The Gate

Hi Wesley,

No, it's only ever a thought,

Do you expect something to change as a result of seeing this? If so, what?

I feel this is more of an intellectual conclusion rather than actual seeing. I still feel like a solid person, sitting here - I go to direct experience, sight of computer, clock ticking, dog snoring and sensation of warmth / pressure, plus thoughts that seeing still hasn't happened - only thoughts but they are somehow being believed, this causes sadness and a feeling of hopelessness. I want to see this clearly as just a story but still don't.
Hug,
Nina

Hi Nina,

I still feel like a solid person, sitting here

What is wrong with this? Do you expect this to shift or change into something else?

In the meantime, I have an exercise for looking at thoughts, and I think this will be helpful for where you seem to be stuck.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, close the eyes and just notice thoughts and do this several times throughout the day and then do the exercise throughout the day as per instructions below.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts.
Looking how they come and go.
And observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how it goes :)

Big hug,
Wesley

Hi Wesley,

I still feel like a solid person, sitting here

What is wrong with this? Do you expect this to shift or change into something else?

Haha there must be some sneaky expectations lurking somewhere...I'll have a look.
Thank you for the thought exercise, it's exactly what's needed - there's massive resistance to it, I keep trying to do it and finding myself off doing different things. This suggests that it's what needs to be looked most at in order to stop believing thoughts and be able to watch them. I WILL persevere with this and will get back to you in a couple of days with the results.
Have a good weekend,
Massive hug,
Nina

Hi Nina,

Haha there must be some sneaky expectations lurking somewhere...I'll have a look.
Thank you for the thought exercise, it's exactly what's needed - there's massive resistance to it, I keep trying to do it and finding myself off doing different things. This suggests that it's what needs to be looked most at in order to stop believing thoughts and be able to watch them. I WILL persevere with this and will get back to you in a couple of days with the results.
Have a good weekend,

I'm eager to hear what you find :).

In the meantime, I am just curious -

I still feel like a solid person, sitting here

does this mean you are a separate you? Is the feeling of being a solid person actually being a separate me/I?

Sending a big hug,
Wesley

Hi Wesley,
sorry for the delay, the phone line is down and the internet is barely working, which is a good reminder of 'no control'. the frustration passed quite quickly when I accepted that all that can be done is to wait for it to be fixed at the end of the week.
I'm finding the thought exercise really difficult - I either put it off or get distracted into following the thoughts, I am still persevering as it seems like thought is putting up a fight to not be seen through. I've tried writing the thoughts down as a way of not engaging with them and also just watching the thoughts as often as possible while going about daily life, but it is a really big struggle to remember. I need to learn how to disengage from thoughts - the mind likes to be busy the whole time, reading, watching stuff etc, which is why I've never been able to meditate. I will keep up with this though, as I reckon it's important and the occasional times when the gap is observed are peaceful.

I still feel like a solid person, sitting here

does this mean you are a separate you? Is the feeling of being a solid person actually being a separate me/I?

No, it's just a feeling. Over the last few days, when I close my eyes and just feel the body the sensations don't have identifiable locations, as I sit at the table I check out the AE of the legs and there's just a feeling of warmth and no location, which feels a bit weird.
Thanks very much for your help and perseverance,
Nina

Hi Nina,

I am still persevering as it seems like thought is putting up a fight to not be seen through. I've tried writing the thoughts down as a way of not engaging with them

Perhaps it seems thoughts put up a fight, because you are trying to disengage from them?

Please very carefully explain the process of how to disengage from a thought, as if it were a manual :)

I need to learn how to disengage from thoughts

Who or what is this 'I' that will disengage from thoughts?

Can you find any boundary between a 'you' and between 'thoughts'?

Big hug,
Wesley

Hi Wesley,

Please very carefully explain the process of how to disengage from a thought, as if it were a manual :)

Hmm, it would be watching thoughts without getting absorbed in their stories. Notice a thought is happening and let it pass without being swept away by a whole stream of other thoughts. As there is no control over thoughts I don't suppose this is actually possible.

I need to learn how to disengage from thoughts

Who or what is this 'I' that will disengage from thoughts?
Can you find any boundary between a 'you' and between 'thoughts'?

No there's no boundary between me and the thoughts. Of course - there's no 'I' there's just thoughts...
Big hug back,
Nina

Hi Nina,

Great answers :). You are discovering more and more, stick with it.

Hmm, it would be watching thoughts without getting absorbed in their stories. Notice a thought is happening and let it pass without being swept away by a whole stream of other thoughts. As there is no control over thoughts I don't suppose this is actually possible.

If you notice thoughts and then eventually get swept away by one - does what's happening go away or stop happening? Do the sounds cease, do the sensations go away, do the color and shapes you perceive stop?

No there's no boundary between me and the thoughts. Of course - there's no 'I' there's just thoughts...

There's no 'boundary' or there's no 'me', or both? What could a boundary be like in your direct experience? What could a self be like?

Hug,
Wesley

Thanks Wesley, I will definitely stick with it!

If you notice thoughts and then eventually get swept away by one - does what's happening go away or stop happening? Do the sounds cease, do the sensations go away, do the color and shapes you perceive stop?

Whatever is happening still happens regardless of thought.

No there's no boundary between me and the thoughts. Of course - there's no 'I' there's just thoughts...

There's no 'boundary' or there's no 'me', or both? What could a boundary be like in your direct experience? What could a self be like?

This was a breakthrough, on looking for a boundary between 'me' and thoughts it was clearly seen that there is no me, it is all just thoughts. The self is made entirely of thought - it was an 'aha' moment when this was seen, and although everything carries on as before including the head chatter, thinking is somehow less overpowering. This is a brilliant pointer thanks. The light, humorous feeling is back despite all of life's usual crap (heating problems, broken washing machine, biting dog etc...)
Hug,
Nina

Hi Nina,

This was a breakthrough, on looking for a boundary between 'me' and thoughts it was clearly seen that there is no me, it is all just thoughts. The self is made entirely of thought - it was an 'aha' moment when this was seen, and although everything carries on as before including the head chatter, thinking is somehow less overpowering. This is a brilliant pointer thanks. The light, humorous feeling is back despite all of life's usual crap (heating problems, broken washing machine, biting dog etc...)

Wonderful to read this!

Just for kicks, please confirm:

What is a boundary or a division in direct experience? Where can it be found?

What is divided or separate from what?

Is any of this possible to experience now, or is it no more than thoughts of boundaries, thoughts of a me, thoughts of separation?

Take some time if you'd like and see how things settle. Doing great Nina!

Wesley

Hi Nina,

How are you doing?

-W

Hi Wesley,
Sorry for the delay - I started replying straight away, then decided to wait a bit and somehow a week disappeared :-)

What is a boundary or a division in direct experience? Where can it be found?

There are no boundaries in direct experience. The only boundaries are created by thought which adds descriptions of things, and describes separate objects - the reality is just colour or sound etc.

What is divided or separate from what?

Thinking says there is a world of separate objects, but the actual experience is undivided.

Is any of this possible to experience now, or is it no more than thoughts of boundaries, thoughts of a me, thoughts of separation?

It's only thought that creates boundaries, without thought there is no me and no separation, just one big continuous event.

Hug,
Nina

Hi Nina,

Sorry for the delay - I started replying straight away, then decided to wait a bit and somehow a week disappeared :-)

No worries at all, that sounds like a good thing to me :)

Thanks for your answers, you seem rather clear about them.

In terms of a separate self, do you feel any remaining doubt? Do you feel clear? Please know it is very normal for thoughts to continue, to continue getting identified with them and with stories, for suffering to continue even.

For now, I suggest sticking with whether any of it is happening to a 'you', and simply noticing what is coming from thought and what is coming from your DE.

Big hug,
Wesley

Hi Wesley

In terms of a separate self, do you feel any remaining doubt? Do you feel clear? Please know it is very normal for thoughts to continue, to continue getting identified with them and with stories, for suffering to continue even.

This is helpful, thanks - thoughts do continue talking as if they are the self, and the seeing that this isn't true comes and goes so it's good to know this is normal. There is a feeling of melancholy happening quite a bit, but I'm just accepting it and know it will pass sooner or later.
For now, I suggest sticking with whether any of it is happening to a 'you', and simply noticing what is coming from thought and what is coming from your DE.
Ok I will do :-)
Huge hug back,
Nina

Hi Wesley

In terms of a separate self, do you feel any remaining doubt? Do you feel clear? Please know it is very normal for thoughts to continue, to continue getting identified with them and with stories, for suffering to continue even.

This is helpful, thanks - thoughts do continue talking as if they are the self, and the seeing that this isn't true comes and goes so it's good to know this is normal. There is a feeling of melancholy happening quite a bit, but I'm just accepting it and know it will pass sooner or later.

For now, I suggest sticking with whether any of it is happening to a 'you', and simply noticing what is coming from thought and what is coming from your DE.

Ok I will do :-)
Huge hug back,
Nina
Oops I forgot to quote the second bit on the last post :-)