Some help would be fantastic!

[marcel2]

I think I still get caught up in subtle fantasies about "waking up"; I think "oh, when that happens I can finally do x y and z". Of course i know that is some silly thinking, the "I" wanting to experience the glorious future where it is no longer believed, an obvious paradox. and it's not even that I expect great things, spiritual superpowers or "unity consciousness" or such stuff. it just feels that I've walked too far to go "back", so I must press "forward", but it's unclear were "forward" is. it's easy for the mind to race to spiritual lingo that one has read (thankfully I haven't read that much!). with that said, no regrets and no fear really, just some light frustration and confusion. I guess I'm looking for the big "aha" moment. sometimes it feels like I can smell it... then doubt sets in
there might not be a clear "me" anymore, but there is still... something. but what? sometimes there is no here or there, and then the distinction appears again. always my mind is trying to conceptualize, then realize the futility, then try again etc. perhaps the most incompleteness is still the inability to accept the present moment, judging the inability to accept the present moment.
actually I never really "got" the gate-thing to be honest, this "spiritual" stuff has always felt more like clearing debris

[Ilona]

It doesn't have to be a big aha event. It can be very subtle, almost unnoticeable, only seen when looked back. But never less it's a very deep change which unfolds over time. If there is that expectation of big boom baraboom, that too needs to go.. The journey really is from here to here, no steps need to be taken. You just notice that here now always is right here right now. The rest is all thoughts about what isn't.

Let's look at inability to accept present moment. What happens? Where is it felt? What is that does not accept the moment? What is that can accept or reject? Does reality need you to accept it or it is here manifesting regardless? Does this moment care if you accept or reject it? Right now, what is that can accept it? It's already here!

So is frustration and resistance something that stops the flow or is part of the flow of experiencing?

Look deeper and write what feels true.
Sending love

[marcel2]

no expectation of "big boom"! was/is not expecting an "aha!" but rather "aha..." if it makes any sense. the subtle changes that is only seen when looked back is definitely true of my spiritual stuff prior to us starting this conversation... realizing that you're not bothered by something that used to bother you etc

yes, all that you've written seems true. what is it that rejects, another thought that is arising after another thought, saying "I don't like this". no, reality doesn't not care it seems. it happens, and sometimes I'm happy with it - or happy thoughts and pleasant feelings arise, sometimes not so happy - less happy thoughts and unpleasant feelings. what is it that is rejecting then? another link in the chain, but is the "accepting" also a thought, thought saying "I accept this", is there a subtle difference...
the inability to accept present moment is perhaps more inability to accept certain thoughts and feelings arising in present moment, or getting caught up in thoughts and feelings labeled "rejecting present moment"

[Ilona]

Good stuff. What is that has ability to accept or reject present moment?
Is it a thought that accepts?
Is it a sensation?
Is there a chooser that makes a choise to accept or react?

What do you find?

[marcel2]

in truth it cannot be rejected... so it really isn't the "moment" that is rejected but "reject-thoughts" that arises sometimes... so the quest for accepting present moment is a judging of "reject-thoughts", in a way...
there might be associated sensations, feelings of anxiety, boredom etc arises prior, next to or after the thoughts that won't accept
not really, cause than the chooser would certainly always chose to accept... so sometimes reject-thoughts arise with its feelings (or vice versa), sometimes accept-thoughts arise with its feelings (or vice versa)

[Ilona]

Very good!
Now here is a question for you- so what?
Thoughts arise saying this or that, sensations arise, labelled pleasant or not, so what? Do they require a separate self to arise? Or are they coming regardless of belief in separate entity? Like Christmas is coming reagardless of belief in Santa?

Write what feels true!
Sending love

[marcel2]

"so what?" indeed!
as far as can tell they seem to need no such requirements. the separate self seems to not be needed, in fact it seems to be the other way around, that separate self needs thoughts and sensations to arise

[Ilona]

look at that what you call separate self, what is that? how does it need thoughts and feelings? or is it something that arises as thoughts and feelings + labels me my mine?
what is actually happening? find that separate something and look at it.

write what you see

sending love

[marcel2]

it seems to arise with certain thoughts and feelings, a "common denominator" between certain thoughts and feelings. it seems to exist as that mainly

[Ilona]

Yes, it seems to exist when certain thoughts and feelings arise. What we are looking here for is knowing, seeing in experience. so look till you know. Which thought and which feeling is a separate self? Can you find out, which thought exists as a separate self, I, me? How is this I created?
Keep looking, don't settle on what seems.
Can a thought think, do, feel anything?
Can a feeling feel, do anything?

Examine this and write what you find true,
Sending love

[marcel2]

I don't wanna claim to know yet, so I'll of course keep looking, but I noticed that the separate self exist mainly as two things: a label that attaches and a type of "x" in an equation. i e, fear anxiety etc arises and a lot of the time would not make sense without assuming the "I"/"me"; thoughts + x = fear, so the "x" then is this "me", but it seem to have no real properties outside of this "equation". this is for me a way that it is "created", either through thoughts that consists of the "I" as language and as something that is assumed to exist for certain thoughts and feelings to make sense
a thought cannot think or do or feel, and a feeling can't feel or do

[Ilona]

I noticed that the separate self exist mainly as two things: a label that attaches

what does the label attaches to?
say a few times I I I I, me me me me, what is attached?
where does the thought i come from? is it coming from the same place as all other thoughts? observe thinking process and tell me, are other thoughts coming from i ? which thoughts stick and to what? what is the glue made of?
find some thoughts that trigger emotional reaction, what is happening there, how does reaction happen and what is that reacts?

write what you find out
sending love

[marcel2]

attaches to. or maybe more precise, appears alongside to. when saying it it's language.
the I thought seem to not be fundamentally different from other thoughts
the "glue" is a bit of a mystery, the correlating I-thought sometimes arise and sometimes not.
there is some emotions, and then sometimes I-thought arise.

it struck me though, watching the "I", that if it is supposed to "be" the total sum of all "my" experience it is obviously not that, it is at best some type of abbreviation, a short hand, like the map is not the territory

[Ilona]

it struck me though, watching the "I", that if it is supposed to "be" the total sum of all "my" experience it is obviously not that, it is at best some type of abbreviation, a short hand, like the map is not the territory

wonderful! yes, it's an abbreviation, a label, it's not you!
in experience what does the word I point to?

[marcel2]

what does it point to... it doesn't exactly point to anything particular, it's something that arises sometimes, a piece of language, a "signpost", a "stand-in" for what is(was?) assumed to be "me". but what it actually point to, I'm having trouble answering
i can see certain thoughts and feelings being associated with the "I", but wouldn't go so far as to say that the I points to those thoughts and feelings