Re: To see clearly so as not to have a spec of "me-ness" remaining
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:21 pm
Hi Kay,
Following are the responses.
There seems to be a thinker,seer,hearer,experiencer in thinking,seeing,hearing and in experience. This is in isolation with all other as in "me" here and the world "out there".This unquestioned assumption leads one to believe in the idea of "me".
if there is indeed a "thinker", "controller" etc, then this means I should think and control my way through life.
This inevitably leads to the conflict between the "other" and "me", as the thought divides me and others.
This "me" become the center of one's perception leading to self-centered understanding of life.
personally The illusion for "me" was two fold.
1. The "I" thought.
2. The "Sense of Self"
The thought stories around the "I" thought, when absorbed in completely, create a whole world of "me", until it is seen that the "me" was a mental chatter.without which there is no "me". The "me" i believed was just self-talk/thought stories.
The 'sense of self' is for me even deeper than than the thought stories. even after seeing that "me" was just thought stories, the sensation of me was strongly felt.There was a deep association with sense of self as "me". I did not even know that this sensation is called "Sense of self" until you mentioned the label "sense of self". Then it clicked to see that this is what I was experiencing as "me" at an intimate level, in my everyday life. This sense of me is perceived as
"Sense of Seer", "Sense of thinker" and "Sense of me". on close inspection it is seen that the sense called sense of self, is a collection of mental images ingrained from childhood, developed though self-talk etc. it is seen that the sensation named sense of self is just a sensation (thought label it as sense of self) and the appearance or disappearance of sensation is similar to any other sensation. looking closely again the "Sensation" named "Sense of self" is more of a thought story created structure. It is understood that the thought stories about "me" and the "sensation of self" continue to exist or disappear but who knows.
For "me" the shift was very gradual. I did not experience something grandeur even though "thought stories" expected it :-).
But what is noticed is a slow change in the way of life.
once it is seen that there is no control over thoughts, sensations, actions etc, there is a gradual recession of the controller,thinker and doer.there is a 'feeling' of 'freedom' and 'lightness', as the "me" gradually stops to fight against "what is" and an acceptance of 'the experience' took over.This is reflected in perceiving "others" too. when the "me" subsided, there is a greater sensitivity towards the "other" who is caught up in thought stories ("I" could see "them" in a new light) .
When "my" wife talks about her office colleagues, or blames "me" , It is understood that "she" has no control over her thoughts,sensations and emotions.which help me to listen to her and understand 'her' better. without a "me", the blame did not stand much ground.
When in meetings where "I" report my daily status, I was fearful about what other people think of me when I report my progress.or the constant feeling that whether I would be considered not intelligent by others in the meeting. but with "me" taking a backseat,the sensation and thought stories of fear,insecurity,jealousy is seen. The fear still comes up, all the sensation mentioned still happens,but somewhere there is a knowing that "all of it is just happens, and this experience is all there is and there is nobody home to control all this".This reduces the "inner conflict" to a level never known before.
"Why would the "I" thought disappear if the Santa story does not disappear after seeing through".
Then there was a thing about awareness/focus, "I" understood before that thoughts were not in "my" control. that understanding deepened (such as the non interdependency of thought and thought does not think, thought does not evoke action etc).
But when you asked whether focus/attention/awareness is in my control, it is realized that "attention (as in where and what to attend to) is also not in "my"
control. similar is the case with sensations.
if I go on like this, there were many small and subtle changes in perceptions that contributed.
The realization that all objects are a mystery (not found in AE) and the only reality is 'experience'/THIS helped too.
The realization that everything will be as it is (thoughts,sensation,emotion,clarity,whatever) except the shift in perception changed something.
it is understood that the change takes places, whenever it takes place.
when the thoughts are not 'mine', attention/awareness is not 'mine', sensation is not mine, actions are not 'mine' then freewill does not have a ground.
as you mentioned, "if you do not have a choice in what you become aware of, what is there to choose?".
if none of the above is not "mine", there is nothing which can be controlled, nor there is a controller to control.
Things happen in its own, thought appear, sensations appear, clouds appear, seasons change, typing happens.
Things work on its own. like a tree growing, like a 'hand holding an object' without "I" realizing the spacing of the label 'my hand' align exactly to the 'width' of the 'object'.When "I" look at "how the body walks", "how it sleeps and adjusts positions in sleep", and "how thought story says one thing and something entirely different action happens, there is a growing 'feeling' that everything happens its own. as you mentioned "experience which is self-conscious in itself".
in My work, a thought story says, I need to work hard today, I need to progress more. and then suddenly what happens say I spend the entire day on LU website :-).
next day another thought story comes up, I have to do something today and I am going to work today and then I chanced upon a book I am interested in drift off in to reading it. on another day when I loose the hope of finding any solution to the problem I am working on, suddenly a solution pops up and my problem is solved.
previously, I used to have a lot of internal conflict for not doing things right, not pushing hard, to think something ahead for the future etc.there is a feeling that I am somehow responsible for my life.
but without the "me", there is no-one responsible for anything. there is nothing right or wrong, nothing to push hard or not to push hard, to plan or not to plan etc.everything happens as it happens.
even though 'we' are but a single movement of an undivided whole without thought, I would like to mention the following.
To see that someone (Kay) take so much time and energy and consistently guiding for an 'unknown person' is a miracle in itself.
I did not see a single day where you did not respond when I responded to your question.
The energy and commitment you are showing is a magic in itself. it made a world of difference to "me".
Thank you so much.
Thanks
Tintu
Following are the responses.
in Actual experience, when ventured to look at the thinker,seer or experiencer behind thinking,seeing,experiencing there is no "self","me","I" found.what ever is considered "self"/"me"/"I" in closer inspection turned out to be thought stories/ mental images/ labeled sensations etc.There was never a "self" present. The confusion that there was a self is created by believing in thought stories.1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
The illusion works as follows.2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
There seems to be a thinker,seer,hearer,experiencer in thinking,seeing,hearing and in experience. This is in isolation with all other as in "me" here and the world "out there".This unquestioned assumption leads one to believe in the idea of "me".
if there is indeed a "thinker", "controller" etc, then this means I should think and control my way through life.
This inevitably leads to the conflict between the "other" and "me", as the thought divides me and others.
This "me" become the center of one's perception leading to self-centered understanding of life.
personally The illusion for "me" was two fold.
1. The "I" thought.
2. The "Sense of Self"
The thought stories around the "I" thought, when absorbed in completely, create a whole world of "me", until it is seen that the "me" was a mental chatter.without which there is no "me". The "me" i believed was just self-talk/thought stories.
The 'sense of self' is for me even deeper than than the thought stories. even after seeing that "me" was just thought stories, the sensation of me was strongly felt.There was a deep association with sense of self as "me". I did not even know that this sensation is called "Sense of self" until you mentioned the label "sense of self". Then it clicked to see that this is what I was experiencing as "me" at an intimate level, in my everyday life. This sense of me is perceived as
"Sense of Seer", "Sense of thinker" and "Sense of me". on close inspection it is seen that the sense called sense of self, is a collection of mental images ingrained from childhood, developed though self-talk etc. it is seen that the sensation named sense of self is just a sensation (thought label it as sense of self) and the appearance or disappearance of sensation is similar to any other sensation. looking closely again the "Sensation" named "Sense of self" is more of a thought story created structure. It is understood that the thought stories about "me" and the "sensation of self" continue to exist or disappear but who knows.
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.3) How does it feel to see this?
For "me" the shift was very gradual. I did not experience something grandeur even though "thought stories" expected it :-).
But what is noticed is a slow change in the way of life.
once it is seen that there is no control over thoughts, sensations, actions etc, there is a gradual recession of the controller,thinker and doer.there is a 'feeling' of 'freedom' and 'lightness', as the "me" gradually stops to fight against "what is" and an acceptance of 'the experience' took over.This is reflected in perceiving "others" too. when the "me" subsided, there is a greater sensitivity towards the "other" who is caught up in thought stories ("I" could see "them" in a new light) .
When "my" wife talks about her office colleagues, or blames "me" , It is understood that "she" has no control over her thoughts,sensations and emotions.which help me to listen to her and understand 'her' better. without a "me", the blame did not stand much ground.
When in meetings where "I" report my daily status, I was fearful about what other people think of me when I report my progress.or the constant feeling that whether I would be considered not intelligent by others in the meeting. but with "me" taking a backseat,the sensation and thought stories of fear,insecurity,jealousy is seen. The fear still comes up, all the sensation mentioned still happens,but somewhere there is a knowing that "all of it is just happens, and this experience is all there is and there is nobody home to control all this".This reduces the "inner conflict" to a level never known before.
As mentioned before, it happened gradually. The first with the expectation, where "I" was expecting the "Self" to disappear, but you mentioned that4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
"Why would the "I" thought disappear if the Santa story does not disappear after seeing through".
Then there was a thing about awareness/focus, "I" understood before that thoughts were not in "my" control. that understanding deepened (such as the non interdependency of thought and thought does not think, thought does not evoke action etc).
But when you asked whether focus/attention/awareness is in my control, it is realized that "attention (as in where and what to attend to) is also not in "my"
control. similar is the case with sensations.
if I go on like this, there were many small and subtle changes in perceptions that contributed.
The realization that all objects are a mystery (not found in AE) and the only reality is 'experience'/THIS helped too.
The realization that everything will be as it is (thoughts,sensation,emotion,clarity,whatever) except the shift in perception changed something.
it is understood that the change takes places, whenever it takes place.
The 'decision-thought' appears like any other thought. it appears when it appears. so decision happens.5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice, and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give an example from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
when the thoughts are not 'mine', attention/awareness is not 'mine', sensation is not mine, actions are not 'mine' then freewill does not have a ground.
as you mentioned, "if you do not have a choice in what you become aware of, what is there to choose?".
if none of the above is not "mine", there is nothing which can be controlled, nor there is a controller to control.
Things happen in its own, thought appear, sensations appear, clouds appear, seasons change, typing happens.
Things work on its own. like a tree growing, like a 'hand holding an object' without "I" realizing the spacing of the label 'my hand' align exactly to the 'width' of the 'object'.When "I" look at "how the body walks", "how it sleeps and adjusts positions in sleep", and "how thought story says one thing and something entirely different action happens, there is a growing 'feeling' that everything happens its own. as you mentioned "experience which is self-conscious in itself".
in My work, a thought story says, I need to work hard today, I need to progress more. and then suddenly what happens say I spend the entire day on LU website :-).
next day another thought story comes up, I have to do something today and I am going to work today and then I chanced upon a book I am interested in drift off in to reading it. on another day when I loose the hope of finding any solution to the problem I am working on, suddenly a solution pops up and my problem is solved.
There is no-one/no-body responsible for anything. as noted before if "thoughts","sensation","awareness" are not owned,controlled and happens on its own, responsibility is a thought story.b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
previously, I used to have a lot of internal conflict for not doing things right, not pushing hard, to think something ahead for the future etc.there is a feeling that I am somehow responsible for my life.
but without the "me", there is no-one responsible for anything. there is nothing right or wrong, nothing to push hard or not to push hard, to plan or not to plan etc.everything happens as it happens.
This exploration is something happened out of nowhere. while reading some quora answer someone mentioned the LU link.6) Anything to add?
even though 'we' are but a single movement of an undivided whole without thought, I would like to mention the following.
To see that someone (Kay) take so much time and energy and consistently guiding for an 'unknown person' is a miracle in itself.
I did not see a single day where you did not respond when I responded to your question.
The energy and commitment you are showing is a magic in itself. it made a world of difference to "me".
Thank you so much.
Thanks
Tintu