Truly Desperately Lost

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Zeno
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:10 am

For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour. Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them. And notice that you're not making them happen. You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of. And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience. You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.
Yes there is some sort of willingness intention that can start this experience to happen. With regard to what is said, I have those experiences on a daily basis now and the fear is gone that I am becoming a mindless robot. No actually emotional experiences is still there but it is less grasping to the content regardless of the emotional tone.
Thought is similar, word thought stops for quite some time (5-10 seconds) it is like a dripping sink. The drop is seen but it disappears quickly. If no grasping is on the thought there is also almost no memory trace as well.

What is curious though ist the starting point. It has great similarity with cold shower start. There is this thought with an expectation that something will happen. In case of cold shower, it is the thought that it is going to be uncomfortable first. So thought is starting a story about a one entity which is willing to do it, strong enough, a tough guy, he has to overcome the lazy other part, the comfortable part. But when looking at this what really happens is, that thought is making a good story out of what is happening. At some point a hand comes and turns the cold on. Bang! Why did this happen? Unclear, but the thought story is already gone. The cold takes it toll.
What I want to say is that there is no willing in the actual start of cold showering, but a conditioning of the moment to become more possible. Is that a consequence of thought? Partially yes I would say. There is an intentionality that is steered by thought processes. E.g. I read about Tummo and about cold-showers and the beneficial effects, that is why I started it.

So "take note of" is similar. I learned to make the shift happen less randomly. I can prime the conditions so that this shift is allowed to happen. The quality of "control" is new for me. Before that happened sometimes during meditation or in beautiful nature, now I can think of this shift and relax the body and pull attention down. Hmm no it is more like a letting loose of attention with this focused eye-position perspective and it drops down to breast area first. If it drops below to belly, thought is almost stopped, feels very comfortable but also a bit dumb, like a couch potato or tired. It is good though. But to stay active the drop has to be more to the breast region. Then there is this noticing of the sensation field, much broader (still sequential, not parallel, one sensation at each time, but rapid like 3-10 impressions per seconds??? Hard to tell, not slower but also not continuous. Visually it is sometimes like a very mild strobe effect or like migraine aura effects). Anyway, if the shift is this mixture in the breast area one can be even in extremely busy environments and still being broad for some 5-10 seconds before something disturbs it. In quiet areas unfortunately it doesn't stay longer before thought is interrupting or an image. Rarely it is longer.

Result: Can shift into this by priming or improving the conditions for this to happen. Thought is part of that if the shift is more to breast area. Below thought almost dies out (word-thought). Usually not much longer than 5-10 seconds.

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Seamist
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Seamist » Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:38 am

Ok
Come back to this bit of the instruction
You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of. And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience. You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.
I want to be sure that you get it.
x

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Zeno
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:53 pm

You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
Fine with that.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience. You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.
This statement is too broad or unclear. Let's have a look.
You're effortlessly aware of it [thought]
Yes that is true. But it is not that there is a third entity being aware of it. It is more like that thought is happening and certainly there is a knowing that thought happens.
Then there is also a certain freedom that allows to concentrate or put more attention on this thought than that thought. In that regard thought is similar to other sense experience. It happens yes, but there is a volitional capability to stick with this experience or that. That does not orchestrate the experience, but there is a choice on what to focus. If shifted the focus is much broader for example.

Code: Select all

but you're not orchestrating it
Yes there is no director general. But it is not that experience is choiceless. That is what I mean by experiencing like a robot as if there is no participation. There is participation without a participator or chooser, if that makes sense (it does not). There is not no choice or better to say: there is not no volition. But if looking there is no entity making the choice.
There is e.g. a difference between imagining a bad experience from the past and suffering from it by saying "this was so bad for me", and seeing the imagination of that bad experience and being aware that it is just an imagination but it is not happening for real right now. And there is a possibility for that choice by volitional propensities. It is like there is so much happening but there is a choice how to participate in it. Thought is part of that happening, but some thoughts are followed up on others not and that is not totally determined by the thought but also influenced by awarenesses of thought or not.

In other words, there is no knowing or experience of a findable entity that is responsible for a choice other than a thought processes. But volitional acts or choice nevertheless seem to happen on the level of awareness. E.g. to follow or be aware of rather this thought chain than that. The freedom to give up a chooser is also a choice.

Choice, volition, will, acting etc. does not go away and it contains a degree of freedom while at the same time there is no central entity to be findable to attribute that to if I look at what is happening in experience, thought included.

Hmm. It is still quite paradoxical when I reread what I was writing. Maybe there is no conclusion to that and both perspectives (no central orchestrator and no orchestrating vs. awareness ability to selectively focus) are possible.

Result: In the end there is this visceral feeling that there are choices and acts of will here. It is in thought, yes. But it also depends on where the focus of attention or awareness is, that will influence and shape future action. So there is a level of freedom involved. But when looking for a findable something that does that, it is not there. The something is only findable if thinking or conceptualizing about it, it is not there without thinking. But since thinking is part of experience it is there as content in the experience of thinking. That is not deniable.
I am confused still I guess. But I could live with both perspectives as well without falling to one side or the other. Maybe it is not so important in the end, as long as the perspective does not fall back (which it still does for most of the day).

Does it make sense to look here some more? Just to make sure?

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Seamist
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Seamist » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:06 am

Hi Matthias
I am confused still I guess.
It reads like there is a lot of thinking going on here - keep coming back to your actual direct experience, looking to see what you find in the senses.
Does it make sense to look here some more? Just to make sure?
I think yes. Try to keep it light and simple xxx

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Zeno
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:26 pm

Dear Sioned, I think too much that is for sure. I will have almost no time until saturday. I will go through this and report back on sunday.

Thanks so much!
Matthi

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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Seamist » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:51 am

ok xx

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Zeno
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:49 am

Dear Sioned, Corona is currently capturing all my time. I hope I will have time tomorrow. Sry about keeping you waiting.

Matthias

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Seamist
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Seamist » Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:24 am

Dear Matthias,
Sry about keeping you waiting.
Please don't worry about that. I hope you're ok?
xxx

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Zeno
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:35 pm

Sioned, I am fine. But people do strange things these days and as scientist I find myself in a role to explain a lot these days about risks and exponential curves.
You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of. And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience. You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.
There is awareness of thoughts happening. There is awareness of sense experience. The awareness does not orchestrate experience. Neither is it separate from experience or just watching experience. Awareness is expressed by experience, while experience is expressed in awareness. There is choice in awareness what of experience is experienced in awareness, there is no choice in what experience is experienced. This seems true for both thought and senses. Choice (e.g. seeing this object) comes with awareness and awareness comes with choice. They somehow are produced together or entangled.
I can go through this in detail with the example of a glas?

Matthias

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Seamist
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Seamist » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:56 am

Glad to know you're ok, Matthias. Yes, strange times.

Do you want to continue or would you rather a pause right now?
X Sioned

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Zeno
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:43 am

Thanks Sioned, I think I need to continue. The shifts are getting rare again, soo much thought and imagination. But I might be as slow as in the last days. When we were posting daily I needed slmost 2-3 hours a day for exploring. I will continue to post daily with a status daily, but progress and results might take a bit more time.

If that works for you let us please continue.

Much love and health
Matthias

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Seamist
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Seamist » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:25 pm

Yes, I can go with that, Matthias
so!
The story of "me’ can seem to have continuity. Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?


xx

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Zeno
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:00 pm

Is it really continuous? Or are there simply isolated thoughts that never can truly touch each other, some of them claiming that there's one continuous story?
No continuity there. First of all thoughts come and go. Between there can be pauses. So there is no continuity of the me thought or I perspective.

Thoughts also can change topic rather quickly, like 2-3 times per second. So there can be a string of single thoughts all dedicated to the topic Me. E.g. when I speak for me: "this laptop is mine" and concentrate on it, there are is mostly thoughts about "my laptop", in between thoughts that reflect on the meness or interpret body sensation (yeah that view is mine, that head feeling is mine) then back to "my laptop" etc. There is here and there another thought registering other things. But from the many thoughts, most are on the laptop and meness. Thoughts that fade away are thinning out in that constant stream of single thought topics. Randomly there is also a totally uncorrelated thought, but it does not kick of another thought pattern.

The topic of the thoughts seems to follow awareness. Follow here means that many thoughts are about the things I am ware of and less thoughts about other things. Hmm, I want to correct that.

So, when awareness is on seeing-my-hands-write-on-the-keyboard, the thoughts that write the words disappear (writing becomes automatic), in the sense that I do not need to be aware of what I am thinking to write this. The word production seems to come from the subvocalization in the throat and directly translate in fingers moving. So doing this I can shift my attention on seeing the fingers hush over the keyboard. That does not feel like thinking, but thinking must happen since words appear on the screen. Same is true if I shift awareness to the throat area, to sense subvocalization. That is for me the litmustest for word-thought going on.
When if I shift awareness on the content of the words, then I drop into the story and then the feeling of "Me thinking" is strong. With "feeling of me thinking" I am not sure if that is another thought. Hmmm. acually it is another thought. It seems that there is a mode to be with the thoughts but not in the thoughs. It is a different way of realizing thoughts than the subvocalization route.

Oka maybe the topic of the thoughts seems to follow awareness as
1) there is a selection of specific thoughts going on by my awareness.
2) thoughts are influenced by the content of the senses.

Now I am not sure anymore, if the moments of not-thought, that I had before were really no-thought moments, or that awareness just ignored thought?

No, tried it. This is not the case. If the shift is happening, thoughts stop. Not completely, but the stream is reduced to like oe thought arising every 1-2 seconds. Each tgought comes with a inner sensation of disturbance. Like something is poking. the poking is a rush in the neck and throat to upper head or crown area, mostly in the face. Thought starts and then there is this subtle wave. It is not comfortable, has a stressful tone.

But thoughts seem to stop as well, while I am writing words, but my awareness is on the keyboards and fingers writing on it as decribed above. That is strange as words are usually connected to thought? But there is no though, it is just fingers tipping on keyboard. Funny. They should write a beststeller!

Result: Thoughts are singular. They do not touch, but can be about the same topic (which is another thought claiming that - memory thought). It seems to be continuous, like a movie. There is no need to claim that continuity by another thought, I am trained to perceive thought that way. Looking at a fine grained level, these are all single discontinuous thoughts stitched together by the speed and quantity of occurence. Outlyer thoughts are ignored unless their content becomes the new kernel for a thought stream.

Much love! Matthias

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Seamist
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Seamist » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:08 pm

Hi Matthias
No continuity there. First of all thoughts come and go. Between there can be pauses. So there is no continuity of the me thought or I perspective.
you've answered this right there at the beginning. YES. No need to make it more complicated that that.

Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this? Isn’t a thought only known as it appears? In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?

xx

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Zeno
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Re: Truly Desperately Lost

Postby Zeno » Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:46 pm

No need to make it more complicated that that.
I know. Will try to cut short the thinking.
The thinking and getting a result there helps sceptical thoughts to quiet down, I have a sense of relief in the body, relaxation and it and allows me to be more quiet. It really opens space.

It might sometimes give a wrong impression that I am writing so much about the thought processes. This journaling helps me a lot in processing. I am posting these inner thought processes although essentially it is not necessary to do so. I try to be more concise with the result and do BLUF (bottom line up front), so that there is no need to go through the long sections. I will still post them thought, as for me it is helpful to have it all in one place. Also it was nice to read back then through other peoples process with greater detail in other threats (I do not read in other threats since I started my own process).
Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this?
Result: No. Not the next thought.
Isn’t a thought only known as it appears?
Result: Yes, if "known" means to be experienced.
In that case, can you possibly claim to be in control of the thinking process, the thoughts, choices or impulses that arise, unless you can somehow instigate them beforehand?
Result: There is no selfcontained, separated entity experienced, that can control or choose. However, the "claim" of the sentence above, that there is no chooser, is also a thought.

Long Version
I cannot determine the next thought. While experiemtning with this, however, there was a possibility to prime myself to have a thought more often than other thoughts. I was closing my eyes and thought "I will look on the red LEDs from the oven clock". Then I thought that I will concentrate on the LED lights also in thought. Then I opened my eyes (did not leave them closed). And from then on many more thoughts were about the LED lights or involving LED lights. For sure there ere many other thoughts. So which one was next was not predictable. Also to think which one is next, one needs a thought as well. But overall most thoughts were about red LED lights like: Still looking at LED lights? Oh no thought not about LED lights. Oh LED Lights, really red etc. So there is clearly a causal connection.

In direct experience:
With regards to choice: yes there is choice. clearly there is. The choice comes in the arising moment. It is instanteneous. It is not a thought, but a process, and it is not arbitrary. It is a process in awareness, that selects. It really does not seem like everything is completely determined (i.e. robotical or automatical).
With regard to a separate chooser: no there is no separate entity (chooser) findable. Although there is choicing, choice in the process. The separate chooser comes into existence in the moment of thinking about choice.

In thought:
Descriptively, when I am writing or thinking about it, there are 2 possible ways of description:
1) There is no chooser, there is no precognition what will happen, no knowledge/thought of the next thought or choice or action. No entity findable. This description of direct experience is also a thought process. This side is usually not seen normally before LU.
2) There is a chooser and a choice. "Normal" description of subject and object. Action, choice etc. fall on the subject's side.

I think 1) and 2) seem to be contradictory. But not in my direct experience. Maybe I still miss something? Both sides are part of direct experience, but with different aspects. One side stresses the interactive side, the participation. The other description stresses the openness and miracoulesness of experience as it unfolds. Still, forcing one side of the description seems one sided.

There is no separate chooser, but there is neither a completely determined reality, that is "awared". Or in other words, all that is known is cooriginated by awareness of it without an entity that awares? This does not make real sense, but it seems true.

Xoxo
Matthias


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