Requesting guidance

[Treelife]

Hi Jon
I don't have much to feed back. Been quite busy in work and correspondingly my mind has been busy in last two days. Your guidance in last entry was very apt.

Who or what could make such thoughts not appear?

I don't know. Not trying any more, am just going to try focus upon and scrutinize the sense of self.

With love
M

[JonathanR]

HI Mic,

Ok. Thank you for posting.

Not trying any more, am just going to try focus upon and scrutinize the sense of self.

That sounds good. Let me know how it goes?


with love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,
I don't have much to report. Not much insight happening in the exercises.
Earlier in the week I wrote about having some clarity in my focus in looking for/at the illusion of self. This was followed by a strong increase in busy mind. Been difficult to hold the focus, or even think about self/no self. My focus/attention seems to slip off it. My thoughts are drawn to lots of things that are not the point of self illusion. I then start feeling frustrated and also hear my thoughts saying things like, 'I'll never get it', 'maybe this is as far as I am going to go', 'this probable isn't the time for me, I should leave it and come back to it some other time'.

I wonder if there is a pattern here, and if so is it a common pattern. I note that this is possibly the third time (or maybe more than third) that when I have some decent clarity, (or feel I have made some progress), then my mind becomes quite busy in the days that follow; that I become desponded even less motivated. It is a real struggle to get back into it.

Admittedly I was busy in work for a few days (and that will continue), but then yesterday and today I had more time to offer the process and even while meditating for an hour and an half tonight, it is still difficult. I do want to proceed and like the idea of making it through the gate that is not a gate, however I wonder if there is something in me resisting it - I know that is not proper non-duality language. It does feel like two steps forward and two steps back. Of course I want to proceed but I find myself having some doubts that I'll get much further.
I really do hold the believe now that there is no self, that there is no central control, no free will; that the body and the outside world may exist, and that thoughts do exist but the idea of Mic being distinct and autonomist from the universe that is conceivably outside my skin is an illusion. And despite this belief there is the sense of a self that seems to slip around, and move and remold it's sense of itself.

On another level I want to give you advance notice that on the 4th of October I am going to be traveling to Africa for a couple of weeks on a work related project - and again for a couple of weeks in November. I won't be completely out of the process, but obviously internet contact may be a struggle.

As always looking forward to hearing from you Jon,
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Earlier in the week I wrote about having some clarity in my focus in looking for/at the illusion of self. This was followed by a strong increase in busy mind

It can happen. It's not a sign of 'failure' by the way. The mind can get very busy like this when there is a perception of threat to 'its self' or its territory (imagining that it is running the universe, holding things together or whatever). It may be necessary to look again at the area of anxiety or fear of this process?

I'm wondering if you might like to take a break from this inquiry and return another time? We can always pick up again later. The conversation is not finished until it is. Looks like you will be busy in the coming month or two?

let me know what you think?

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,

It can happen. It's not a sign of 'failure' by the way.

Ok, so it is a parrern, it is not just me?

The mind can get very busy like this when there is a perception of threat to 'its self' or its territory (imagining that it is running the universe, holding things together or whatever).

Hymmmm this is my hypothesis also.

It may be necessary to look again at the area of anxiety or fear of this process?

I don't feel anxious, and have not in the last couple of week, but I will meditate on this. Any particular exercises you suggest here? Actually I find myself feeling quite content in life, more content and relaxed than I can remember from any other time in my life. Who knows, maybe that is what is holding me where I am at.

I'm wondering if you might like to take a break from this inquiry and return another time? We can always pick up again later. The conversation is not finished until it is. Looks like you will be busy in the coming month or two? I should meditate on this also.

Certainly there is a part of me (if you will allow me to use such language) that would welcome that, but there is much more of me that wants to proceed. I know there is something here for me, but I also know that after putting a lot of effort into it for the last three months and having filled nine pages of emails I am at risk of running out of steam. Even if I don't get through the gate, the process of getting to the gate has been of huge benefit to me - change in my relationship with myself and contributed a lot to the other journey I have been on - but overall I still want to see fully through the illusion and be on the other side of the gate.
Regarding the question, is it time to take a break? I would welcome hearing any insights you have as you've consistently been a step ahead of me in naming where I am at and catching the nub of my struggles. You clearly understand this process very well.
Notwithstanding that I don't want to take a break right now, although maybe can I say that we review at the end of the month before I go to Africa.

With love and gratitude,
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

I'm glad that you want to go on with the inquiry.

The mind can get very busy like this when there is a perception of threat to 'its self' or its territory (imagining that it is running the universe, holding things together or whatever).
Hymmmm this is my hypothesis also.

Yes but it is also possible to stop and really take a look to see if there is 'mind'.

Other than as a set of concepts, where is this thing?

About anxiety, it's good that you can say confidently that that is not the issue.

Who knows, maybe that is what is holding me where I am at.

Ha ha. Nothing is holding a you where it is imagined one is held.

Where is the 'you' that is 'held'?

love

Jon

[Treelife]

Thanks again Jon,

Yes but it is also possible to stop and really take a look to see if there is 'mind'.
Other than as a set of concepts, where is this thing?

The mind - as I understand it - is by it's very nature is nothing but concepts. It does not have a material existence.

When you say, "stop and really take a look to see if there is 'mind'," I'm wondering if you have some specific exercise or technique. I don't intend to ask such a silly question but seeing that the 'mind' by it's nature is nothing but concepts and is not a thing that is anywhere.
I suppose I do find myself looking and asking 'what is real' in that interaction between sense data and thought data (from Jed McKenna book). That actually has been useful. But Jon if you have any more words (or tricks) to put onto this, please don't hold back.

Nothing is holding a you where it is imagined one is held.
Where is the 'you' that is 'held'?

The mind Jon, the mind!!!

Today is a good day for me in the world of non-duality inquiry - your pep talk does me well.

Soon man,
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Nothing is holding a you where it is imagined one is held.
Where is the 'you' that is 'held'?
The mind Jon, the mind!!!

The same mind that believes in the Easter Bunny or Santa, until someone points out that perhaps these are ideas and not actual persons?

Look for this character that is supposed to be a prisoner of a mind.

If it can't be found, look some more. No special tricks. It's about simply looking.

love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,

The same mind that believes in the Easter Bunny or Santa, until someone points out that perhaps these are ideas and not actual persons?

That works for me Jon. The sense of self is dissolving. I see it - I have no idea if I will still see it in the morning but this evening I see it. There is nothing to push against, nothing to get rid of, or to fight, or even to dissolve. The I is not any more than an idea. It's only reality is in my mind, and the mind of other people. Like the border around The Sudan. The Sudan does not exist, there is no country other than what people conceptualize as a country - although there may well be desert and rivers and mountains and jungles but the existence of a country is nothing more than an idea, with no objective reality. And then one day people just think about changing the border and then The Sudan does not exist; instead people convince themselves there is not one country, but two (North Sudan and South Sudan).
There may well be atoms that make up a body, but the definition that the body is separate from anything else is an idea. And the personality that is defined to identify with the body is just an idea. My mind may see the personality and person of Mic one way, but my wife sees him another way, my clients see him differently still, and I shudder to think how some distant ex-girlfriends sees him. My children, my employer, my dog.....all different definitions of Mic. So which one is he? He is nothing other than a projection of the mind, my mind, everyone else's mind and they are all different.

I can look at images of batman on a comic book page and construct a story of batman, but batman is not real. What is taken for batman is just ink on a page - and what is ink on a page other than an extension of something else.... Equally there may well be something that can form into a body, there may well be a screen that sense data land onto, but does the existence of such a body or a screen constitute anything more real than the story batman. Ideas defo do exist, they exist about batman, they exist about me, but that does not make batman any more real than the idea of it. The actions associated with Mic, the ideas and the feelings are a manifestation of the universe and everything that cannot be attributed to any individual, cannot be attributed to 'me'. The universe does it's thing (what ever that is) and the byproduct it that there is an idea that Mic exists and is responsible for part of that.

(Did you see the Netflix series The Crown) When you look into a dark pond, you can see shadows beneath the surface. The shadows are vague and shifting, sometimes you see them but always formless, sometimes there is clearly no shadows. Well that is where I am at this evening. Occasionally there is a shadow of an illusion of the self - vague and formless - but clearly convinced as an illusion. Other times clear and shadow less, not even the illusion to see through.

I've no idea how this will look in the morning, but for now I can see through the illusion in way that is a lot deeper than I've see before. Would be good for the shadows to further dissolve.

With love

Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Occasionally there is a shadow of an illusion of the self - vague and formless - but clearly convinced as an illusion

Can an illusion be convinced?

I love your analogy about Sudan.

I've no idea how this will look in the morning, but for now I can see through the illusion in way that is a lot deeper than I've seen before.

Is there a different feeling that goes with that?

Would be good for the shadows to further dissolve.

Yes. But it is in the nature of an illusion to appear. As clouds dissolve the sunshine breaks through but clouds have a habit of appearing again and then clearing again.

Do you see?

love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon
Sorry for not writing yesterday, I was working very late.

Can an illusion be convinced?

I think what I mean is that the illusion can appear, and then with a glance (or a small amount of inquiry) I see through it, see it is an illusion, see that there is no 'me'. Still today, it is clear that the 'self' is an illusion. It is not that the sense of self does not arise, it does (sometimes), but it is known to be an illusion, to not be real.

Is there a different feeling that goes with that?

On a number of levels.
That which was assumed to in some way represent the 'self' was certain sensations (chest, behind my eyes) thoughts, the observer, self referential thoughts etc... They all still exist, but they only exist as sensations and thoughts. They do not harbour an assumption of 'me'; or if they hint it, then there is no belief to secure it. It feels.... ehhhh.... kind of mellow. The feeling is more relaxed, less heat or noise. Things don't really matter, experiences (sensations & thoughts) I can now take them or leave them. Even if they are strong sensations, I am not captured by them. This morning for example I had a busy mind - tired and under a little pressure - but there was a softness in it. I did not get lost in the busy mind. The judgements and evaluations (of self and others) are completely deflated, there is no divine authority (internal or external) therefore how can I be ‘wrong’ or ‘bad’ therefore no thoughts of self deprecation to torture me – and if a negative automatic thought arises, well is has no inherent truth therefore cannot torture me.
On another level the difference between the feeling from before I started this process, versus the feeling now, is much greater than the difference between feelings from the start of the week and now. Can I use the analogy that a few months ago I utilised the idea of the 'self' or the observer, to calm things down, to give self compassion, to reassure 'me'. Gradually the sense of automatic compassion has been expanding to the point that it is just there. There is no 'bad Mic' because there is no bad, and guess what there is no Mic (beyond the very detailed story of Mic). And if the sense of 'bad Mic' arises then it seems to evaporate with a glance or enquiry.

I am wondering Jon, what I am missing? I know this is subtle, but..... am I missing something? I still get engaged in tasks and when that happens then there is an absence of 'self' and an absence of 'no self'. Nothing is ‘found’ but something is gone – the inherent belief in Me versus everything that is Not Me – and it is not really replaced by anything. Just.......thing being a little bit more...... flowing (for the want to a better word). Almost not noticeable.

Love Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

I am wondering Jon, what I am missing? I know this is subtle, but..... am I missing something? I still get engaged in tasks and when that happens then there is an absence of 'self' and an absence of 'no self'. Nothing is ‘found’ but something is gone – the inherent belief in Me versus everything that is Not Me – and it is not really replaced by anything. Just.......thing being a little bit more...... flowing (for the want to a better word). Almost not noticeable.

Sounds good.

What could you be missing?

Should something be happening that hasn't yet?


Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,
Things are a little bit wobbly.

The mind can get very busy like this when there is a perception of threat to 'its self' or its territory (imagining that it is running the universe, holding things together or whatever).

It is that pattern I made reference to last week - a significant insight quickly followed by a wobble. Late last night and today the mind has been busy, with thoughts challenging the lack of self. Like flicking between two realities. Except that when the 'self does exist' lens is operating, I do hold believe that it is a false reality - (but it takes effort). The reality of, 'knowing that the self is an illusion' is somewhat established, but it is still vulnerable. Not so flowing today, more of a wobbly uncertain feeling. I need to surf it, do the exercises, give it a little time, the pattern it that it does come full circle.
.....anyway, this is all soooooo interesting. Am really enjoying it Jon.

Sounds good.
What could you be missing?
Should something be happening that hasn't yet?

Your absolutely right Jon. Forgive me, I'm just not so accustomed to feeling relaxed and at ease, and feeling like 'I' don't have to stand against the whole world. A life long habit of looking for (and therefore finding) problems. If this sticks, I guess I could get used to.....flowing.

Anyway give me a few days and see when/where this lands. I'll keep you posted.

thank you very much Jon,
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Yes, that's great. Let me know how it's going in a day or two.

All the best,

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,
The weekend did see thoughts arising that challenged the uncontestable insight of last week. But I think now I am aware of the pattern so did not get lost in it as I have previously.
True to the established pattern, the baseline in understanding is broken with a strong insight into the illusion, this is then followed by a busy mind that is inclined to hold on to the illusion of self, which starts to settle down after a couple of days. A pendulum swinging. However what I am left with is a new baseline with increased clarity than the previous starting point, but the clarity is not as powerful as the break through point.
I think (I hope) I can safely say that the insight about the illusion, now has a strong foothold in my mind. Last week I could see most clearly and feel most strongly that the self is an illusion. Therefore today as the 'sense of a self' arises it is not difficult to see through that, to challenge that with inquiry, to retract the path of understanding it is an illusion.
In moments of reflection it is not difficult to be clear that there is no self. When I am busy with daily activates and my mind wanders into its default mode network, well then 'self' like identities can creep in. But not with the same intensity I think.

That which was assumed to in some way represent the 'self' was certain sensations (chest, behind my eyes) thoughts, the observer, self referential thoughts etc... They all still exist, but they only exist as sensations and thoughts. They do not harbor an assumption of 'me'; or if they hint it, then there is no belief to secure it. It feels.... ehhhh.... kind of mellow. The feeling is more relaxed, less heat or noise. Things don't really matter, experiences (sensations & thoughts) I can now take them or leave them. Even if they are strong sensations, I am not captured by them.

This quote is from last week and it still holds truth - although not at the same volume as when I wrote it. Even when self thoughts are more prevalent then things still have more flow than I remember them.

The thing is Jon, I just worry that I am not deluding myself about seeing through the illusion. That my mind is trying to convince itself that it is seeing what it wants to see. It is all so subtle....and vulnerable.

With thanks, Love
Mic