The Gate

The label ‘painful’ is AE of thought and not the AE of painful
The sensation labelled ‘painful’ is AE of sensation and not the AE of painful
The image labelled as ‘body/me’ is AE of colour and not the AE of painful.
So the AE of ‘painful’ is thought. Thought points to the sensation and labels it painful.
Can you see this?

I can see that 'painful' is a label. However, I noticed that, if the pain is strong, I get away from it, the reaction is before thought (e.g. finger on the flame). If it's not that strong, there's tension in the body. Yes they are labels, but the sensation of pain (and yes the AE cannot be described in words, hence we can use the label 'pain'), feels different from, say, the sensation of just tapping the keys.

Where is the ‘you’ that is in the sensation itself and wants to move away from it? I want you to look at the sensation very carefully and tell me where you are found in the sensation and if you can find anyone/anything in the sensation or behind the sensation.

There's no 'you' as such in the sensation itself, if it's bearable enough to stay with it. If not, the 'you' becomes that which flinches away from the pain. So there's identification with that.

It is simply sensation. Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is pressure?
What is it exactly that labels the sensation "pressure"?

Thinking labels sensations. What I noticed is that sensations are different, like colours are different etc. The AE of this difference cannot be put into words (the same way u can't describe the sound of a wave, or the chirping of birds etc.)Thinking overlays these differences, by giving them labels.

Describe to me, as if I was blind, the colour red.
Describe to me, as if I was deaf, the sound ‘waves crashing against the shoreline’.
Describe to me taste labelled ‘ toast’. Not what toast is made from, but the taste ‘toast’ itself.
Can you describe raw experience at all?

No you can't. But you experience all these phenomena as different.

Love,

Val

Hello Val,

Can you please answer the question you missed. Once you have answered that, then I will respond.

Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

So the sensation of myself re. location is far more fuzzy then if I look at myself in the mirror, there are parts in the body I don't feel, particularly if there's no pressure e.g. no skin on the chair. The trouble is if I point with the finger

No, I don’t want you to look in the mirror, I just want you to close your eyes and point to where you think you are in the body and then tell me where you are pointing.

Love, Kay

Hi Kay,

No, I don’t want you to look in the mirror, I just want you to close your eyes and point to where you think you are in the body and then tell me where you are pointing.

At the first the reaction was "I can't do that, because I am not to be found in the body".
Then I let go of that and just asked the question. The finger pointed at the face, between my eyes.

Love,

Val

Hey Val,

For this post I will stay focused on sensation and the idea of difference. Thank you very much for answering where you thought the "I" was in the body...we will look at that next.

The label ‘painful’ is AE of thought and not the AE of painful
The sensation labelled ‘painful’ is AE of sensation and not the AE of painful
The image labelled as ‘body/me’ is AE of colour and not the AE of painful.
So the AE of ‘painful’ is thought. Thought points to the sensation and labels it painful.
Can you see this?

I can see that 'painful' is a label. However, I noticed that, if the pain is strong, I get away from it, the reaction is before thought (e.g. finger on the flame).

What is the actual experience of the word/thought “I”? What does the word/thought “I” point to? Does it point to smell, taste, sensation, colour, sound or does it point to thought?

For every thought that comes up, and to determine whether it is referring to actual experience or whether it is pure fantasy, replace the thought with “blahblahblah” and check whether what it was referring to remains.

So, when the sensation labelled “pain” appears and with it a thought, for example, “My back is feeling very painful” (or whatever the pain thought is), I want you to replace that thought with the words “blah blah blah”. What remains? I just want a simple answer from actual experience please.

If it's not that strong, there's tension in the body. Yes they are labels, but the sensation of pain (and yes the AE cannot be described in words, hence we can use the label 'pain'), feels different from, say, the sensation of just tapping the keys.

Without THOUGHT, Val how would that be known?

The label “pain” does not describe the sensation. The label “pain” is simply the AE of thought and is not the AE of “pain”. The word “pain” is thought trying to describe sensation and sensation ie experience is indescribable.

“I am in pain" is the thought. The ensuing thoughts of what that means is the content of that thought. Actual experience is everything, except the CONTENT of thought, because thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience.
So thoughts, in and of themselves, do not contain any experience, if they did then the word ‘pain’ would feel painful everytime it appeared, and the thought ‘hot’ would feel hot everytime it appeared.

So, let's look at the idea of sensation comparison. Take your time doing this exercise.

If you don’t think about it, do you know that the sensation is something called ‘pain’?
Is there any inherent pain in the sensation itself?

Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘pain’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?

Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in the body, labelled ‘pain’…what is the actual difference between them?

Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’ (which is thought trying to describe experience) but apart from that – is there any difference?

Where is the ‘you’ that is in the sensation itself and wants to move away from it? I want you to look at the sensation very carefully and tell me where you are found in the sensation and if you can find anyone/anything in the sensation or behind the sensation.

There's no 'you' as such in the sensation itself, if it's bearable enough to stay with it. If not, the 'you' becomes that which flinches away from the pain. So there's identification with that.

There is no ‘you’ period! You are doing this exploration to see that there is no ‘you’, but it doesn’t matter what I point to, you insist that there is a ‘you’. Actual experience is SOUND, SMELL, TASTE, SENSATION, THOUGHT, COLOUR…where in these can an “I/me” be found?

It is simply sensation. Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is pressure?
What is it exactly that labels the sensation "pressure"?

Thinking labels sensations. What I noticed is that sensations are different, like colours are different etc. The AE of this difference cannot be put into words (the same way u can't describe the sound of a wave, or the chirping of birds etc.)Thinking overlays these differences, by giving them labels.

I want you to sit in a quiet room. Then listen to the sounds. Then choose two sounds. IGNORE ALL THOUGHTS AND LABELS because they are going to point to a story and just stick to the actual experience of sound.
How, without thought could they be possibly be known as difference sounds?

With love, Kay

What is the actual experience of the word/thought “I”? What does the word/thought “I” point to? Does it point to smell, taste, sensation, colour, sound or does it point to thought?

The AE of moving away from something occurs before "I" arises. "I" just move away the finger from the flame. It's not like the thought arises "I must move my finger away or I will burn myself". I am using I as a label here - this body that moves.

So, when the sensation labelled “pain” appears and with it a thought, for example, “My back is feeling very painful” (or whatever the pain thought is), I want you to replace that thought with the words “blah blah blah”. What remains? I just want a simple answer from actual experience please.

Tension.

If you don’t think about it, do you know that the sensation is something called ‘pain’?
Is there any inherent pain in the sensation itself?

No, I can call it "flower" or anything else. But the AE is still different from AE of not experiencing pain.

Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’ (which is thought trying to describe experience) but apart from that – is there any difference?

yes, there's a difference. The feet are tingling, the body part labelled 'pain' feels contracted. Tingling and contraction are labels themselves, but the sensations are different. It's like the sound of the seagulls an that of ravens they are both sounds, and without thinking I wouldn't know they come fro two birds, nor I could describe the sounds with language, but they sound different.

How, without thought could they be possibly be known as difference sounds?

I wrote the example above before getting to your last question.
In answer to that...there's sound continuously changing. The difference comes up immediately though, it's just a sea of sound.

Love,

Val

Hello Val,

I don't think you are ready to look and to actually see through the illusory self. It takes a willingness and and an openness to question everything you think you know and believe - and you are not willing to do that. No matter what I point at, you aren't even willing to look at it differently. We are going round in circles. I can only point but you have to look and I have tried many different ways of pointing to start to get you to look but you aren't looking.

I suggest you go back to the very beginning of the thread and read everything. You have had two guides trying to point to get you to look and you just won't look.

I would like you to answer the following questions for yourself, so you can actually see if you are really ready because you somehow I don't think you are being honest with yourself in your readiness to actually LOOK.

What are you looking for at LU?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?

With love, Kay