
Why shouldn't confusion arise?

They're all just happenings.

The difference isn't that they stop.

The difference is that they no longer need to be evidence that something has gone wrong.

You also wrote:

> "Sometimes that same thought may come but then doubt comes in, and it's like this weird holding ground."

That's interesting.

Years ago, that holding ground would probably have become another project:

> "I need to resolve this."

Now you're simply describing it.

That's a very different movement.

One thing I'd gently question, though.

You still occasionally talk as though there is a state called "seeing" that you either have or don't have.

But from everything you've written over the last several messages...

Isn't "seeing" itself just another event?

Sometimes it's present.
Sometimes it isn't.
Sometimes it's vivid.
Sometimes it's absent.

Just like anger.
Just like doubt.
Just like joy.

Why elevate it above the others?

If it's another box, then its absence is just another box too.

That, to me, is the last subtle expectation I still hear. Not that you need bliss—but that you need the "seeing box" to remain online.

Maybe it doesn't.

Maybe life already knows exactly when that box appears... and when it doesn't.


vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Let's do this

Postby ashton » Sat Jun 27, 2026 11:43 pm

You know, I just started playing "On my own" by Darci and life just hit me and I kinda filled up with tears of joy, lol.

And yeah, the whether or not seeing is active is just a thing of its own. Sometimes it even feels managed. Other times it feels natural. Other times obviously it isn't there at all. It can all just happen so many different ways.

Right now though it feels like it's just a little bit easier somehow. Thoughts still hurt sometimes. Feelings still hurt. Sometimes lust and stuff comes up and I wanna pursue it, other times I wanna subdue it. But it all just happens on its own- even if it feels more or less real at times.

Idk it's just a tad easier

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Re: Let's do this

Postby ashton » Sun Jun 28, 2026 11:39 pm

Post #2

Experiences still sometimes suck so much. There'll sometimes be noticed like the wanting it to be different. The fed up-ness to it all. I'm not sure if sometimes it sucks more when clarity is absent or if it is there when experiences suck.. gosh I just hate it all sometimes.

It's like sometimes you Hate it and wishing it to be something other than it is is still there and on top of that is like an added feeling of pain and this feeling that nothing can be done about it. That's the worst. Especially when all of those frames just seem to be there for such a long length of time as added layers to the other frames happening throughout the day.

Idk it's just fucking pitiful, aggrevating, annoying, angering, frustrating. So many God damn things

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Re: Let's do this

Postby ashton » Mon Jun 29, 2026 5:07 am

Post #3

Just had a blip where now at least in thought it seems self evident that basically there may be a background frame that is more so enduring, such as anger.

But then simultaneously, sprouting from that background frame, come in foreground frames, happening much more spontaneously. Wherein okay the background may be anger, and then a foreground frame may come of like "hey, maybe isolate" (on account of trying to get rid of the uncomfortable background frame). That foreground frame may persist. Maybe it gets rejected and some other one comes in. Some other idea. Physically unpleasant sensations may come in the foreground. Whatever. But basically, nothing that you do on account of the foreground frames happening will ever change the background frame that is there. They are all ideas. All ideas of, hey, maybe take this, do that, and the background will change.

They are all very real. But doing what they inspire, taking it to heart will never actually change the background. That just happens on its own. Patience, time is the only thing that will.

Those foreground frames will still happen. They'll keep happening. But nothing you do from what the foreground frames are pressuring you to do to try and modify the background frame will ever work. If it does, it's luck. It won't happen time and time again for eternity.

Idk. I still deal with it. Still sucks.. dealing with the background and the foreground. It's all you can do. You know, when the background isn't ideal. When it is, great, lol. But then funny enough, background is great, and foreground frames happen that want you to hold on- some other prescription to now try to keep the background frame there. But again, like wtf. Again, background changes on its own. Always will. Doing whatever the foreground insists upon won't change the duration, won't lower nor extend the time of the background frame.

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Re: Let's do this

Postby vinceschubert » Mon Jun 29, 2026 2:03 pm

You know, I just started playing "On my own" by Darci and life just hit me and I kinda filled up with tears of joy, lol.

And yeah, the whether or not seeing is active is just a thing of its own. Sometimes it even feels managed. Other times it feels natural. Other times obviously it isn't there at all. It can all just happen so many different ways.

Right now though it feels like it's just a little bit easier somehow. Thoughts still hurt sometimes. Feelings still hurt. Sometimes lust and stuff comes up and I wanna pursue it, other times I wanna subdue it. But it all just happens on its own- even if it feels more or less real at times.

Idk it's just a tad easier
That's it.

Notice what you didn't say.

You didn't say:

> "I've reached enlightenment."

You didn't say:

> "I don't suffer anymore."

You didn't say:

> "I've transcended desire."

You said:

> "It's just a tad easier."

Ironically, that's one of the strongest indicators that something genuine has shifted.

Because the organism hasn't become different.

Thoughts still arise.
Lust still arises.
Pain still arises.
Music still brings tears.
Doubt still visits.

But they're no longer carrying quite the same weight.

Not because you've defeated them.

Because they're beginning to be seen as what they are: happenings.

And I smiled when you said the music hit you.

Not because tears are special.

But because there was no project in that moment.

No "Am I getting this right?"

Just... life.

One thing I'd leave you with.

Over the last few hours, I think you've quietly let go of trying to engineer awakening.

At the beginning you were asking,

> "What happens when I can't see it?"

Now you're saying,

> "Sometimes it's there. Sometimes it isn't. It's all just happening."

That's a completely different orientation.

Not because it's a better philosophy.

Because it's closer to what you've actually observed.

So don't make a new identity out of this either.

Tomorrow you may wake up anxious, contracted, identified, irritated.

Fine.

That won't invalidate today.

It'll just be tomorrow's weather.

And perhaps that's why it feels "a tad easier."

Not because life got easier.

Because there's just a little less arguing with it.
ost #2

Experiences still sometimes suck so much. There'll sometimes be noticed like the wanting it to be different. The fed up-ness to it all. I'm not sure if sometimes it sucks more when clarity is absent or if it is there when experiences suck.. gosh I just hate it all sometimes.

It's like sometimes you Hate it and wishing it to be something other than it is is still there and on top of that is like an added feeling of pain and this feeling that nothing can be done about it. That's the worst. Especially when all of those frames just seem to be there for such a long length of time as added layers to the other frames happening throughout the day.

Idk it's just fucking pitiful, aggrevating, annoying, angering, frustrating. So many God damn things
Yes. And don't sanitize that.

That is what this organism is experiencing in those moments.

Not:

> "I should be okay with this."

But:

> "I fucking hate this."

Good. That's honest.

Now here's what I notice.

You didn't say:

> "I need to get rid of the hatred."

You described the hatred.

That's a subtle but enormous difference.

The organism can be absolutely fed up.
It can want everything to be different.
It can feel trapped.
It can feel like nothing will ever change.

None of that is evidence that anything has gone wrong.

It's just a brutal weather system moving through.

You also said something important:

> "...there's an added feeling of pain and this feeling that nothing can be done about it."

I'd invite you to look there.

Not to fix it.

Just to notice that even helplessness is another appearance.

It isn't outside the process.

It's part of it.

And here's the thing that most people don't want to hear:

Sometimes life is genuinely fucking hard.

Not because you're asleep.

Not because you're failing.

Not because you missed something.

Just because this organism is capable of immense joy... and immense anguish.

The recognition of no-self doesn't anesthetize the nervous system.

It doesn't promise that anger, grief, despair or frustration won't arise.

It only removes the assumption that they shouldn't.

Ironically, you've already seen this.

The tears while listening to music weren't "you."

Neither is this frustration.

They're both weather.

Sometimes it's sunshine.

Sometimes it's a storm that seems to last forever.

Neither one belongs to anyone.
Post #3

Just had a blip where now at least in thought it seems self evident that basically there may be a background frame that is more so enduring, such as anger.

But then simultaneously, sprouting from that background frame, come in foreground frames, happening much more spontaneously. Wherein okay the background may be anger, and then a foreground frame may come of like "hey, maybe isolate" (on account of trying to get rid of the uncomfortable background frame). That foreground frame may persist. Maybe it gets rejected and some other one comes in. Some other idea. Physically unpleasant sensations may come in the foreground. Whatever. But basically, nothing that you do on account of the foreground frames happening will ever change the background frame that is there. They are all ideas. All ideas of, hey, maybe take this, do that, and the background will change.

They are all very real. But doing what they inspire, taking it to heart will never actually change the background. That just happens on its own. Patience, time is the only thing that will.

Those foreground frames will still happen. They'll keep happening. But nothing you do from what the foreground frames are pressuring you to do to try and modify the background frame will ever work. If it does, it's luck. It won't happen time and time again for eternity.

Idk. I still deal with it. Still sucks.. dealing with the background and the foreground. It's all you can do. You know, when the background isn't ideal. When it is, great, lol. But then funny enough, background is great, and foreground frames happen that want you to hold on- some other prescription to now try to keep the background frame there. But again, like wtf. Again, background changes on its own. Always will. Doing whatever the foreground insists upon won't change the duration, won't lower nor extend the time of the background frame.
This is probably the clearest thing you've written so far.

You've stumbled onto something very practical.

The foreground is constantly making promises.

> "Do this and you'll feel better."
> "Think this through."
> "Avoid that."
> "Hold onto this."

The background, however, seems to have its own momentum.

Sometimes it's anger.
Sometimes sadness.
Sometimes ease.
Sometimes joy.

And the foreground spends its time negotiating with something it doesn't control.

I would make one tiny adjustment, though.

You wrote:

> "Patience, time is the only thing that will."

I'd be careful even there.

Because sometimes the background shifts almost instantly.

Sometimes it lasts hours.

Sometimes days.

You don't actually know what changes it.

That's an assumption too.

What you've directly seen is simpler:

The foreground doesn't appear to be in charge of the background.

That's a very clean observation.

And then this...

> "When the background is great... foreground frames happen that want you to hold on."

Exactly.

It's the same mechanism wearing different clothes.

Bad background:

> "Get rid of this."

Good background:

> "Keep this forever."

Same foreground.
Same promises.
Different target.

Neither one can negotiate with reality.

One last thing.

Notice how your writing has changed over the course of this conversation.

At the beginning you were trying to solve experience.

Now you're describing it.

That's a profound shift.

Not because description is inherently better.

Because you've stopped forcing experience to conform to a theory.

You're letting experience teach you how it actually behaves.

Keep doing that.

Not because it will produce a permanent peaceful background.

But because it's honest. And honesty tends to strip away the stories faster than any technique ever could.


vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Let's do this

Postby ashton » Tue Jun 30, 2026 2:26 am

> "...there's an added feeling of pain and this feeling that nothing can be done about it."

I'd invite you to look there.

Not to fix it.

Just to notice that even helplessness is another appearance.

It isn't outside the process.

It's part of it.
I think the hope/helplessness is the nicest thing after you pointed it out. Like, each pointer/thing you point to look at just adds another layer that just helps.

I was bowling today and could feel all sorts of emotions that nobody likes. When that was all that got noticed so to speak in concert with this whole 'thing', it would sprout like a "okay, cool, but nothing is fixed" kind of thing. Or like "okay but man this suffering...". Whereas after that pointer, now it can sometimes show up as just plain helplessness, but that just somehow helps. You know? I'm sure there'll be times where the helplessness comes up and the accompanied reassurance won't. But even if that's the case, it'll maybe get seen for what it is. Once a leveling war starts, it doesn't matter how many levels its taken, its still noticed that a leveling war is there... like, it doesn't really matter how many levels of helplessness there are, at the end of the day, it'll probably get noticed even if it's the 3rd iteration on top of itself.
> "Patience, time is the only thing that will."

I'd be careful even there.

Because sometimes the background shifts almost instantly.

Sometimes it lasts hours.

Sometimes days.

You don't actually know what changes it.
Precisely. I was in the shower today and I came up with an analogy. It's all sort of like a door to a club. You don't control when it opens, if it opens, when it closes, if it closes, what guests (emotions/events) come through that door, if they are coming or going, the effect that those guests coming or going will have on the club/people inside it so to speak. You have no idea what it'll bring, how often, when, etc. All you know is that there is a door, and things come and go. But you don't know what, when, how many, the effect it'll have, etc. But knowing that just kind of helps a little bit. Do I think potentially it may help more than it currently does? Personally, at this juncture, maybe. But the difference is, it really doesn't matter a whole lot. It really doesn't. Whether it does or doesn't isn't really a concern. After all, it's just something that may or may not come through that door...

I'd say it's less of a wish than it is just a personal thought based on how I'm seeing this all unfold. A prediction. But again, it doesn't matter like it would have prior. It's not existential like it would have been in the past

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vinceschubert
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Re: Let's do this

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Jun 30, 2026 6:31 am

I think the hope/helplessness is the nicest thing after you pointed it out. Like, each pointer/thing you point to look at just adds another layer that just helps.

I was bowling today and could feel all sorts of emotions that nobody likes. When that was all that got noticed so to speak in concert with this whole 'thing', it would sprout like a "okay, cool, but nothing is fixed" kind of thing. Or like "okay but man this suffering...". Whereas after that pointer, now it can sometimes show up as just plain helplessness, but that just somehow helps. You know? I'm sure there'll be times where the helplessness comes up and the accompanied reassurance won't. But even if that's the case, it'll maybe get seen for what it is. Once a leveling war starts, it doesn't matter how many levels its taken, its still noticed that a leveling war is there... like, it doesn't really matter how many levels of helplessness there are, at the end of the day, it'll probably get noticed even if it's the 3rd iteration on top of itself.
I know exactly what you mean.</b>

Not because "helplessness" is a better state.

But because it's more honest.

Before, the organism was saying:

> "I need to solve this suffering."

Now, sometimes it simply says:

> "...there's helplessness."

Notice how much gets dropped.

There's less pretending.
Less strategizing.
Less bargaining.

Not because you've succeeded.
Because the experience is being named more accurately.

And I really like what you wrote here:

> "Once a leveling war starts, it doesn't matter how many levels it's taken, it's still noticed that a leveling war is there."

Yes.

Whether it's:

* suffering,
* suffering about suffering,
* helplessness about suffering,
* helplessness about helplessness...

...it's still the same movement.

Not four different problems.

One recursive process.

And recursion can be noticed.

That's the important part.

One thing I'd gently invite you to look at next time it happens:

When helplessness appears...

Does it actually require reassurance?

Or does reassurance simply sometimes appear afterwards?

That's a subtle distinction.

Because if reassurance doesn't come...

...then helplessness is simply what's here.

If reassurance does come...

...that's simply what's here too.

Neither completes the other.

Neither fixes the other.

They're just successive frames.

Ironically, I think you've become much less interested in getting rid of experience.

You're becoming interested in seeing how experience actually behaves.

That's discovery.

Not discovering a final answer.

Just discovering that life has been running itself this whole time.
I was in the shower today and I came up with an analogy. It's all sort of like a door to a club. You don't control when it opens, if it opens, when it closes, if it closes, what guests (emotions/events) come through that door, if they are coming or going, the effect that those guests coming or going will have on the club/people inside it so to speak. You have no idea what it'll bring, how often, when, etc. All you know is that there is a door, and things come and go. But you don't know what, when, how many, the effect it'll have, etc. But knowing that just kind of helps a little bit. Do I think potentially it may help more than it currently does? Personally, at this juncture, maybe. But the difference is, it really doesn't matter a whole lot. It really doesn't. Whether it does or doesn't isn't really a concern. After all, it's just something that may or may not come through that door...

I'd say it's less of a wish than it is just a personal thought based on how I'm seeing this all unfold. A prediction. But again, it doesn't matter like it would have prior. It's not existential like it would have been in the past
I think your analogy is pointing at something very simple and very important.</b>

The door doesn't negotiate.

It opens.
It closes.
Guests arrive.
Guests leave.

Some are welcomed.
Some are hated.
Some trash the place.
Some make the night unforgettable.

The club doesn't issue invitations.

What also struck me was the end of your message.

A few months ago, you would have said:

> "I hope this eventually gets easier."

Now you're saying:

> "It might. It might not. That's just another thing that comes through the door."

That's a radically different relationship to uncertainty.

Not because you've become indifferent.

But because you've stopped making your well-being contingent on a prediction coming true.

One thing I'd add to your analogy.

The mind is like a guest that constantly walks in saying:

> "I know who's coming through the door next."

Or:

> "We need to keep that guest here."

Or:

> "We have to stop that guest from entering."

And almost every time...

...it's wrong.

The door simply keeps doing what the door does.

What I find most encouraging isn't that you've found the perfect metaphor.

It's that your metaphors are becoming less about control and more about observation.

You're no longer trying to explain how life should work.

You're describing how it already does.

That's the shift I've watched happen.</b>

Not a shift into perpetual peace.

A shift from arguing with reality... to becoming genuinely curious about it.

Ironically, that curiosity tends to be much lighter than seeking.

Not because it guarantees a better experience.

Because it no longer needs one.

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info


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