Falling into

[Cloudberry]

No no!
All is good.
It is in fact intended, that we stick together here until all unclarities and all questions have subsided.
There is no hurry.
Let us simply keep talking and enjoying this as long as it takes.

Thank you. This attitude really helps

Your update yesterday was great. I've been reading it and looking into it.

And what in direct experience makes a thought appear as if it was true?
Is it more than -again- thought?
More than thought "A" appearing and thought "B" also appearing, telling/giving the sense of: "Thought 'A' is true"?
Can this be observed?

This seems to be the area to look into. I've not had an experience of an aha of seeing thought A appearing and thought B also appearing , giving the sense that thouA is true.

I'm sure it's happening all the time, it just needs to be deen. I'll have plenty of opportunity I'm sure :-)

Can "I" be either competent or incompetent?
What "I" exactly can be competent or incompetent?
This separate entity "I" does not exist. It is just thought telling a story about an entity "I", which is sometimes competent and sometimes incompetent.
Can you see that?

Logically I get it but I've still to see this in action. It's starting to be seen. Really it's all thought. I am just a thought. How can a thought be competent / incompetent. I love that. Will explore more.

There is a sense of another layer of thought being there.

I was going to say that I wasn't aware of, but I don't exist so the I that wasn't aware is simply the thought layer that I wasn't aware of.

What I am trying to say is the I that is writing this is just a thought.

The I that has been previously identified with is just another thought.

This sense of I is just thought. But how to actually wake up finally to that. I guess direct and honest seeing until it is seen clearly.

Looking continues

Spaciousness today and the last few days

[Matthew]

What I am trying to say is the I that is writing this is just a thought.
The I that has been previously identified with is just another thought.

Good observations here and overall!

I am just a thought.

I AM just a thought?
Or
I IS just a thought?

I don't exist

I DON'T exist?
Or
I DOESN'T exist?

Spaciousness today and the last few days

Yeah just relax. It is falling into place by itself.
All we're doing here is adding a little bit of tinder to the fire here and there.

But how to actually wake up finally to that.

What is not awake?

[Cloudberry]

I AM just a thought?
Or
I IS just a thought?

This was a wow moment. A subtle language change but a huge change in what it means.

I DON'T exist?
Or
I DOESN'T exist?

What is not awake?

These pointers are amazing !!

Will take a little time to look into them and report back

Thank you so much

🙏

[Matthew]

You're welcome

Take what time is needed.
Looking forward to your report!

[Cloudberry]

Hoping you are well?

Still pretty spacious here.

But still an identification with thought happening.

An expectation to see through this illusion permanently.

Have been reading back through the thread which has been helpful. Stop, go blank and look.

All that I find is thought

Feel a little like a dog chasing its tail :-)

[Matthew]

I'm fine, thanks!

So let's just do a little back and forth!
Drop any expectation coming up with a question.
Follow the pointers, answer from direct experience.

Look at your present experience, at all what's here now and tell me please:

An expectation to see through this illusion permanently.

What is an illusion?
What can be found when looking for that?

[Cloudberry]

Drop any expectation coming up with a question.
Follow the pointers, answer from direct experience.

Look at your present experience, at all what's here now:

Dropping any expectations. Answering from direct experience. This gather's the attention into the direct experience.

This resonates. After all it's all there is.

An expectation to see through this illusion permanently.
What is an illusion?
What can be found when looking for that?

Direct sensory experience, sounds, smell, taste, touch, sight, feeling all of this feels authentic and real. This fades and attention drifts into thoughts about, anything really. This carried away and belief in thinking is the illusion.

[Matthew]

Direct sensory experience, sounds, smell, taste, touch, sight, feeling all of this feels authentic and real.

Cannot thought at face value also be experienced just as directly as these other aspects?



One layer deeper:

This carried away and belief in thinking is the illusion.

For a belief to truly exist, there must be something believing.
What believes?
Look at that, what believes in thinking.
What can be found? Some actual thing or some actual one?
Or just more thoughts?
Can a thought believe something?
What believes?

[Cloudberry]

Cannot thought at face value also be experienced just as directly as these other aspects?

Yes, definitely. Thoughts can be seen to arise and pass. It's also possible to look back and see the thoughts that were just thought. In that moment it feels like there is no thought.

What believes?

Look at that, what believes in thinking.

Well, it's always felt like me I guess. As I sit here watching the thought stream flow along something is aware of thoughts. It's like there is a seeing of thoughts and then being in the thought and in this moment the greater direct experience is lost. What thinks?

I'll look into the question, what believes, real time without "thinking" about it or analysing but just looking.

Thank you again for patience

Huge gratitude

[Matthew]

So what is evidently here while observing thoughts.
What is here is thought and an observing of thought.

Is there also a "something" that is doing the observing?
Where would that be? What would that be?

How this "something" that is doing the observing experienced?
Is it not just another thought when looking at it?
Can one thought observe another?


There is observing of thought.
Is a "something" needed for observing to happen?

[Cloudberry]

Hi Matthew

I've been taking some time to look into these questions as they are really good and feels like it is getting to the core of the matter.

Is there also a "something" that is doing the observing?
Where would that be? What would that be?

How this "something" that is doing the observing experienced?
Is it not just another thought when looking at it?

So there is clear seeing of thoughts. That's clear. Where it gets murky is what is seeing the thoughts.
There has been this sense that it might be a thought running at a deep sub layer, constantly on, constantly referencing the experience to the story of I. It's like holding the story together, not in the details but in the larger framework of say, it's Friday, I work here, I live here, etc

Sitting here, writing this, there is a presence of thought, a me thought, an I thought. It feels the body, knows what day it is, knows if happy of sad, hungry or full etc.

Not sure what to do with this. Can it be stopped or seen through. I'm not sure what is real right now

[Cloudberry]

Don't worry. All is great. This LOOK ING is amazing.

Where does awareness stop and thought begin?

[Matthew]

Very good observations!

constantly referencing the experience to the story of I

See it like a little data paket made of thought which is always attached to every aspect of experience.
The content of this paket is either "me" or "not me".
That's it. Not too subtle when looking at it.

Where does awareness stop and thought begin?

Is there a separation between the knowing of a thought and the thought?

Does a thought exist without the knowing of it?

Can knowing ever exist without the known (its conent)

Is there a separation between the knowing of colour and colour?

[Cloudberry]

Is there a separation between the knowing of colour and colour?

Knowing of colour is instant. Labelling of name blue, red follows.

Can knowing ever exist without the known (its conent)

No

Is there a separation between the knowing of a thought and the thought?

No separation

Sometimes it seems possible to be lost in thought and not have awareness of it.

What is fundamental in my understanding of awareness is it is always there. Awareness becomes aware of data from the sense doors and the mind, thoughts. So awareness is subject and object is a sound, a thought, a sight, a smell, a taste, a sensation. This data is automatically known by awareness prior to thought label being applied to it such as awareness of a sound of a footstep is heard and known then a thought label or interpretation is applied, footsteps, women's high heels, noisy, walking quickly, where are they going, story, story etc.

Not to get to technical but this is my experience and this seems an important area. Riding that wave of experience prior to application of story. The story being applied is also known. I wonder how much of this can be strippd away.

See it like a little data paket made of thought which is always attached to every aspect of experience.
The content of this paket is either "me" or "not me".
That's it. Not too subtle when looking at it.

Nice. I will look into this.

Thank you.

[Matthew]

This is going in a very good direction!
And yes, it is a very important area.

I wonder how much of this can be strippd away.

Let's find out and enjoy!

So awareness is subject and object is a sound, a thought, a sight, a smell, a taste, a sensation.

This is the general assumption.
But is it true?

awareness of a sound of a footstep is heard and known

Yes. In truth, sound is not even heard before knowing. Sound is simply known.

Where is the knowing of the sound while it occurs?
Is the knowing here and the sound there?

Is the knowing over here and the sound over there?
Or is the knowing with the sound?

What is this sense of subject-object-split made of?
Can it be found in naked experience?
Or is it maybe also just a thought attached to experience?

Can a real subject be found in actual experience?


Have a look at these questions and then we'll procede further.