Stuck in the mud

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

I am very happy to wait when you have other commitments to attend to.

I remind myself this is a thought and that drawing round my hand just happens and I don't know how I do it other than it just does.
Can you spot an assumption 'beneath' the doubting thought?

The assumption could be that because I can't find a 'self' it doesn't mean that thoughts won't continue to arise. Or it could just be a habit of believing the thought, instead of thought and doubt arising with nothing more to it.

How can the wind blow, if nobody is blowing the wind?

Wind is just a name for air moving about at different speeds. There is no one blowing because the wind doesn't need a somebody to blow it. The strength and speed of the wind is determined by other factors which happen because of changes in atmosphere and pressure. Many changing conditions give rise to the nature of wind. There is no one 'wind' controller in charge.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

"how did your draw around your hand if no 'self' was directing this"

You don't seem to be able to *find* any central 'self' directing the drawing, yet there is the lingering sense that it must be needed...

If wind can blow, without anyone doing the blowing, why does drawing need a 'self' to direct it?

Is this any more than a *linguistic convention*?

We say "the wind blows" even though in reality there is only blowing... it is just how we use language.

Do we say "I drew around my hand" even though in reality there was only drawing? Drawing is a complex process involving various senses, muscles, awareness and so on ... but does there need to an "I" directing it any more than the wind needs anything to be blowing it?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

Do we say "I drew around my hand" even though in reality there was only drawing? Drawing is a complex process involving various senses, muscles, awareness and so on ... but does there need to an "I" directing it any more than the wind needs anything to be blowing it?

I do see there is only drawing but because the drawing involved my hand doing the drawing, I had a lingering doubt that a 'self' was directing it. I have only realised this now as I type, because when I was walking this afternoon there was only walking and so that has to be true of drawing, there is only drawing.

I was also aware today that when fear arose in response to something some one said to me, followed by sadness and unpleasant burning sensations in my legs, I thought the fear was being propelled by a 'self' because I didn't want to be feeling fear. As I recall this now I realised that getting rid of fear is like getting rid of 'self'. Just like 'self' there is no fear to be got rid of, rather to be aware of fear arising physically alongside thoughts. And these like 'self' are not to be got rid of but to be seen as feelings and thoughts, all be it complex ones.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

when I was walking this afternoon there was only walking and so that has to be true of drawing, there is only drawing

Good stuff!

This is a good deduction based on what you've noticed about walking - it would be even better to see whether this is also confirmed in direct experience. Could you give the exercise another go? (Or, if you prefer, some other activity that would be considered to require 'control', like peeling an apple.)

Is a "doing self" to be found outside of thought? Is there 'control'? Is there a 'controller'?

I thought the fear was being propelled by a 'self' because I didn't want to be feeling fear.

Very interesting.

It reminds me hos, long before natural forces like the weather were understood, people believed them to be driven by divine beings.... On some level, our go-to explanation for anything we observe is that some kind of "self" must be making it happen by an act of will!

As I recall this now I realised that getting rid of fear is like getting rid of 'self'. Just like 'self' there is no fear to be got rid of, rather to be aware of fear arising physically alongside thoughts. And these like 'self' are not to be got rid of but to be seen as feelings and thoughts, all be it complex ones.

Wow, yes, that is quite a shift in perspective!

Has there been any notable fear arising since then? If so, did you assume it to be driven by some 'self', or was it just witnessed as feelings and thoughts?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

Or, if you prefer, some other activity that would be considered to require 'control', like peeling an apple

.)

The activity I choose was writing. My hand knows what to do but then thought comes in to say “your learn’t to write and so there must be a ‘self’ that learn’t this”. Is a ‘self’ learning to write I ask myself? If there is ‘no self’ who learn’t to write? But this is just thoughts and doubts. There is a ‘me’ doing the writing and a ‘self’ is the only way I can explain it. Lots of different actions involved in writing. There is thinking involved and physical hand movements that I learn’t, just as I learn’t to type. The thoughts have become ‘self’ but I do know that thoughts are just thoughts.

Is a "doing self" to be found outside of thought? Is there 'control'? Is there a 'controller'

There is not a ‘doing self’ but there is a sense of ‘me’ experiencing writing, walking, thinking etc. The ‘me’ has become a self.

Has there been any notable fear arising since then? If so, did you assume it to be driven by some 'self', or was it just witnessed as feelings and thoughts?

There has been fear arising. I did interpret this to be a ‘self’that was driving the fear and only later that I questioned this. It seems to be still happening automatically. It’s like experience gets stuck to a ‘self’ rather than the direct experience because even the direct experience feels like a ‘self’. I feel confused and will stop now.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

There is a ‘me’ doing the writing and a ‘self’ is the only way I can explain it.

Why explain anything?

What would happen if you just stuck to what had been discovered in experience?

I did interpret this to be a ‘self’that was driving the fear and only later that I questioned this. It seems to be still happening automatically.

Well, yes, it is habitual at this stage. The habit will almost certainly continue to arise for the time being

However, it is possible to notice it for what it is immediately afterwards, and to get a glimpse into the process that has just happened.

Having noticed that a habitual projection of the idea 'self' has just happened, when you consider the experience, is it (as you put it earlier) "seen as feelings and thoughts"?

Once you are completely confident of what has been observed in direct experience, then these eruptions of habit will become more and more obviously deluded, undermining their power. Which points us back to the questions I asked at the start of this post - if you are sure of what you have observed, why get involved in explanation?

Perry

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

Is everything OK?

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

I checked every day since Thursday last week but nothing was showing. So I am glad you made contact as I am keen to get going again. Not sure why the notification didn't come through or that it wasn't showing in the post section.

Best wishes
Diane

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

Why explain anything? What would happen if you just stuck to what had been discovered in experience?

That is an interesting question 'why do I have to explain anything?' I have been thinking about this but I don't have an answer and if I don't have an answer then surely there is no reason to have to explain it during experience or after! Can it be as simple as that?

An uncomfortable sensation has just surfaced along with the thought that wanting an explanation is keeping the 'self' going, or a belief that a 'self' is needed to keep going, so that I know who I am, so I can recognise me. So this is fear which is a feeling and doesn't need a 'self' to either experience it or it explain it.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

I hope your notifications are working again now! You might need to scroll to the bottom of the page and click on the 'spanner' icon to subscribe again....

I love your answers!

wanting an explanation is keeping the 'self' going, or a belief that a 'self' is needed to keep going, so that I know who I am, so I can recognise me

Remember how we looked into the stories involving the character "me, Diane"?

Are 'explanations' another type of story?

Do all these stories help to maintain the a mentally constructed idea of 'self'?

Without these stories, without this mentally constructed idea, what is left of 'self'?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

I hope the notifications arrive now as I have clicked on the scanner - top option. If not I will do it again.

I do think these explanations are another type of story. This morning I thought I ‘ought’ to do something and I paused and thought who is saying this ‘ought’ its not a ‘self’ demanding that I do this but just a thought. So I decided that I didn’t need to pay any attention to this. The ‘ought’ thought did make me feel heavy, but as soon as I decided I didn’t need to pay any attention to it I felt a sense of relief. I decided later that I would do the thing that I ‘ought’ to do but there was no ‘ought’ this time I just did it. The thing I didn’t want to do was because I wasn’t feeling very well, I had had a very bad nightmare and not a lot of sleep. The nightmare although the worst for a long time was just a nightmare that I can’t do anything about and although unpleasant I was not in danger when I woke up as it wasn’t real (well in my experience asleep it was as real as anything but no more real than eating ice cream). So even when I did the ‘ought’ thing without the ‘ought’ but still feeling unwell I did it but not from a ‘self’ who was directing me. I just did it not feeling well.

So this ‘self’ I think is only in control because I believe my thoughts which turn into stories and as it turns out these stories perpetuate a ‘self’ which isn’t really real. Without the stories and explanation there is ‘no self’ unless I turn it into a ‘self’ all being unwittingly.

Sorry if this is ramble but I felt I had to write it up before I lost it.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

OK, great stuff!

I did it but not from a ‘self’ who was directing me

it sounds like this imaginary 'self' has been a bit of a bully in the past!

So this ‘self’ I think is only in control because I believe my thoughts which turn into stories and as it turns out these stories perpetuate a ‘self’ which isn’t really real. Without the stories and explanation there is ‘no self’

very well observed

there is ‘no self’ unless I turn it into a ‘self’

this sounds like 'self' can be created, so it is something that is sometimes there and sometimes not....

what 'self' is really there if a story has been turned into a 'self'?

best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

What 'self' is really there if a story has been turned into a 'self'?

There is no ‘self’ only a story about a ‘self’ which is sometimes there and sometimes not. It’s not there now but the habit of ‘self’ still comes and goes. As I sit typing I understand more fully that there is no ‘self’ but doubtful thoughts arise that if I new that there is no ‘self’ I would feel different, something dramatic would have happened and I would no for sure. But this is another story I have constructed that something dramatic has to occur to really know there is no ‘self’. So it’s a habit of making a story out of a thought and believing the story. Although I no there is no ‘self’ it seems to come and go.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

doubtful thoughts arise that if I new that there is no ‘self’ I would feel different, something dramatic would have happened and I would no for sure. But this is another story I have constructed that something dramatic has to occur to really know there is no ‘self’. So it’s a habit of making a story out of a thought and believing the story.

"But this is another story" - great, yes!

It is excellent that this story-making process is becoming so much clearer.

As we have discussed before, seeing this won't mean the immediate, abrupt end of all story making. However, seeing this IS a key to becoming free from the process. Every time a story is seen for what it is, the insight becomes a little deeper, and the story-making process becomes a little less compelling.

So do continue to notice stories for what they are, both during day-to-day life, and also during any time you might put aside to meditate.

I feel we have reached a patch of level ground .... There is definitely more work we can do together (and there is also ongoing work you can do on your own, noting stories as stories) but it is not obvious which direction to go in.

I would normally go back to the beginning at this stage, and see what comes up, but perhaps you know what you'd like to look into next?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

I will continue to notice stories day to day.

When I woke up this morning a thought arose ‘there is no self’ and then the same thought again. I was sure that because it was a repeating thought then ‘I’ must be putting it there and that ‘I’ was a ‘me’ because I could tell my mind to repeat the phrase “there is no self”. And if I was repeating that thought then it must be a ‘self’ directing my mind to repeat the sentence. I have been pondering this. No matter how many times I say to myself “there is no self” is it a thought or is it just words in my head? So have I now constructed a whole story around a thought ‘there is no self’. I could have just noticed the thought and let it go. When I pick up a cup I don’t have to say “pick up that cup” in my mind, I just pick up the cup. So noticing the thought ‘there is no self’ needs nothing more than to be noticed.

I do feel there is more work to be done together but I am not sure what direction to go in. One thing that came to mind was to do with the ‘self’ causing unnecessary suffering. You mentioned bully when I noticed the thought ‘ought’. Although uncomfortable that was helpful, because the ‘ought’ thought was causing unnecessary stress. But I am happy to be guided by you.

Best wishes
Diane