Looking for a long time and quite confused.

[Sarah7]

Hey Felix
Yes thought will resist looking. Think it comes from us being taught that thought is king and we aren’t really taught to look. It that’s also a story! Hahaha!
So moving on.

What are others in direct experience? Others in comparison to what?
Is there still a belief that ͚you͛ Are in the body?
Is there an inside and an outside of the body? What about the other objects (nature, animals, people)? Is there a "you" that feels separated from them or is that just another thought/concept?
Does the sense of self appears simultaneously with the resistance to what is?
Use the interaction with others to notice how the interactions with different people triggers different responses. Notice that"you" are not the person who suffer but "you" arises simultaneously with the struggle/resistance that generates the suffering. Every interaction with "others" can be an opportunity to notice that. Is there a physical self-contained within/as other bodies?

Go sit in a park or somewhere where there is a mixture of people and other living objects like birds trees-
also non-'living' rocks water moving, wind etc. Then looking at if there was a self in that image/colours/movement (of rocks, wind), then what about plants/animals? Any difference? Then the human bodies moving around, talking? What͛s the difference apart from the ideas about that? Does that prove anything?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SomeOne]

Hey Sarah,

What are others in direct experience? Others in comparison to what?

This was enlightening. In direct experience, i.e. seeing, there isn't really a difference. It's just seeing, with content in it, but that's already a story/labeling.

Is there still a belief that ͚you͛ Are in the body?

Well, yes. Or, at least, it's *someone* who is there. It feels like a person is there. Someone who is feeling good or bad, someone who is focusing or bored, someone who is, e.g., having fun, smiling, being sad, etc. Like that's the person everything is happening to. Looking at this, it's quite funny, because I would also say that I am experiencing this person, like I am talking/thinking about it. At the same time, it's this person doing all the things.

Is there an inside and an outside of the body?

This one's kinda hard to say. It's just different parts of direct experience - seeing and feeling - being interpreted together. It's just a concept. At the same time, it really *feels* like some feelings/sensations are inside the body (of course, it makes sense).

What about the other objects (nature, animals, people)?

For those, it does not seem like there is an inside and an outside. Wow, that's funny somehow. Direct experience of things does not make them feel separate at all.

Is there a "you" that feels separated from them or is that just another thought/concept?

As I just wrote before, there doesn't seem to be one. It's just a thought. At the same time, there do seem to exist separate people, walking around/experiencing things individually. At least me, with my own story, searching/looking for things, trying to do things, etc.

Does the sense of self appears simultaneously with the resistance to what is?

Yes! This one was a big one somehow. When I first looked at it this way, there were quite a few "enlightening" moments, feeling quite relieving. But that somehow faded, and it doesn't have the same effect anymore. Yes, I notice that that are just thoughts again coming up, but it still feels really frightful somehow, that the effect just went away. Just writing things down here as best as I can.

Use the interaction with others to notice how the interactions with different people triggers different responses. Notice that"you" are not the person who suffer but "you" arises simultaneously with the struggle/resistance that generates the suffering. Every interaction with "others" can be an opportunity to notice that.

I always seemed to forget this during interactions with others. It was somehow hard to remember when in a discussion etc. But, again, the middle part about "'me' arising simultaneously with the struggle/resistance" had quite an effect, it feels like. I'll continue trying to remember this for the next couple of days.

Is there a physical self-contained within/as other bodies?

Do you mean "Is there a physical self, contained within/as other bodies?" or really "Is there a physical self-contained within/as other bodies?"? In the latter case I don't really get the question, but in the first case I would say no. Somehow just the person themselves, talking etc.

As for the last part, I didn't get a chance to go to a park or something yet. Maybe I'll have time for this over the weekend.

Finally, it comes up again and again that I feel as if I am there thinking about/reasoning about things, trying to get somewhere, being the observer, etc. It feels like this keeps myself from actually realizing things, as I am holding things at an arm's length from me, trying to "use" them instead of doing 100% unbiased looking.

Thanks!

Felix

[Sarah7]

Hey Felix

Well, yes. Or, at least, it's *someone* who is there. It feels like a person is there. Someone who is feeling good or bad, someone who is focusing or bored, someone who is, e.g., having fun, smiling, being sad, etc. Like that's the person everything is happening to. Looking at this, it's quite funny, because I would also say that I am experiencing this person, like I am talking/thinking about it. At the same time, it's this person doing all the things.

Pick this feeling apart. What is it made up of? And is there something that notices it?

As I just wrote before, there doesn't seem to be one. It's just a thought. At the same time, there do seem to exist separate people, walking around/experiencing things individually. At least me, with my own story, searching/looking for things, trying to do things, etc.

Are you clear it’s just a thought?

Yes! This one was a big one somehow. When I first looked at it this way, there were quite a few "enlightening" moments, feeling quite relieving. But that somehow faded, and it doesn't have the same effect anymore. Yes, I notice that that are just thoughts again coming up, but it still feels really frightful somehow, that the effect just went away. Just writing things down here as best as I can.

Keep looking into this.

Use the interaction with others to notice how the interactions with different people triggers different responses. Notice that"you" are not the person who suffer but "you" arises simultaneously with the struggle/resistance that generates the suffering. Every interaction with "others" can be an opportunity to notice that.

I always seemed to forget this during interactions with others. It was somehow hard to remember when in a discussion etc. But, again, the middle part about "'me' arising simultaneously with the struggle/resistance" had quite an effect, it feels like. I'll continue trying to remember this for the next couple of days.

Keep at it. No worriworries S if forgetting happens, just pick up when remembering happens!

Do you mean "Is there a physical self, contained within/as other bodies?" or really "Is there a physical self-contained within/as other bodies?"? In the latter case I don't really get the question, but in the first case I would say no. Somehow just the person themselves, talking etc.

It’s simply asking if you can know that there is a self inside others? Can you experience something you don’t actually experience?

As for the last part, I didn't get a chance to go to a park or something yet. Maybe I'll have time for this over the weekend.

Looking forward to what is noticed.

Finally, it comes up again and again that I feel as if I am there thinking about/reasoning about things, trying to get somewhere, being the observer, etc. It feels like this keeps myself from actually realizing things, as I am holding things at an arm's length from me, trying to "use" them instead of doing 100% unbiased looking.

Can you actually control any of this anyway?
There maybe some thought as you put what is noticed into words. But just check if there is looking going on or reasoning? If reasoning comes after looking or looking is not happening and there is just thinking.
Is there a noticing of looking going on? If so does that noticing mind anything? Is bothered by any of this? Is angered or annoyed?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SomeOne]

Hey Sarah,

I had a big realization over the last few days, part of that is that there is actually nobody who had that realization. There is no self that feels, e.g., happy about things happening, for example happy about happiness. Instead, "happiness" is just there, without an observer/experiencer. There is no self involved in that loop of experiences and reactions, so to speak. Also, nobody is seeing things, but there is seeing and reactions to it, in the form of thought etc. Memories and reactions are just things that happen, there is no external thing that sees stuff and then, e.g., thinks about it, as thoughts just happen all the same. There is nobody who remembers things or who understands something, who can "gain" knowledge.

Well, yes. Or, at least, it's *someone* who is there. It feels like a person is there. Someone who is feeling good or bad, someone who is focusing or bored, someone who is, e.g., having fun, smiling, being sad, etc. Like that's the person everything is happening to. Looking at this, it's quite funny, because I would also say that I am experiencing this person, like I am talking/thinking about it. At the same time, it's this person doing all the things.

Pick this feeling apart. What is it made up of? And is there something that notices it?

Still looking into this. However, this seems to be rather effective/there seems to be quite some potential here. Just haven't gotten very far with this yet. In any case, thought also seems a play a big role here. Will keep on looking.

It’s simply asking if you can know that there is a self inside others? Can you experience something you don’t actually experience?

No, I can't know that.

Finally, it comes up again and again that I feel as if I am there thinking about/reasoning about things, trying to get somewhere, being the observer, etc. It feels like this keeps myself from actually realizing things, as I am holding things at an arm's length from me, trying to "use" them instead of doing 100% unbiased looking.

Can you actually control any of this anyway?
There maybe some thought as you put what is noticed into words. But just check if there is looking going on or reasoning? If reasoning comes after looking or looking is not happening and there is just thinking.
Is there a noticing of looking going on? If so does that noticing mind anything? Is bothered by any of this? Is angered or annoyed?

No, no control. It feels like there is just thinking. No, no noticing going on! And nothing that is minded or bothered etc.

The realization from the beginning was prevalent for the last couple of days, and focus wasn't really on many other things.

Thank you again! :)

Best,
Felix

[Sarah7]

Hi Felix!

I had a big realization over the last few days, part of that is that there is actually nobody who had that realization. There is no self that feels, e.g., happy about things happening, for example happy about happiness. Instead, "happiness" is just there, without an observer/experiencer. There is no self involved in that loop of experiences and reactions, so to speak. Also, nobody is seeing things, but there is seeing and reactions to it, in the form of thought etc. Memories and reactions are just things that happen, there is no external thing that sees stuff and then, e.g., thinks about it, as thoughts just happen all the same. There is nobody who remembers things or who understands something, who can "gain" knowledge.

Lovely.

Still looking into this. However, this seems to be rather effective/there seems to be quite some potential here. Just haven't gotten very far with this yet. In any case, thought also seems a play a big role here. Will keep on looking.

Maybe look as a by product of above!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SomeOne]

Hey Sarah,

I didn't look into much because I didn't really knew what to focus on. What I found profound, though, was noticing how "interactions with different people trigger different responses", when I remembered to do so. I looked more into the feeling "inside my body", but didn't come up with much. It feels like it's the only thing that exists, somehow, or like it's everything that there is. At a few points, thoughts like "I am feeling this" seemed to become superfluous or unnecessary. Anyway, it still feels like putting focus on the feeling "inside" seems to be a helpful thing. But it's more like attention just shifts, and thoughts change, instead of actively doing something.

I noticed how we always only think what we are thinking, never something else. Even though that seems obvious, it is funny because the things that happen don't feel chosen or picked, they just happen. Where do they come from? Why these thoughts? Obviously observation of things happening is again just things happening.

Over the weekend I had a phase where I felt quite down/negative, and couldn't really get out of it. This feels threatening somehow, because it makes me afraid that I don't know how to/can't handle such situations. Knowing that things happen as they do, and that there isn't really any control, doesn't seem to help much, because it still feels like I can do things. It feels like I could do things if I wanted to. Typing this out felt really relieving somehow. Instead of control, "I could do things if I wanted to/if I knew how to" seems to be a really negative belief about "me" instead.

Thank you very much!

Best,
Felix

[Sarah7]

Hey Felix
Lovely noticing!

Over the weekend I had a phase where I felt quite down/negative, and couldn't really get out of it. This feels threatening somehow, because it makes me afraid that I don't know how to/can't handle such situations. Knowing that things happen as they do, and that there isn't really any control, doesn't seem to help much, because it still feels like I can do things. It feels like I could do things if I wanted to. Typing this out felt really relieving somehow. Instead of control, "I could do things if I wanted to/if I knew how to" seems to be a really negative belief about "me" instead.

Ok this exercise is directed towards anxiety/fear. But the process is the same for looking at all emotions really. Thoughts will add a story as to why some SHOULD be there and some SHOULDNT. Is either right?

What is the sensation itself – striped of story – ignore the thoughts – look to the sensation only. The sensation changes continually or moves. Go into it. How old is the vibration, how long has this anxiety labelled sensation been? Has it just happened, does it have a history this sensation (apart from what thought gives it). How would you describe this sensation? Is it ever changing? Is it painful? Is it a problem this sensation? If thought says its unpleasant is it really? Go to the sensations and check under the label and story. Is unpleasantness added by thought? Look as new born baby – you know nothing but the current experience – is it really unpleasant? Go to the sensation – turn down the volume of the thoughts – is it a problem? If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something labelled or called anxiety? Is there any inherent anxiety in the sensation itself? Go to the sensation located at the sole of your foot – would you call that sensation anxious? Or is it just a tingling vibration? Now compare these 2 sensations –the neutral soles of the feet to the labelled sensation in the chest or where ever – whats the difference between them? Don’t refer to the labels – just refer to the sensations. Is one more intense? Like a headache? If you don’t refer to your thoughts is it unpleasant? Can you see how the thoughts get mixed up with the sensation? Is there an ‘I cant’ in there – that’s a thought. Is there an ‘I don’t want’ in there – that’s a thought. Go past the thought to the body sensation. Can you detect interpretation of the sensation? Thoughts again. Can you see the labels thought is trying to add - like – ‘this is anxiety’, ‘this is unpleasant’? None of these thoughts actually belong to the sensation. See the thoughts but place them to one side. Without these thoughts would you know these sensations were anxious? Same with the body – pure tingling sensation with thought overlaid. Is there resistance in the sensation or is it in the thought? What happens as the sensation is relieved of its labels?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SomeOne]

Hey Sarah,

that was really powerful! I worked with that again and again over the last week. Especially the part about "looking as a newborn baby" helped with taking a look at the sensations/feelings. I have no idea why it worked the way it did, but it did. More concretely, it seemed to help with my view on things that are going on, even though all I did was 'just' taking a closer look at the sensations/feelings. Still, it feels kind of difficult to distinguish between sensations and their labeling, especially because the labeling has become so constant and entrenched, but the more I focus the clearer it becomes. Even a label like "I am feeling good" is just a thought! I feel that I should work with this even more.

I also noticed how much of what thoughts say is just resistance to what is, and the actual content of thoughts is often not even that relevant. A thought like "I am not doing enough of this" is really just negative, who says what "enough" is? For some reason, reality/experience is labeled negatively so much.

Also, I noticed (again) how there isn't really an 'I' there that is doing anything. Whenever I look back, all that comes up is a succession of events/experiences, nobody there 'doing' anything, like choosing thoughts or something. "I noticed" is again just content of thoughts.

Thank you so much again!

Best,
Felix

[Sarah7]

Hi Felix
Lovely post.

I feel that I should work with this even more.

Take all the time you need. Also look out for any thought that says ‘you can control ............(maybe an emotion), so therefore do this more’.

Do you have any questions for me? Anything in particular you want to look specifically at?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SomeOne]

Hey Sarah!

Right after my last post I had a moment where I noticed that it had been "me" all the time that was resisting things. The thoughts I watched out for, like "I don't want this" etc., at some point I realized that it was me that was the force that kept those thoughts going.

Also look out for any thought that says ‘you can control ............(maybe an emotion), so therefore do this more’.

This was also a big one! Can't really put into words why, but it made this thought pattern much more "conscious", somehow lessening its strength.

After your questions of "How old is this sensation?" etc. I also think I got a better understanding of what the "past" is. The past is what was once "now", but it changes all the time, so in a certain sense there is only 'now'. And what I mean by past here is not some story, but the realization that there once was a different 'now'. Then again, that is also some kind of story I guess :)

I noticed that I often think "I am not doing enough looking etc.", but really, that thought pattern is just more resistance. Pretty much like before, who determines what "enough" is? This thought pattern stems from some perception of myself or something, but is not an unchangeable fact of reality. Also, "can I really control any of this?" - no, really not.

At times I feel like "I am getting close to seeing something/progress", but I noticed that's also just labeling of what's happening and trying to resist something/avoid something I perceived as "bad".

A few times I noticed that it is me that wants to "feel bad". Like I don't even want to let go of treating myself badly for some reason. It seems like I want to hold up some image of myself, or like there is something for me to gain from that.

At one point I also had what felt like a good understanding of what is meant by "thoughts say some feelings should or shouldn't be", but that didn't stay with me long.

The two thoughts "My thoughts keep returning to this stuff"/"Have I changed through these exercises?" seemed to somehow make it clear that there is just a story, and thoughts are just talking ABOUT it, but that's it.

Do you have any questions for me? Anything in particular you want to look specifically at?

Not really. It's really difficult for me to keep focused on the "looking at emotions exercise", as somehow a lot of resistance comes up whenever I do. It's been like that before as well. As I said earlier, there isn't really any control over that, but that's what happened the last few times. I just thought that I feel like "I'm not making progress", but noticed that that's also some way of avoiding some perceptions about something I feel "bad" about. Soo much seems to be about that!

Thank you very much! :)

Best,
Felix

[Sarah7]

Hey Felix!

Right after my last post I had a moment where I noticed that it had been "me" all the time that was resisting things. The thoughts I watched out for, like "I don't want this" etc., at some point I realized that it was me that was the force that kept those thoughts going.

Ok, so thought is resisting here yes? Is that what you mean by ‘me’? Do you control thought in any way shape or form?
And do you find a thought that resists another thought? If so that one needs a chorkle!

After your questions of "How old is this sensation?" etc. I also think I got a better understanding of what the "past" is. The past is what was once "now", but it changes all the time, so in a certain sense there is only 'now'. And what I mean by past here is not some story, but the realization that there once was a different 'now'. Then again, that is also some kind of story I guess :)

So as you have the thought you are already in the past yes. No thought is commenting on now, coz as soon as the concept is apparently understood, the now has moved on again. Have a look.

I noticed that I often think "I am not doing enough looking etc.", but really, that thought pattern is just more resistance. Pretty much like before, who determines what "enough" is? This thought pattern stems from some perception of myself or something, but is not an unchangeable fact of reality. Also, "can I really control any of this?" - no, really not.

Excellent. What can a thought ‘know’!

At times I feel like "I am getting close to seeing something/progress", but I noticed that's also just labeling of what's happening and trying to resist something/avoid something I perceived as "bad".

Or grasp?

A few times I noticed that it is me that wants to "feel bad". Like I don't even want to let go of treating myself badly for some reason. It seems like I want to hold up some image of myself, or like there is something for me to gain from that.

Is a self necessary in order for the thought "I am crap" to arise?
Is a self necessary in order for self-obsessive feelings to arise?

At one point I also had what felt like a good understanding of what is meant by "thoughts say some feelings should or shouldn't be", but that didn't stay with me long.

No probs. Just keep noticing. Attention goes where attention goes! Lol. But yes see if you can spot the ‘shoulds’ and the ‘shouldn’t’.

The two thoughts "My thoughts keep returning to this stuff"/"Have I changed through these exercises?" seemed to somehow make it clear that there is just a story, and thoughts are just talking ABOUT it, but that's it.

Excellent! When don’t thoughts do this? Just comment I mean! Don’t need specific answers here, just notice the quantity!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SomeOne]

Hey Sarah!

Been a while! :)

Ok, so thought is resisting here yes? Is that what you mean by ‘me’? Do you control thought in any way shape or form?
And do you find a thought that resists another thought? If so that one needs a chorkle!

This was quite revealing! It wasn't really "me", it was just thought again.

Excellent. What can a thought ‘know’!

This is so true! So much of what thought says is just completely arbitrary, just a labeling of whatever. There have been many moments where this became more obvious; For example, the thought "I changed over the last weeks" and similar ones are just a story, appearing in the moment! Just some labeling of whatever, really. Funnily enough, so many things are just stories/labels. And so many thoughts don't even really make sense. Like, really really many. Especially all the 'negative' ones. They say that something is 'bad', but what they mean is really not clear at all. Still, as they're often just taken for true, these thoughts then start to feel really heavy.

Looking more at the feelings/sensations that come up, and how it's really just thought labeling them, and that there aren't any inherent properties to them, has made this even more clear. There aren't really bad thoughts, that's just labeling again.

Or grasp?

Yes. Grasping is part of it, also a kind of resistance. But 'grasping' puts a much clearer and simpler light on what is actually happening. Trying to 'find answers', 'find out what to do', 'how to change things', etc., all kinds of resistance, but grasping is a more concrete description. I will try to spend more time with this, haven't really spent much with it yet.

Is a self necessary in order for the thought "I am crap" to arise?
Is a self necessary in order for self-obsessive feelings to arise?

No. This also made me look more at negative thoughts that I was having. I will also try to spend more time with this.

No probs. Just keep noticing. Attention goes where attention goes! Lol. But yes see if you can spot the ‘shoulds’ and the ‘shouldn’t’.

Been doing this as well. Especially the reminder about attention was cool.

Excellent! When don’t thoughts do this? Just comment I mean! Don’t need specific answers here, just notice the quantity!

Always! As I already said, they really just comment all the time, after stuff has already happened. And just make up some story that somehow seems to be obviously correct from whatever is happening. That being said, the fact that these thoughts *should* or *shouldn't* be is again just labeling. Wow.

Thanks so much again! Have a great day/evening/whatever it is when you are reading this! :)

Best,
Felix

[Sarah7]

Hey Felix

This is so true! So much of what thought says is just completely arbitrary, just a labeling of whatever. There have been many moments where this became more obvious; For example, the thought "I changed over the last weeks" and similar ones are just a story, appearing in the moment! Just some labeling of whatever, really. Funnily enough, so many things are just stories/labels. And so many thoughts don't even really make sense. Like, really really many. Especially all the 'negative' ones. They say that something is 'bad', but what they mean is really not clear at all.

So when you spot these this where you have a smile or a little laugh!

Still, as they're often just taken for true, these thoughts then start to feel really heavy.

By what?

There aren't really bad thoughts, that's just labeling again.

EXCELLENT!

Grasping is part of it, also a kind of resistance. But 'grasping' puts a much clearer and simpler light on what is actually happening. Trying to 'find answers', 'find out what to do', 'how to change things', etc., all kinds of resistance, but grasping is a more concrete description. I will try to spend more time with this, haven't really spent much with it yet.

Excellent!

This also made me look more at negative thoughts that I was having. I will also try to spend more time with this.

And so called positive ones too! We don’t question their existence, resist or try to get rid of them!
Is a self necessary in order for the thought "I am happy" to arise?
Is a self necessary in order for proud feelings to arise?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SomeOne]

Hi Sarah,

so, the past few weeks have been kinda.. turbulent. At the beginning of January, I had an intense experience where I basically realized that the "past is over" and any saying of the form "I am X/I have Problem X" is just resistance to/labeling of the past. Or maybe the present, because really, the past is over, and all that comes up are memories, and they are *now*, and not in the past. Anyway, I noticed that in a certain sense it's not possible for anyone to "change". The past is already as it is, nothing is ever going to change that. Never ever. There is no escape hatch or something, one gotta accept that that is how things are. And there is no problem with it. Never was.

And when I realized that, that my past is not going to change, that it just is at it is, and that there's nothing wrong with it, that felt like a huge amount of freedom.

Really, thinking that things went wrong or that we made a mistake or something are just not right. It's just that we think so little of ourselves that we assume the things we do can only be done by a "bad" person. Oh, this feeling? It's only there because I'm an idiot/not good enough. No. Not only idiots have that feeling, it is just that feeling and it's ok to have it.

The nice saying of "Learn from your Mistakes"? Just resistance! The feeling that things aren't good enough. That someone isn't good enough, just doing bad things, and has to get better in order to be enough. Haha!

I labeled that experience "growing up". I read somewhere on this homepage that people said "getting over yourself", and that kinda also describes it well. Since then, things have been distinctly different, like a clear cut from before.

Right as I had had moved past it, I started looking back at the time when I was really "fighting" here, and suddenly realized what an insane amount of shit I had been going through, how I had believed all that suffering to be necessary, but it never was. It's kind of an insane way to put ourselves down, so to speak. We think we are so worthless that all this suffering is normal. That it's normal to be depressed, or that we are depressed because we aren't good enough to get out of it, and it's our own fault after all. But in the end, it's all good. It's just how we are born, there is no choice in it. Really, it's a path forward, always has been, it's good.

Regarding "no self", that has also been coming up a lot over the last few weeks. Right now, I guess things just are as they are. It's good :) In a sense, life is just happening. All the struggle is just imagined, it has always been good.

Jesus, it feels like there is so much more I could have written after the last few weeks, but I guess it's fine for now :) For some reason sitting down to write a reply felt really hard, but it happened now at last. Kinda difficult to put it all into words now, but that's it for now.

Thanks again! :)

Best,
Felix

[Sarah7]

Hey Felix!
Lovely to hear from you.

Regarding "no self", that has also been coming up a lot over the last few weeks. Right now, I guess things just are as they are. It's good :) In a sense, life is just happening. All the struggle is just imagined, it has always been good.

Yes struggle is a big expectation. We come across it A LOT!
Anything in particular you want to look at from your above post?
Are you good to continue?
Hugs Sarah xxx