My Thread

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk,

I tried a meditation where I got in touch with each aspect of experience then tried to imagine it being taken away. Obviously this didn't work in getting in touch with nothingness because the mind had to try to imagine the absence i.e make a something out of it.

Indeed, imagination can never lead to anything real.

However when I looked in direct experience it became easier to comprehend, for example looking at the sense of smell when I wasn't breathing in through the nose - it's just not there, and there is no absence to be found either. I still can't understand how awareness can still be there when there's nothing to be aware of, but I don't want to overthink it so I'll leave it for now and just continue with the exercises.

Why do you want to be aware of something that is not there?
There is the experience of sense impression – whatever it is in the given moment –
and that is noticed.
Why should there be something different?

Some decades back there was an experiment on this:
A test-person was put into a pool of salt water which was kept at body-temperature.
The body was just floating in the pool.
Furthermore the room was kept total sound proof and completely dark.
The purpose of the experiment was to reduce any external sense impression
to the absolute minimum.
After a few minutes the test had to be cancelled as the mental health of the
test-person was threatened.
The mind had invented so many hallucinations that it got unbearable for the
test-person to continue with the experiment.


Now of course one could ask what is the difference to day to day-experience?
Inside the brain it is totally dark.
In the brain there is no sound, smell and all that.
An any sense impression that got translated to some conclusion is still nothing
but a good guess, as stated in the TED contribution.

And what is the difference between a good guess and a hallucination?

Keep on questioning all believes:
“Do I exist because I think myself into existence?”
“Is there a difference between me and sense impression itself?”

Look really close.
Please don’t try to come to fast conclusions.
Do not imagine.
Do not refer to any conclusion the mind might present.
Place the question and just get quiet about it.
Do not wait for an answer.

Warmly

nina

[thursday123]

Nina,

Why do you want to be aware of something that is not there?

I don't think I do, there wouldn't be any point

Why should there be something different?

There shouldn't, that could only be an idea

And what is the difference between a good guess and a hallucination?

Nothing - neither is more or less real than the other

“Do I exist because I think myself into existence?”
“Is there a difference between me and sense impression itself?”

I meditated on both of these, but as always when I look at direct experience and ignore thought content, I didn't find anything


Beanstalk

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk,

And what is the difference between a good guess and a hallucination?

Nothing - neither is more or less real than the other

Yes, quite so.
Just consider a dream at night-time.
Everything looks so real, sometimes it looks even like an everyday environment.
We seem to be ourselves in our bodies surrounded by things and
interacting with the surroundings.
It appears to be so very real.
But then, waking up, there is the sudden realisation: “Uups, that was a dream.
All was just a fancy illusion...”

Now consider where your person and all things as well as other persons in the dream came from.
What is their source?
Where do they come from or being derived from?

Warmly

nina

[thursday123]

Nina,

What is their source?

There is no source exactly, they just appear

Where do they come from or being derived from?

from nowhere really - from the capacity for what is


Could I have a few days to go back over what we've already been doing a couple of times? I feel like I'm starting to get it in a way I wasn't before and feel like I could do with going over some of it again


Beanstalk

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk,

Could I have a few days to go back over what we've already been doing a couple of times? I feel like I'm starting to get it in a way I wasn't before and feel like I could do with going over some of it again

Sure. It’s always a good idea to re-read and re-do the thread.

Is there anything specific you'd like to look closer at?

Or would you like to have some days without new posts?

What is their source?

<There is no source exactly, they just appear

Would you agree to say that the surroundings in the dream
as well as the dream body are a projection of sorts?

The dream with all its content; the dream body,
the dream whatever appears there, let’s say the dream monster or/and
the dream sky – anything – does it not in a very intimate way belong
to the person laying in bed sleeping?
The person is all of them; or maybe not really any of them.

Waking up the person might recall:
“I had a dream.”
However, more close to reality he would have to state:
“I was a dream.”

Back in waking life the projection of sorts just continues.
That’s why so much stress is given on direct experience.
Direct experience is just the raw sense data.
Labels and interpretations are added later.
And then the identification starts:
This is happening to ME.
Looking really close there is nothing to identify with.

Please let me know how you go


Warmly

nina

[thursday123]

Nina,

Or would you like to have some days without new posts?

I'd prefer to have a few days without new posts if that's okay

Would you agree to say that the surroundings in the dream
as well as the dream body are a projection of sorts?

yes that's definitely true, and I know I cannot identify with the 'me' in the dream. It is just part of the experience the same as everything else within the dream. 'I' am all of it and none of it at once. That is clear


Beanstalk

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk,

just let me know when you feel ready to continue.

Warmly

nina

[thursday123]

Nina,

I am ready to continue.

Quick overview of the last few days:
I've been getting a strong urge to just sit and watch thoughts whenever I can, usually with a straightforward question in mind like 'where is the thinker?' or 'is thought aware of what it says?' It's pretty simple but something tells me that's all I really need to keep doing.

When looking into the silent awareness I felt like I had a mini breakthrough where it occurred to me: awareness isn't really anything, it can't be 'found' or pointed at, but it has to be there because there would be nothing there (as in no experience) if there wasn't

I have been trying to examine beliefs in direct experience as much as I can. Some, like the belief that I have a nationality, just fell away straight away, whereas others, like 'I am (adjective)' were more difficult, because when I looked in direct experience there were memories associated with them which showed up and appeared to reinforce them. I tried to look at them as just thoughts but they seemed quite stubborn.

Also, I was wondering if, when looking at beliefs, it was helpful to use the technique suggested by jed mckenna where you start with a belief and then look at it and keep on trying to state something true again and again until you're left with nothing. For example starting with 'i am tall' then 'false self is tall' then 'false self is taller than the average person' then 'false self has a height' etc...

Beanstalk

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk,

thanks for the reply.

Quick overview of the last few days:
I've been getting a strong urge to just sit and watch thoughts whenever I can, usually with a straightforward question in mind like 'where is the thinker?' or 'is thought aware of what it says?' It's pretty simple but something tells me that's all I really need to keep doing.

When looking into the silent awareness I felt like I had a mini breakthrough where it occurred to me: awareness isn't really anything, it can't be 'found' or pointed at, but it has to be there because there would be nothing there (as in no experience) if there wasn't

Yes, exactly. Lovely revelation.
Awareness is nothing that can be noticed by the mind or
through thinking as it is not an object.
From the point of view of the mind it doesn't exist.

I have been trying to examine beliefs in direct experience as much as I can. Some, like the belief that I have a nationality, just fell away straight away, whereas others, like 'I am (adjective)' were more difficult, because when I looked in direct experience there were memories associated with them which showed up and appeared to reinforce them. I tried to look at them as just thoughts but they seemed quite stubborn.

Also, I was wondering if, when looking at beliefs, it was helpful to use the technique suggested by jed mckenna where you start with a belief and then look at it and keep on trying to state something true again and again until you're left with nothing. For example starting with 'i am tall' then 'false self is tall' then 'false self is taller than the average person' then 'false self has a height' etc...

Hm, actually I wouldn't recommend to go too much into the ‘believe questioning’.
The tendency to rely on something thought is suggesting can never lead to a truth beyond thought.
When something comes up spontaneously, like for example:
‘I’m proud to be tall’ – or
‘I’m ashamed to be tall’
you can look at it – but to go into these issues intentionally might end just
in an aimless loop of thoughts.

Let’s try to peel the onion:

Are the thoughts and thought content me?
Are the bodily sensations me?
Are the felt emotions me?

Here is an exercise to look between thought:


This exercise has a dual purpose.
Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear.
Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look
when looking for the ‘separate self’.
Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts.
First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere,
several times throughout your day.
Close your eyes and just notice thoughts.
Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise
“this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or
“I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come.
So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.


Let me know how you go.


Warmly

nina

[thursday123]

Nina,

Here is an exercise to look between thought:

For some reason I find this exercise really difficult. It's like my mind tries to sabotage the exercise by making it so there are no gaps in between my thoughts. Most of the time there was just a song playing in my head over and over or some weird imagined sensations of things moving really fast. It also seemed there was always some low-level thought going on in the background, even if it was only something like 'is this a gap between thoughts?' when there was less going on. For some reason, whenever I try to just sit and watch thoughts, they take on a certain form, usually of certain phrases just occurring again and again or a song playing or something.

But it did remind me, like you said, how carefully I must look when searching for a separate self, and the need for a sense of urgency when doing so. Immediately afterwards I spent some time questioning whether there was a me 'tied up somewhere within thought' as my mind suggested and felt like I was looking closer at thought than ever, frustratedly asking 'where? where? WHERE?' and watching as more and more thought-stories popped up with wrong explanations

I know this is just the mind trying to distract me, but I was wondering, should I have 'seen' there is no self by now? It's just I remember reading in the gateless gatecrashers book that there were some people who got there in a few days or something. I'm going to keep at it for as long as I need to but was just wondering if there is an average of how long it takes most people


Beanstalk

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk,

For some reason I find this exercise really difficult. It's like my mind tries to sabotage the exercise by making it so there are no gaps in between my thoughts. Most of the time there was just a song playing in my head over and over or some weird imagined sensations of things moving really fast. It also seemed there was always some low-level thought going on in the background, even if it was only something like 'is this a gap between thoughts?' when there was less going on. For some reason, whenever I try to just sit and watch thoughts, they take on a certain form, usually of certain <phrases just occurring again and again or a song playing or something.

What is your mind?
Is it a central scrutinizer?
Just see how every thought craves to be believed.
See that the mind cannot sabotage anything.
When there are no gaps, then there are not gaps. Period.
And that is totally OK.
Looking with thought at something beside thought is impossible anyway.
It is like deliberately ‘quieten the mind’.
The more thought intentionally aims to stop thoughts the more they’ll get proliferated…

When there is music playing in the mind just see it like a kitchen radio playing all day long.
Is it disturbing?
The kitchen radio is just a background static.
Something there you can listen to or not.
Is it true what the radio is telling?
Does it have any connection to your life, your person?

But it did remind me, like you said, how carefully I must look when searching for a separate self, and the need for a sense of urgency when doing so. Immediately afterwards I spent some time questioning whether there was a me 'tied up somewhere within thought' as my mind suggested and felt like I was looking closer at thought than ever, frustratedly asking 'where? where? WHERE?' and <watching as more and more thought-stories popped up with wrong explanations

Yes, thought can only offer explanations.
Thought is the field of the known, of concepts, learned patterns and so on -
what by itself is OK and has its own value.
However thought is just the wrong means to look at what is looking.
Any explanation would be of the field of the known.
Something unknown doesn’t exist for the mind.
When asking the question:
‘Who am I?’
don’t look for a quick answer.
Most probably there isn’t any answer.
What you might find is blank silence – and that is the answer.

I know this is just the mind trying to distract me, but I was wondering, should I have 'seen' there is no self by now? It's just I remember reading in the gateless gatecrashers book that there were some people who got there in a few days or something. I'm going to keep at it for as long as I need to but was just wondering if there is an average of how long it takes most people

There is no average of how long it might take.
Some people are at this for decades…
Please do not compare, this is meaningless.
The gatecrashers book is meant as an inspiration; it wants to show that the truth about the self or better the absence of the self it is nothing mysterious, hidden or secret.
It is a truth everybody can realize; a truth like a precious gem or big gold nugget
in some hidden corner of ones pocket.
It is always there regardless whether the owner of the pocket is aware of the treasure or not.

When you learn to witness your thoughts like clouds passing through the sky and to disbelieve,
or at least suspend, conclusions about their truth, you might become more aware of a silent inner space.
It is like witnessing from the inside.
You are in the very center of your experience without being lost in it.
The experience is actually and direct.
It is nothing extra-ordinary.
It is just totally ordinary; naturally.

Here is an exercise you know already.
Try not to refer to the mind for conclusions.
There are no conclusions:


Sit comfortably, close your eyes and take a few deep breaths to settle in.
Notice your present experience.
Feel the various sensations of your body – touch, sound, taste, smell….
Be aware of the thoughts that arise and pass trough your mind like clouds
that come and go in the sky.
Don’t try to stop or change them.
Notice when your attention hops onto a train of thought.

Ask yourself: ‘What is this that is aware of thought?’
Don’t think about it.
Relax into the background awareness.
Notice the nature of this awareness.

Does it exist at any time other than now?
Can it be located in space?
Does it have any center or boundary?
Does it have any form at all?

Explore your experience of it.

Can this awareness be defined, or is it empty of all definitions?
Does it refuse anything, or is it open to all experience?
Is it unconscious, or is it awake, aware, and knowing?

Now BE this empty, open awake awareness. ( :


Warmly

nina

[thursday123]

Nina,

Is it true what the radio is telling?

no, it is just noise

Does it have any connection to your life, your person?

same as above

Here is an exercise you know already.

For some reason I still can't locate the unchanging, everything-less awareness in the background, only thought itself which is forever changing. I will keep trying. however I think this is on the right track - I just want to keep looking at thought until I know for sure it is not self-aware and there is no thinker tied up in it, because for every other aspect of experience it seems pretty obvious now


Beanstalk

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk,


There is nothing to locate.

I just want to keep looking at thought until I know for sure it is not self-aware and there is no thinker tied up in it, because for every other aspect of experience it seems pretty obvious now

Here is a work of somebody about this issue.
It is terribly long but you might be interested in this:


LOOKING AT BELIEFS
The most important question is:
"Is there anything other than experience?"
The main beliefs are:
1. "I believe that there are objects (things) and subjects (people)”.
2. ”I believe that there is a thinker of thought. And that I am it".
3. ”I believe that I am a separate person living a life”.
4. ”I believe that there are others (rocks, things, people, etc..)”.
5. ”I believe that there is something other than experience”.
In order to see what is real and what is beliefs
the following questions may help:
DO I EXIST?
BELIEF says: Yes.
KNOWING says: Yes.
HOW DO I KNOW THAT?
BELIEF: Because I am an existing person.
KNOWING: Because there is experience of this sentence.
Just the fact that *I* know anything, is enough proof that *I* exist.
WHAT IS THIS "I"?
BELIEF: I am a separate, aware person.
KNOWING: *I am* not a person.
*I am* Actual Experience.
Here, Now.
Self-aware and completely alone.
WHO/WHAT AM I?
BELIEF: I am a separate person in a body.
KNOWING: *I am* whatever is present:
ColorSoundTasteSmellSensationThought.
The belief in my being a conscious space-and-time based organism, that is the false self that most needs to be seen through in order for anything non-dual to make any sense.
WHO/WHAT IS EXPERIENCING?
BELIEF: I, me, this person.
KNOWING: Experience is self knowing, it's not experiencing itself.
There is only experience, no experiencing.
A person is known - it knows nothing.
No person has ever experienced anything, because there are no separate persons.
AM I JUST A THOUGHT?
BELIEF: No, I am a physical organism.
KNOWING: No, *I am* Actual Experience, all there is.
WHO KNOWS ANYTHING?
BELIEF: I do, me, the separate person.
KNOWING: There is only knowing - the knowing with which *this-here-now* is known.
*I* know everything already because *I am* THIS, which is everything.
BUT I EXPERIENCE THINGS?
BELIEF: Yes, I experience the universe.
KNOWING: No, nothing experiences anything.
For experiencing there would need to be two, something experiencing something.
WHERE IS THIS "I" LOCATED?
BELIEF: Inside my body/head.
KNOWING: Experience has no location because it doesn't take place in either space or time.
There is no space or time, only experience.
IS THERE A "HERE" AND A ”THERE"?
BELIEF: Yes, I´m here, but I can go there.
KNOWING: No, *I am* always here.
Anything outside of Actual Experience is a belief.
ISN´T THIS MATERIAL UNIVERSE ALL THERE IS?
BELIEF: Yes, that is all I know anything about.
KNOWING: No, there can never be anything else but *I* - experience aware of myself - all there is.
WHAT EXISTS?
BELIEF: The great Universe.
KNOWING: Experience is existence.
This sentence exist only because *I am* aware of it.
CAN´T I WALK IN THE GARDEN?
BELIEF: Yes, I can take a walk in nature.
KNOWING: No, experience cannot walk.
There is no experience of walking.
There is no experience OF anything because there are no two things, one to experience the other.
BUT THERE ARE BOUNDARIES?
BELIEF: Yes, everything has boundaries.
KNOWING: No, *all* boundaries are always just appearances.
If you look at a table, the table isn't really there - it's just the appearance of a table.
The boundaries aren't real.
All that’s really there is awareness-experience.
*I* am everything.
WHAT IS ACTUAL EXPERIENCE?
BELIEF: What happens to me now.
KNOWING: Actual Experience means that the
SensationSightSoundThoughtTasteSmell that is known right here and now is ALL that exist.
But nothing experiences anything.
So there is no room behind the door, because there is no knowing of anything behind the door.
WHAT IS REAL?
BELIEF: Everything, everywhere is real.
KNOWING: What is *real* is not separate things like
a dog, a wall, a space, a thought, but just the experience of ColorSmellSoundTouchTasteSensation…plus a thought story about "me and my world".
IS THERE A MATERIAL WORLD "OUT THERE”?
BELIEF: Yes.
KNOWING: No, there is no external world.
There is nothing other than *this*.
There's just no way to get from *this* to "something other than this”.
I THINK THAT THERE IS A SUNRISE IN LONDON NOW?
BELIEF: Yes, that is probably correct.
KNOWING: No, there is nothing outside this experience.
HOW BIG IS THE UNIVERSE?
BELIEF: No one knows - but enormous.
KNOWING: There is no universe, *I* only know *myself*.
IS THERE AN OBJECTIVE, PHYSICAL REALITY?
BELIEF: Yes, of course there is.
KNOWING: No, that is just an idea.
Nothing has any existence apart from experience.
WHAT IS SPACE?
BELIEF: It´s what surrounds us all.
KNOWING: There is no space - only apparent space, like an apparent person or chair. The apparent space *I am* aware of right now is all the space there is.
Thinking that space is a real thing that can exist beyond awareness is the root of all the "out there" and "somewhere else" and "beyond this" ideas that make the whole objective reality theory seem to work.
BUT THE MOON IS FURTHER AWAY THAN MY HAND?
BELIEF: Yes, it´s very far away.
KNOWING: No, the moon is just a bunch of colors and so is the hand.
Both are at zero distance from *me*.
AM I JUST A LITTLE PART OF THE WHOLE OF LIFE?
BELIEF: Yes, that´s what I am. Very small and insignificant.
KNOWING: No, *this* has no parts, it in indivisible.
SURELY THERE MUST BE MORE OUT THERE SOMEWHERE?
BELIEF: Yes, I believe there is.
KNOWING: No, there is nothing beyond experience.
WHAT IS A BODY?
BELIEF: It is my flesh and blood. And I also live inside it.
KNOWING: A body is just a story about sensations.
Physical bodies do not exist as something separate. It is just a story about being a person who lives in an objective reality, on a planet called earth.
The body is an imaginary division of experience, the body doesn't have experience because it - along with everything else - IS experience.
IS A BODY REQUIRED FOR EXPERIENCE TO BE KNOWN?
BELIEF: Yes, a person experiences.
KNOWING: No, experience is self-aware.
A non- existent person sees nothing.
And nothing appears and disappears.
Experience only knows itself as experience.
And experience never comes or goes.
DO I PERCEIVE THROUGH A BODY?
BELIEF: Yes.
KNOWING: No. Thought says that the body appears to have thoughts and sensations, but experience has no eyes, no ears...
IS EXPERIENCE LIMITED TO WHAT THE BODY PERCEIVES?
BELIEF: Yes.
KNOWING: No. Nothing goes on that *I am* not aware of.
IS THERE AN OUTSIDE TO EXPERIENCE?
BELIEF: Yes.
KNOWING: No. There is only *this* experience here. There may be thoughts about "other places" but *I* don’t believe in them.
AM I NOT AWARE?
BELIEF: Yes, of course I´m aware.
KNOWING: The colors and sensations that thought labels the first person character (your name) aren’t aware of anything - but *I* am aware of them!
ARE NOT PEOPLE AWARE?
BELIEF: Yes, everyone is aware.
KNOWING: It may seem that this sentence is read by a person,
but no one is aware.
People are only experience.
It's like a reflection in a mirror - it appears, it moves and does stuff - but it's not aware that it is even appearing.
ARE THERE OTHERS?
BELIEF: Yes, there are 7 billion aware persons.
KNOWING: No, there appear to be others, but *I am* here all alone.
Experience right now is literally the one and only experience there is.
There is no experiencer - just boundless experience with no beginning or end.
If it seems like I am a person, it will seem like there are others.
BUT OTHERS ARE SURELY AWARE?
BELIEF: Yes, of course.
KNOWING: No person is aware of this sentence.
Just notice how many awarenesses are actually present.
Only One.
Just awareness.
Always only *me*.
THIS SOUNDS A BIT HEARTLESS?
BELIEF: Yes, where is the love for others?
KNOWING: Since there are no separate others, there is no one to feel sympathy with and no one feeling sympathy - but sympathy seems to exist nonetheless!
There's no need to change it or try to resist sympathy - *this* really is perfect just as it exists!
An actual 'conscious person’ isn't required at all for the whole umbrella of 'human emotions’ to exist.
IS THERE "AN EXPERIENCER” AND ”AN EXPERIENCE”?
BELIEF: Yes, there are 7 billion experiencers.
KNOWING: No, experience knows itself.
You, as a separate person, experience nothing since you are only a thought.
WHO IS DOING THINGS?
BELIEF: I am doing things.
KNOWING: No one. Since a separate self doesn´t exist, it can´t do anything.
This knowingknown that *I am* doesn´t do anything - it simply is.
There are only *apparent* happenings.
”Enlightenment” is realising that there is no doer.
SURELY THERE MUST BE AN INDIVIDUAL SOMEWHERE?
BELIEF: Yes, I am the individual person.
KNOWING: No, there are not any individual persons.
There's just Awareness existing as a myriad of apparent things - but there’s always only Undivided Awareness actually present.
CAN I CONTROL MY THOUGHTS?
BELIEF: Yes, I can decide to think positively.
KNOWING: No, there is no author of thought.
A person cannot think, because the person is a thought.
And *I* never think. *I* am aware of thought.
AM I NOT PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HAPPENS?
BELIEF: Yes, I am.
KNOWING: No, because nothing has ever happened, or will ever happen.
There are only apparent persons, no real ones.
DO I HAVE A CHOICE?
BELIEF: Yes, I can decide what to do.
KNOWING: No, because nothing happens and there is no separate person who could make decisions.
WHAT DO I HAVE CONTROL OVER?
BELIEF: What I do, what I think…
KNOWING: There is no one that can control anything.
It is all just spontaneously existing.
Can I make a sound exist or not exist? No.
Can I stop a smell from existing? No.
Did I do anything for this thought to exist? No.
WHAT ARE THINGS?
BELIEF: The world is made of solid objects.
KNOWING: There are no things.
Things are only story.
Separate objects do not really exist.
Only experience exists.
What is called "objects" are nothing but SoundSmellTasteSensationColourThought.
The only things there are, are apparent things.
WHAT ARE PROBLEMS?
BELIEF: Problems are things I have to solve.
KNOWING: A problem can never be found except
as a thought story.
There are no problems of any kind - there are only thoughts about problems.
ARE THERE SUBJECTS AND OBJECTS?
BELIEF: Yes, the world is seen by a person.
KNOWING: No, there is only *knowingknown*.
No real borders can be found in Awareness - only apparent ones.
Thought says object A is aware of object B and that *I* am object A.
But neither of those objects are present at all.
HOW ABOUT MY RELATIVES?
BELIEF: Yes, I have my family and friends.
KNOWING: No, I would have to be a person
to have a family.
*I* have never interacted with anyone. There is no one to interact with.
REALITY HAS LOTS OF COLORS?
BELIEF: Too many to count even.
KNOWING: No, reality HAS no color, it IS color.
Red is really the "knowing of red".
Without the presence of awareness (*I*), red couldn't even appear.
WHAT ARE STORIES?
BELIEF: The brain/mind creates all stories.
KNOWING: Whatever seems to disappear when there are no thoughts about it is always identifiable a story.
DOES A COLOR EXISTS BY ITSELF?
BELIEF: Yes, a color exists even if it is not seen.
KNOWING: No, a color does not exist without the knowing of it.
Actually *I*-experience cannot be divided into colors, sounds, thoughts, smells etc -
it is only a way to help deconstruct the belief in objective reality.
But those "subtle objects" aren’t real either - they are just awareness/experience/*I* in the apparent form of that object. In other words, only awareness/*I* is actually present - *I* aware of *I*, nothing else can truly be found.
IS A COLOR EXPERIENCED?
BELIEF: Yes, a color is seen by my eyes.
KNOWING: No, color is experience without see-er.
IS A SOUND EXPERIENCED?
BELIEF: Yes, a sound is heard by my ears.
KNOWING: No, sound is experience without hearer.
IS A SENSATION EXPERIENCED?
BELIEF: Yes, a sensation is felt by my body.
KNOWING: No, sensation is experience without feeler.
IS A SMELL EXPERIENCED?
BELIEF: Yes, a smell is smelled by my nose.
KNOWING: No, smell is experience without smeller.
IS A TASTE EXPERIENCED?
BELIEF: Yes, a taste is tasted by my tongue.
KNOWING: No, taste is experience without taster.
IS A THOUGHT EXPERIENCED?
BELIEF: Yes, a thought is thought by my brain.
KNOWING: No, thought is experience without thinker.
Just experience/awareness - NO EXPERIENCER!
BUT I SEE A TREE?
BELIEF: Yes I do, far away on a field.
KNOWING: No, there is no tree and field - only color experience.
No objects exist - they are just stories.
The image is the awareness of the image.
They are not separable because they are the same thing.
MANY THINGS ARE UNKNOWN TO ME?
BELIEF: Yes, I know very little.
KNOWING: No, *I* actually know everything there is.
"Not knowing something" is a thought.
The thought that something else exists that *I* am not aware of, is just a thought that *I* am aware of.
Nothing could exist separate from *me*, because *I* am existence itself!
WHERE DO THOUGHTS COME FROM?
BELIEF: Thoughts are produced in the brain.
KNOWING: Thought do not come from anywhere.
It is just here, existing right now.
It does not appear from somewhere else.
Thought is experience, not experienced.
*I* have never thought anything.
And ultimately there is no thought at all, because there is just "awareness aware of awareness".
CAN THERE BE KNOWN WITHOUT KNOWING?
BELIEF: Yes.
KNOWING: No, there is only *knowingknown*.
It is one and the same.
Could RED exist if it wasn’t known somehow?
Could RED exist all by itself just "unknown" by anything?
Or is "RED" always the same thing as "the knowing of RED"?
A thought, an itch, a taste or a smell don’t exist in themselves.
They must be known.
*THIS* is aware of *THIS*!
*I am* aware of *myself*.
WHAT ARE THOUGHTS?
BELIEF: I think - therefore I am.
KNOWING: Thought is just experience.
*I am* the sound, *I am* the image, *I am* the taste,
and *I am* this entire symphony of beingness. Including thought that say that *I am* a separate person!
Notice that *I* do not believe any thought-story - that's the heart of the whole illusion of ignorance.
*I* am aware of thought - but that is all that is going on.
DOES EVERYBODY HAS THOUGHTS?
BELIEF: Yes, thoughts are mine.
KNOWING: No one is having thoughts.
If thought-stories never existed in experience the question of others would not even arise - there would obviously only be *this* - just *I* aware of *myself*.
BUT THE CONTENT OF THOUGHT SEEMS IMPORTANT?
BELIEF: Yes, thoughts are important to the person.
KNOWING: No, thoughts are utterly unimportant.
Imagine that all thoughts disappeared, what would be left?
Just *this*!
IS THE CONTENT OF THOUGHT EXPERIENCED?
BELIEF: Yes, by me.
KNOWING: No, thought is experience.
The content of thought is never experience.
WORDS SEEM TRUE AND IMPORTANT?
BELIEF: Yes.
KNOWING: No, but words can be used as pointers.
IS SUFFERING POSSIBLE?
BELIEF: Yes.
KNOWING: No, there is no one who can suffer.
Nothing can ever truly afflict *me*.
ISN´T IT POSSIBLE TO BELIEVE SOMETHING?
BELIEF: Yes, there are many beliefs.
KNOWING: No, I have no beliefs.
*I* just know *THIS*.
ISN´T IT POSSIBLE TO IDENTIFY WITH SOMETHING?
BELIEF: Yes. With me, the separate person.
KNOWING: No. If there is only *I*, what could *I* identify with?
I EXPERIENCE MUSIC?
BELIEF: Yes, I do.
KNOWING: No, *I AM* music.
DOESN´T THE SUN EXIST EVEN WHEN I´M NOT AWARE OF IT?
BELIEF: Yes, it does. Somewhere else.
KNOWING: No, because the sun is not an object - it IS experience.
CAN I GAIN MORE CLARITY?
BELIEF: Yes, I can educate myself.
KNOWING: No, I already know *this* and *this* is all there is.
Even thoughts about being unclear.
There is just *this* - and *I* know exactly what it is because *I* am *it*.
HOW CAN I REALISE THE TRUTH?
BELIEF: Practice hard.
KNOWING: *This* does not need to be understood - just awareness actually aware of awareness.
CAN I FIND THE TRUTH THAT IS HIDDEN?
BELIEF: Yes, if I try long and hard.
KNOWING: No, because nothing is hidden.
Look at *this* right now - is there any aspect of it that *I* am not totally aware of?
CAN I WAKE UP?
BELIEF: Yes, maybe if I´m lucky and work hard.
KNOWING: No, the person doesn´t exist, so how could it wake up?
Life does not need to wake up - it is never not perfectly self-aware.
CAN ANYBODY TEACH ME HOW TO WAKE UP?
BELIEF: Yes, there are many teachers out there.
KNOWING: No, because there is nothing to understand.
Nobody could ever teach *me* about what *I am*.
All *I* actually find in the end is awareness - just *I* aware of *I*.
And *I* am already 100% perfectly aware of that.
DO I HAVE EXPERIENCES?
BELIEF: Yes, life is full of experiences.
KNOWING: No, *I AM* experience.
With no separate individuals, there are no separate experiences for those individuals to have!
BUT IT SEEMS AS THOUGH I THINK?
BELIEF: Yes, it sure does.
KNOWING: *I* do no think, *I* am just aware of thoughts that claim *I* am thinking.
Just like thought claims *I* am a person speaking.
IT SEEMS AS THOUGH I SPEAK?
BELIEF: Yes, obviously.
KNOWING: *I* do not say anything, *I* am aware of apparent people saying stuff, including the person thought claims *I* am.
Thought knows nothing about what it says, because thought, like any other appearance, is completely unaware.
AM I AWARE OF AN APPLE?
BELIEF: Yes, I can see it.
KNOWING: No, there is just experience of "red".
CAN I EXPERIENCE THE TASTE OF AN APPLE?
BELIEF: Yes, the apple tastes good.
KNOWING: No, there is just an experience of taste.
WHO IS READING THIS SENTENCE?
BELIEF: This person is reading it with my eyes.
KNOWING: No one is reading.
There is just experience of words here.
WHO IS THE OBSERVER, THE WITNESS?
BELIEF: The witness witnesses everything.
KNOWING: The witness is just a thought.
*I am* not witnessing sound - *I am* sound!
I AM DISTURBED BY EXPERIENCES.
BELIEF: Yes, many things are frustrating.
KNOWING: No, *I* don´t experience anything.
*I AM* experience and nothing can disturb me.
I WANT TO BE PEACEFUL.
BELIEF: Yes, that´s all we want.
KNOWING: *I am* already peace.
I AM JUST ONE OF MANY MANY PEOPLE AND THINGS?
BELIEF: Yes, that´s what I am.
KNOWING: No, *I* alone am and *I* alone know it.
WHAT IS SEPARATION?
BELIEF: I and all things are separate.
KNOWING: A story of separation doesn’t cause any real separation.
WHAT IS CAUSE AND EFFECT?
BELIEF: All things influence each other.
KNOWING: There is no cause and effect relationship between the appearances in the thought story.
There are not two things that can affect each other.
Thought functions in terms of cause and effect - it's built right into the structure of language.
X did Y to Z.
But in Actual Experience all appearances are actually observed to exist spontaneously - uncaused by anything prior.
TIME MOVES FROM PAST, PRESENT TO FUTURE?
BELIEF: Yes.
KNOWING: No, reality is timeless, there is only here now.
What *I* am has no past and no future.
The past exists only as a thought right now.
The future exists only as a thought right now.
ISN´T THIS THE SAME AS SOLIPSISM?
BELIEF: It certainly sounds like it.
KNOWING: No, solipsism states that "my individual,
personal mind is all that exists".
So that would require a separate person to work.
There is none.
Only experience.
WHAT ARE MEMORIES?
BELIEF: Everything that has happened in my life.
KNOWING: *I* aware of myself right here, right now.
WHAT IS ACTUALLY PRESENT RIGHT NOW?
BELIEF: I am sitting in a room, on a chair.
KNOWING: *I* aware of myself existing as an apparent person in a room.
WHAT WILL TOMORROW BRING?
BELIEF: I have no idea.
KNOWING: Tomorrow will never "bring" anything, because tomorrow is nothing more than a thought story.
Just *I* aware of myself existing as a thought about tomorrow.
WHAT IS TRUTH?
BELIEF: I am a separate, lonely person in a
hostile universe that one day is going to kill me.
KNOWING: Look at what is right now -
there is only *this* - only *I*.
Nothing is any more or less *me*.
Including the thoughts.
I AM NOT THERE YET.
BELIEF: That is sooo true.
KNOWING: This is just a thought story.
WILL I DIE ONE DAY?
BELIEF: Yes, the person will die and disappear.
KNOWING: No, there is no separate person who can die.
*I am* the whole existence, everything there is, so I myself am not mortal.
Death is just a story about appearances.
Apparent persons can appear alive or dead, but they are always just appearances.
They were never sentient or thinking thoughts or feeling pain or anything else - they just appear to awareness and that's all they do!
WHAT IS ONENESS?
BELIEF: All things are connected somehow.
KNOWING: What is present right now?
*I*.
Anything else at all?
Nope!
There - instant oneness!
WHAT WILL CHANGE IF I REALISE WHO/WHAT I AM?
BELIEF: I will be ever joyful.
KNOWING: When it becomes clear who *I am*
(that is, no person), nothing changes, because there has never been a person there in the first place.
*Right Now* *THIS* is what it is like for there to be no person present.
IS THERE ANY PURPOSE OR MEANING TO IT ALL?
BELIEF: I think so, but I don´t know what.
KNOWING: There isn´t any agenda or reason behind any particular story that arises.
Really all the stories just exists spontaneously as part of the show - they could be about Jesus, or scientology or string theory - or just the everyday view of separate objects and people walking around on the surface of a big ball of rock floating in space.
The important thing is to see that experience doesn’t believe any of the stories - whether they are very close to the truth or just batshit crazy.
Experience is just aware of them.

(Who wrote this shall remain nameless)


Warmly

nina

[thursday123]

Nina,

Thanks so much for sending this. It was very helpful indeed. Everything that's here, right now, and nothing else - that's it. I think I have a clear understanding of what to do now. I will hold every thought that pops up in front of me and see if it can be found in experience, which obviously it never can. Even something that appears to have happened a moment ago, what is there? A thought labelled memory, inferences about what that thought means (more thoughts), and nothing else to be found in experience. And obviously I'll carry on questioning whether there is a do-er of anything. There are some stubborn thoughts that are still popping up, for example 'yes there is clear experience without experiencer, but what about attention, which I use to decide what to experience more clearly?' and 'The way awareness has been hidden from me (even though it isn't really hidden at all), maybe true separate self is hidden in plain sight also'. But I will continue to look at these thoughts and see what can be found

Beanstalk

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk,

lovely!

Actually it is all about developing an inner trust.
When one is deeply identified with the judging mind that relentlessly is questioning everything -
including the validity of the direct experience – this happens mostly due to a lack of inner trust.
It might also happen due to some fear; maybe the fear of loosing the connection with others.
However – when there is no separate self – how can one be separate from anyone?

The doubts won’t change overnight; but you might see more clearly for what it is:
A distorted lens through which the world and oneself is seen.
What about to doubt your doubts and to trust more into the knowing of the heart?

Warmly

nina