I

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

Whatever this force is that's noticing...it feels personal...I want to call it 'I'... not 'I' as Renee, but 'I' as the most intimate. I feel love for this...love for this unbroken intimacy. I want to say this intimacy is noticing.

Try an exercise.

Place a cup in front of you on the table. The cup should have a single colour, such as white or red or blue. It doesn't matter which colour.

Right here and now, what notices the colour?

It is a common (but questionable) view that there are three elements or separate parts to this noticing,

Its said that there is the seer or perceiver (corresponding to 'me'), the seeing or perception and the seen or perceived (object, colour etc).

But is it really like this?

Notice the colour of the cup. Perhaps it's white? Is whiteness separate from the noticing of it?

In the immediate experience of seeing, is there any separation between seer and seen?

In seeing whiteness there is a quality of noticing? Ok? Is that 'me' 'doing' 'noticing'? Or more like ... Noticing just happening?


Love

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

Place a cup in front of you on the table. The cup should have a single colour, such as white or red or blue. It doesn't matter which colour.
Right here and now, what notices the colour?

It seems the mind notices and discerns information about the colour.

In the immediate experience of seeing, is there any separation between seer and seen?

Is there any separation from the noticing and what's noticed? I don't know I feel I have to spend time with is it sort of fries my brain.

In seeing whiteness there is a quality of noticing? Ok? Is that 'me' 'doing' 'noticing'? Or more like ... Noticing just happening?

Noticing is just happening but the mind is involved in this.

Thank you,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

. Right here and now, what notices the colour?


It seems the mind notices and discerns information about the colour.

Really?

I'm doing this exercise now and to me there is simply the experience of whiteness. It is very direct and immediate, a sensation that can be labeled 'whiteness' but which, even without labeling, would still be a real and happening sensation.

What I can not find here is any direct experience of 'mind discerning information'. No matter how hard I look for that, there doesn't seem to be anything real that corresponds to a thing called 'mind' that can be seen to be 'noticing and discerning information'

Are you sure that this is your experience? Please try this exercise again and see if its possible to find 'mind' doing 'information discerning'.

I know its brain-frying but that means this inquiry is beginning to work :-)


Best wishes,

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hey Renee,

Did you get time to look at what said?


best wishes,

Jon

[springwater]

Place a cup in front of you on the table. The cup should have a single colour, such as white or red or blue. It doesn't matter which colour. Right here and now, what notices the colour?

It seems the mind notices and discerns information about the colour.

Really?

I'm doing this exercise now and to me there is simply the experience of whiteness. It is very direct and immediate, a sensation that can be labeled 'whiteness' but which, even without labeling, would still be a real and happening sensation.

What I can not find here is any direct experience of 'mind discerning information'. No matter how hard I look for that, there doesn't seem to be anything real that corresponds to a thing called 'mind' that can be seen to be 'noticing and discerning information'

Are you sure that this is your experience? Please try this exercise again and see if its possible to find 'mind' doing 'information discerning'.

I'm confused on this exercise because the question is "what notices the colour?" If there was no mind, I guess I wouldn't be seeing anything, but the question about what notices the color...
I can see just noticing is happening...but when it comes to what notices the color? In order for me to discern that the cup is white and not green...that takes the mind and the words that were learned associated with the color...
I don't know I'm confused

Thank you,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

I'm confused on this exercise because the question is "what notices the colour?" If there was no mind, I guess I wouldn't be seeing anything,

That was just my way of phrasing. It was just meant to make you take a look at this noticing colour. In the experience of noticing is there a thing that can be found "doing noticing" or is it just ...happening?

Would you say that the immediate sensation of colour is a real experience? In the way that if you run your hand under warm water it's really felt, not just imaginary? You could try this just as well as the colour exercise actually. It would work too.

Please try these exercises again for real. In the cases of both sensations of colour or warm wetness, is there immediate experience of them?

Are there also thoughts happening at the same time? maybe thoughts about what is happening?

If there is a thought like: "If there was no mind, I guess I wouldn't be seeing anything", does such a thought either cause or prevent the seeing from happening?



love

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

Would you say that the immediate sensation of colour is a real experience? In the way that if you run your hand under warm water it's really felt, not just imaginary? You could try this just as well as the colour exercise actually. It would work too.

Please try these exercises again for real. In the cases of both sensations of colour or warm wetness, is there immediate experience of them?

Are there also thoughts happening at the same time? maybe thoughts about what is happening?

Yes noticing is just happening. I'm kinda getting what you are saying from these experiments that it is an immediate experience. Yes the mind will add on to the immediate experience. It is hard to separate what's noticing to what is noticed...I have a slight sense of this.

If there is a thought like: "If there was no mind, I guess I wouldn't be seeing anything", does such a thought either cause or prevent the seeing from happening?

Seeing happens regardless

Thank you Jon,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

Yes noticing is just happening. I'm kinda getting what you are saying from these experiments that it is an immediate experience. Yes the mind will add on to the immediate experience. It is hard to separate what's noticing to what is noticed...I have a slight sense of this.

So you did these experiments? Great. It's important to do them for real.

The noticing just happens. There is an immediate experience.

And there do seem to be thoughts that are added on to the immediate experience. It's good to notice this, how there is immediate sense experience of seeing, hearing, touch, taste and smell, and then a sort of narrative or commentary that is added on?

Notice how the immediate sensations are all really happening. One can cover the eyes but there is still seeing (of darkness), for example.

Thoughts also appear. Can thoughts be prevented from appearing?

best wishes,

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

Notice how the immediate sensations are all really happening. One can cover the eyes but there is still seeing (of darkness), for example.

Yes the seeing and noticing doesn't seem to stop or there isn't any control of it.

Your experiment has shifted something. Noticing and what is noticed...it seems all the same. It's like what is noticed is the noticing. Hard to explain what I'm trying to say. It's like all that is noticed is already the noticing.

Can thoughts be prevented from appearing?

They just appear and cannot be prevented.

Thank you Jon,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

. Yes the seeing and noticing doesn't seem to stop or there isn't any control of it.

Good.

. Your experiment has shifted something. Noticing and what is noticed...it seems all the same. It's like what is noticed is the noticing. Hard to explain what I'm trying to say. It's like all that is noticed is already the noticing.

:-) Great. Over the next couple of days try the same sort of exercise with each of the five senses, seeing, hearing, taste, touch and smell. It doesn't matter much what sensation or 'object' is being experienced. Look for any kind of separation or line between what is sensed and the noticing of it.

You may notice that thoughts chip in with all sorts of commentary.

Important. Can thoughts be prevented from appearing, including the thought 'I' ?


All best

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

Over the next couple of days try the same sort of exercise with each of the five senses, seeing, hearing, taste, touch and smell. It doesn't matter much what sensation or 'object' is being experienced. Look for any kind of separation or line between what is sensed and the noticing of it.
You may notice that thoughts chip in with all sorts of commentary.

Important. Can thoughts be prevented from appearing, including the thought 'I' ?

I've been doing this exercise with the other senses. There is the sense of the immediacy in all the senses.

But there seems to be a glitch - there are thoughts about the skin body barrier...like there is still inside and an outside. Even though there is this the no separation experience...there is still a thought of the barrier of the body. But ya thoughts can't be prevented from appearing, including the 'I' thought.

Thank you Jon,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

. But there seems to be a glitch - there are thoughts about the skin body barrier...like there is still inside and an outside. Even though there is this the no separation experience...there is still a thought of the barrier of the body. But ya thoughts can't be prevented from appearing, including the 'I' thought.

Does a thought ABOUT a pink elephant make one exist for real?

Does a thought ABOUT a 'skin body barrier' create actual separation between a 'self inside' and a 'world outside'?

Is that a bit like saying 'Santa is really there, inside his red clothes and separated from the world by his costume?

What if even Santa is just an imaginary character?


Love

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

Does a thought ABOUT a 'skin body barrier' create actual separation between a 'self inside' and a 'world outside'?

No it doesn't, but it seems it's been a long time thinking this way.
I think somehow I'm still linked to a someone noticing. I will write more when I get back. I'm heading to Canada til Wed.

Thank you Jon,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

. No it doesn't, but it seems it's been a long time thinking this way.

Yes. Very true.

Could it be sheer force of habit to believe in a 'self' 'inside a body' ?

. I think somehow I'm still linked to a someone noticing.

Could we perhaps try changing the wording of what you have written here slightly? How about: "There is the idea / belief that noticing is being done by a someone".

How does that sound to you?


I look forward to hearing from you when you're back from Canada.

Best wishes,

Jon

[springwater]

Could it be sheer force of habit to believe in a 'self' 'inside a body' ?

Yes that seems very likely

I think somehow I'm still linked to someone noticing.

Could we perhaps try changing the wording of what you have written here slightly? How about: "There is the idea / belief that noticing is being done by a someone".

How does that sound to you?

Yes that feels accurate. But I still feel tripped up by this sense of personal with this intimate noticing. I know we explored the intimate part a bit. I feel I'm trying to get away from the personal feeling of it to see that there's just noticing. But I can't get away from this personal sense which feels like something! :)

Thank you Jon,
Renee