The Gate

Hi Chris,

If you imagine that it isn't merging with it, then no. (This was a lazy speculation, I know. No way you're gonna let me get away with that one....but it seemed like a crazy question!!).

I let you go with this one :)

Let’s continue with the clock and try to find a hearer...if sound is actually heard.

Here is a link to a clock sound on Youtube. Do this experiment several times before replying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al3Xt8YnGE0

Sit quietly and take in a few deep breaths, relax and then focus on the experience of the tick tock sound. Set aside ALL verbal and visual thoughts, ideas, speculations, etc. throughout this experiment and just focus on the sound itself.

Please reply to all questions ONE-BY-ONE. Don't bulk reply.


In 'hearing' can anything be found other than the sound?
Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only sound?

Is there a dividing line between ‘hearer’ AND sound? Can a ‘hearer’ be experienced?
What do you find?

Is there a 'hearer' in 'what is being heard’? In other words, in experience is there a hearer AND sound, or is there only the sound?

Is there an INHERENT HEARER, or it is only thought that suggests that there is a hearer AND sound?

Are you ever aware of two experiences or more at 'any given time'? When sound shows up, is there a 'sound experience' and a 'knowing of sound' experience?
If not, then how can the sound be known through hearing?

Also, try to locate the sensation that is seemingly being the one (the hearer) who is doing the hearing (the sense of a hearer). And investigate the sensation itself if it is really the hearer. Let me know what you find.

Please repeat this exercise several times before replying. Be very thorough.

Vivien

Hi Vivien

I let you go with this one :)

Aw thanks :)

Okay I'm really going to take my time with this next excercise, and take a few days or so, as I'm quite busy this weekend.
Will drop you a line again tomorrow, but I want to make sure I don't try and rush the exercise to 'get it done' by then. So it might just be a brief one-liner tomorrow.

Best,

Chris

Hi Chris,

Thank you for letting me know. I like your commitment and thoroughness :)

Have a nice evening,
Vivien

Hi Vivien

I like your commitment and thoroughness :)

Thanks :)

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than the sound?
Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only sound?

Only sound. The illusion of hearer can be 'seen'. But actual hearer can't be found.

Is there a dividing line between ‘hearer’ AND sound? Can a ‘hearer’ be experienced?
What do you find?

There is a sensation that creates the illusion of a dividing line. It is located in the head, and it is like the mind 'blinks' for a moment to give the illusion of separation.

Is there a 'hearer' in 'what is being heard’? In other words, in experience is there a hearer AND sound, or is there only the sound?

Only sound

Is there an INHERENT HEARER, or it is only thought that suggests that there is a hearer AND sound?

So there is sensation, very briefly - the 'blink'. And then thought suggests this to mean there is a hearer and sound, with a dividing line in between.

Are you ever aware of two experiences or more at 'any given time'? When sound shows up, is there a 'sound experience' and a 'knowing of sound' experience?

(This is a bit confusing. Like, I could be chewing gum at the same time as hearing the sound, and be aware of both experiences at the same time, right?)
But, let's forget about that for a moment...

What I got is:
Sound experience
'Blink'
'Knower' of sound experience
...in that order

Also, try to locate the sensation that is seemingly being the one (the hearer) who is doing the hearing (the sense of a hearer). And investigate the sensation itself if it is really the hearer. Let me know what you find.

Again, it's just the 'blink' that creates the illusion of separation (a dividing line), which leads to the speculation - or assumption - of mind that there's a hearer. That there is a subject - object relationship.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Now do something similar with seeing.

Look at the display before you.

In the ‘seeing’ can anything be found than the seen?
Can what is doing the seeing be found? Or is there only the seen?

Is there a dividing line between ‘seer’ AND the seen? Can a ‘seer’ be experienced?
What do you find?

Is there a ‘seer’ in what is being seen? In other words, in experience is there a seer AND seen, or is there only the seen?

Is there an INHERENT SEER, or it is only thought that suggests that there is a seer AND seen?

Try to locate the sensation that is seemingly being the one (the seer) who is seemingly performing the act of seeing. And investigate the sensation itself if it is really the seer. Let me know what you find.

Vivien

Hi Vivien

In the ‘seeing’ can anything be found than the seen?
Can what is doing the seeing be found? Or is there only the seen?

Nothing can be found other than the seen (there are some sensations present as well...and then I notice thoughts almost beginning to form speculations around a 'seer', but they don't get off the ground. The thoughts don't fully form).

Is there a dividing line between ‘seer’ AND the seen? Can a ‘seer’ be experienced?
What do you find?

I am here looking...and there is what is seen
....just, what is seen.
Then, as I go to address the question "Can a 'seer' be experienced?" I notice this 'blinking' thing briefly and then thought speculation beginning to form. But again, the thoughts don't fully form...so speculation doesn't happen.

So the 'blinking thing' is a sensation. And then...thought doesn't attach to that sensation to label it as a dividing-line-with-a-'seer'-on-the-other-side.

Pretty interesting - seeing this. Feels like progress.

Is there a ‘seer’ in what is being seen? In other words, in experience is there a seer AND seen, or is there only the seen?

In experience there is only the seen.

Is there an INHERENT SEER, or it is only thought that suggests that there is a seer AND seen?

No...only thought that suggests it, after attaching to a sensation.

Try to locate the sensation that is seemingly being the one (the seer) who is seemingly performing the act of seeing. And investigate the sensation itself if it is really the seer. Let me know what you find.

Wow. This time there was some visual imagery of my face, appearing in thought/mind. Combined with sensation.
Sensations all around the face, quick as a flash, delineating the shape of my jaw and nose (as if to say "see - it's me, Chris!")
Not like little entities. But separate combinations of separate processes. Very subtle but having the appearance of coalescing around an identity (not speculating here - just trying to show how the illusions form).

So there is only the seen, in experience.
But in imagination a whole load of other stuff is happening.

Chris

Hi Chris,

You did an excellent looking :)

Then, as I go to address the question "Can a 'seer' be experienced?" I notice this 'blinking' thing briefly and then thought speculation beginning to form. But again, the thoughts don't fully form...so speculation doesn't happen.
So the 'blinking thing' is a sensation. And then...thought doesn't attach to that sensation to label it as a dividing-line-with-a-'seer'-on-the-other-side.

And if there were speculation about it, would that be a problem? Does the presence or absence of speculation change the fact that there is no seer?

Wow. This time there was some visual imagery of my face, appearing in thought/mind. Combined with sensation.
Sensations all around the face, quick as a flash, delineating the shape of my jaw and nose (as if to say "see - it's me, Chris!")
Not like little entities. But separate combinations of separate processes. Very subtle but having the appearance of coalescing around an identity (not speculating here - just trying to show how the illusions form).

It’s very good if you can see the process how the illusion is formed.

So there is only the seen, in experience.
But in imagination a whole load of other stuff is happening.

So, does the imagination change the fact that there is only the seen?
Does the imagination has to go away, or is it enough to see that it’s just an imagination and not reality?

Vivien

Hi Vivien

You did an excellent looking :)

Thanks! I was hoping you'd say that :)

And if there were speculation about it, would that be a problem? Does the presence or absence of speculation change the fact that there is no seer?

The problem would be if the speculation isn't seen to be speculation, i.e. if it is believed.
The presence or absence of speculation doesn't change the fact of there not being a seer - but if there is speculation and it's not seen as being just speculation, then it could prevent reality from being seen clearly.

So, does the imagination change the fact that there is only the seen?
Does the imagination has to go away, or is it enough to see that it’s just an imagination and not reality?

The imagination doesn't change the fact that there is only the seen (because it's always been this way - so it's never changed the fact)...but it could get in the way of seeing that there is only the seen.
It can be enough to see clearly that it's just an imagination. The imagination doesn't have to completely stop.

Thanks so much for the ongoing help.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Thanks so much for the ongoing help.

You are very welcome. You are busting believes beautifully, one after another :)

It can be enough to see clearly that it's just an imagination. The imagination doesn't have to completely stop.

And does it need to be seen 24/7, or is it OK to dive into the story sometimes?


Is character Chris here without a story about a character?
Does story about a character make the character into a real entity?
Does story about Pinocchio makes Pinocchio a real boy? :)

Vivien

Hi Vivien

And does it need to be seen 24/7, or is it OK to dive into the story sometimes?

No it doesn't need to be seen 24/7. Of course it's okay to be 'in the story' as it were, otherwise it would be pretty impractical in terms of living one's life. I would have to be living in a cave somewhere.

I think it just needs to be seen repeatedly, here and there....here and there...

Is character Chris here without a story about a character?

Well, the body is still here...and there's still a passport :)

It feels really like a philosophical question...and it feels a bit like speculation to say: of course he'll still be here.
But from observation...he never disappears.
Life is still being lived, just like it's always been.

But...is there a deeper truth you're pointing to here - or have I answered the question fully?

Does story about a character make the character into a real entity?

No. Not an entity...but the illusion of an entity.

Does story about Pinocchio makes Pinocchio a real boy? :)

No it doesn't. But it still brings a lot of enjoyment to many :)

Chris

Hi Chris,

It feels really like a philosophical question...and it feels a bit like speculation to say: of course he'll still be here.
But from observation...he never disappears.

It's not a philosophical questions. It's a practical one. I don't ask philosophical questions.
If it seems to be philosophical than it means that you are not looking.

Are you saying that the character Chris/me is actually here?

Where? Please point with your finger (literally) to the me character.
Where do you point at?

Life is still being lived, just like it's always been.

And what is living life? The character?
What is it that has a life?
What owns life?
Is life owned by Chris?
Or life is just ‘free-floating’, without belonging to anyone or anything?

Vivien

Hi Vivien

I found it easier to change the order of the questions around a bit:

Or life is just ‘free-floating’, without belonging to anyone or anything?

Yes. This is it. This is a clear description of what is happening.

Are you saying that the character Chris/me is actually here?

No, not actually here in actual experience.
Here now:...breathing...seeing colours around the room....sensations...

And what is living life? The character?
What is it that has a life?

There isn't a 'thing' or entity that is living life. Living-ness is happening. There isn't an actual thing that has a life.

What owns life?

There is no owner that can be found in observation.

Is life owned by Chris?

There is no owner that can be found in observation.

Where? Please point with your finger (literally) to the me character.
Where do you point at?

Aaarrgghh...resistance!!

It is just impossible right now to not point in the direction of the head or body.

Visual images coming up in the mind of George Orwell's 1984...

Not huge fear tho'. More like annoyance. (Actually it is contracted body sensations).

I haven't pointed at anything yet. I'm just sat here, not pointing at anything.
I want to put the fan on again and listen to the noise, see the lack of separation...and then point at both!

Chris

Hey Vivien...are you still with me here?

Hi Chris,

As I said, I won’t leave you :)

My impression was that you didn’t finished with your previous set of questions (with the pointing), so I was waiting for your next post.

V: Where? Please point with your finger (literally) to the me character.
Where do you point at?

C: I haven't pointed at anything yet. I'm just sat here, not pointing at anything.
I want to put the fan on again and listen to the noise, see the lack of separation...and then point at both!

So, where is the character me? Where do you point at?

How things are since we last talked?

Vivien

Hi Vivien

As I said, I won’t leave you :)

No...but you had me a bit worried there for a minute.

So, where is the character me? Where do you point at?

How things are since we last talked?

Things are good since we last talked, thanks.
Been reflecting on why I was getting a mini-freakout over the last part of that exercise. I think its to do with the body. I just feel like I have to include the body when I'm told to point to the self. I can't exclude it or pretend its not part of 'me'.
I haven't tried the exercise literally until today - just a few moments ago. When I pointed towards my body I felt a resistance...like it didn't quite feel true. I am more than the body - but I am not not the body.
I've been 'looking' a lot these last two days...seeing the lack of separation as I'm looking out at the world during the day. Long walks out in nature. The sea, the birds, the sky, the sunset...and not experiencing a sense of separation as I look at these things.
So, I feel like I want to point in all directions (including my body as well as everything else) to actually point to my 'true self'.

Chris