Looking to end my suffering caused my attachment to dependan

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,

I think there is a difference between consciousness and soul. Babies are not conscious , they do not have a voice-over , they have a soul. My cat is not rationally plotting how to manipulate me. I think she has a soul. In my opinion butterflies have souls, rocks maybe. I have an immense propensity to love everybody and everything. I think that is soul. And I feel it more and more since I disregard the "self". If there was no soul , perhaps I would feel nothing in not allowing myself to be ruled by the "self" or perhaps I would feel constant rage.

Love,

Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy

I think there is a difference between consciousness and soul. Babies are not conscious , they do not have a voice-over , they have a soul. My cat is not rationally plotting how to manipulate me. I think she has a soul. In my opinion butterflies have souls, rocks maybe. I have an immense propensity to love everybody and everything. I think that is soul. And I feel it more and more since I disregard the "self". If there was no soul , perhaps I would feel nothing in not allowing myself to be ruled by the "self" or perhaps I would feel constant rage.

Thank you. So 'soul' is embracing quite a few things here, isn't it? Reading what you have written, do you think it might be possible to use the word 'life' instead? What do you think? Does that seem fair?

How does the pargraph read now? The sense is subtly changed.

You see, if I look at life at different times I cannot find any thing anywhere that could be identified as a person's soul or an animal's soul. I find aliveness, if that word works for you?

Death can seem very traumatic and threatening if it is viewed as the end of myself or of someone else's self. Do you think that perhaps the whole language of 'souls' comes from a need to imagine the self surviving in some shape or form into an afterlife?

I am not for a moment suggesting either way that there is or is not something that does or does not 'go on' from this life. However I am asking you to look at your thoughts and feelings about soul. Please look to see that it is not possible to find a hidden or implied self behind the scenes as a soul, pulling strings and making things happen?

love

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,

Death can seem very traumatic and threatening if it is viewed as the end of myself or of someone else's self. Do you think that perhaps the whole language of 'souls' comes from a need to imagine the self surviving in some shape or form into an afterlife?

I don't think it is the "self" that has survived , but something has survived into the afterlife. I would love to do away with my "voice over'. Today it really has a grip on me. Cloud technique isn't working. Maybe because I had two glasses of wine. Feel really alone.
Bye for now,
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy

I don't think it is the "self" that has survived , but something has survived into the afterlife. I would love to do away with my "voice over'. Today it really has a grip on me. Cloud technique isn't working. Maybe because I had two glasses of wine. Feel really alone.
Bye for now,

Since there never has been a self why would something need to survive?

Survive what? Without a 'self' to 'die' Where is the one that must 'survive'?

Is there one that struggles to survive in life? Or is that survival a story playing out without a player?

Please understand that I have written this for you. It is not an attempt to persuade you to believe some nonesense. These lines are offered to you as tools for your own liberation. It's up to you to explore.

Love

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hi Jon,

You are saying that there is no death , there is only life. Feeling alone is your self , not life. Everything is life.
I think it would be cooler to call it all love instead of life. Can I ,...please.

Love

Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

You are saying that there is no death , there is only life.

As stated, I am not in the business of creating new beliefs, only in pointing so you can look. Do you understand?

Feeling alone is your self , not life. Everything is life.

Yes, maybe the feeling you describe is to do with a perception / thought of a self that feels alone or separate? You say it is not life but do you see that thoughts and feelings about 'me' appear in life, as much as sunshine or rain or cats? The 'self' may not be real but it's appearance is still part of what happens?

I think it would be cooler to call it all love instead of life. Can I ,...please.

Love is fine for now.


Best wishes,

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,

Feeling alone is your self , not life. Everything is life.

Yes, maybe the feeling you describe is to do with a perception / thought of a self that feels alone or separate? You say it is not life but do you see that thoughts and feelings about 'me' appear in life, as much as sunshine or rain or cats? The 'self' may not be real but it's appearance is still part of what happens?

Perhaps I'm not getting what you are saying but what I meant by feeling alone is "self" or "apparent entity", is that the feelings are just "self" because if we are a part of everything then we are not alone. but that is perhaps a belief system which is not the purpose of this forum.

I like this quote from Canfora, "A thought is as helpful as a houseplant" I do understand that the "self" and all it's emotions are a part of life. And I wanted to add "Yes , but you don't have to be controlled by it, but then again who is being controlled by the self. A friend of mine who suggested the site and went through the process , suggested I give the self a name; however, who is having the dialogue with the person called "self". I like the idea because it distances my emotions from layered apparent entity that feels emotional pain. Things can be observed more objectively.
Hope all is well,
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

Just as a gut response to your post...

A friend of mine who suggested the site and went through the process , suggested I give the self a name; however, who is having the dialogue with the person called "self". .

Not only 'who' is having a diologue with a person called 'self' but what is having such diologue?

Your instinct to question who/what is having the dialogue is spot on.

I like the idea because it distances my emotions from layered apparent entity that feels emotional pain. Things can be observed more objectively

It is good to notice that emotional pain is happening. That part of what you say is true. Don't resist the pain. If it can be allowed in, to be experienced and felt fully, or to flow, it may be seen that there is nothing that is or can be threatened or harmed.

Talk to heart. Thank it very much for being a beautiful, loving heart and ask it if it is happy? Sit quietly for a while until an answer comes and let me know what it says?


love

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,

It is good to notice that emotional pain is happening. That part of what you say is true. Don't resist the pain. If it can be allowed in, to be experienced and felt fully, or to flow, it may be seen that there is nothing that is or can be threatened or harmed.

Talk to heart. Thank it very much for being a beautiful, loving heart and ask it if it is happy? Sit quietly for a while until an answer comes and let me know what it says?

Thank-you for this advice. I will try to do this for the next 2 days, and I'll get back to you on Sunday. I would like to give this exercise some time. Right now heart isn't feeling too good.

I've got 2 days of 12 hrs shifts. Have a good weekend.

love

Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

Sunday is great.

Don't make this simple query of heart into anything more than gently asking the question and listening to see if an answer comes up. It may be clear straight away or it may take a little time but if there is some sort of answer we will pick it up from there. It isn't necessary to do more than this or to try to attempt to change feelings in any way. Just notice.


love

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,

I enjoyed this exercise. I received some bad news this weekend, and after practicing this exercise I was amazed at how well I handled the information. Fundamentally , I think what I feel from my heart is a sense of groundedness.
Most of the emotional content is an extension of the illusions of voice-over, except for rage, that seemed to come from the heart. I work with the public and someone confronted me , I noticed the anger instinctively came from the heart and perhaps the rage was an extension of anger-voice-over.

Hope all is well with you,

Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hello Sandy,

I enjoyed this exercise. I received some bad news this weekend, and after practicing this exercise I was amazed at how well I handled the information. Fundamentally , I think what I feel from my heart is a sense of groundedness.

This is lovely. Let's work in this area for a while and return to consider 'no self' a little later on? The emphasis in the inquiry will feel different for a while.

Please thank Heart, very much, for the sense of groundedness. Let heart know you love it very much and give it a hug.

Just staying with heart, please ask another question. Ask it if it is happy?

Wait for a while quietly to see what answer comes up and then let me know?

If it turns out that the pace of our exchange needs to speed up I'm happy to bat several messages back and forth per day. Just go by feeling. If you want to post more frequently in the coming days feel free.


love

Jon

.

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,
This might sound strange from a self proclaimed romantic but the heart seems neutral. Maybe we are just getting to know each other . Heart isn't depressed. It is constant and I am a pretty constant, reliable person aside from all the drama. At first the heart felt giddy ,but this hasn't been a giddy weekend. When I say the heart feels rage, it is not something I ever act on. It is just a sentiment and I am aware of it. Usually go to another room and start waving the middle finger around towards the person's general direction, silly , immature, but it works for me. This is a particularly busy week for me because it is school break here in Quebec, but I will try to post as often as possible, probably morning and evening. I really appreciate this.

Love
Sandy

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,
I think the heart isn't a point were I feel strong emotions. If I wanted to emote I would have to imagine myself as a small child. I don't know if that helps at all.
Love

Sandy

[JonathanR]

OK Sandy,

Thanks for your posts.

Please remain focused on what comes up in the moment as an answer or response from heart, (or head...this is next). Don't be tempted to embellish or add to any reply from these areas by adding much commentary. Just reflect the relative simplicity of what is said/felt, if anything. I hope that makes sense? What we are interested in is whatever emerges after each question is posed and not an interpretation of it. Just relax into this.

This might sound strange from a self proclaimed romantic but the heart seems neutral. Maybe we are just getting to know each other . Heart isn't depressed. It is constant and I am a pretty constant, reliable person aside from all the drama.

Lovely. Another beautiful answer from heart. Say thank you to heart again for it's constancy. It is not necessary to feel anything different. Heart is doing a great job.

So now ask Head if it is happy? Wait for any answer. As said before an answer may not come straight away but let me know what comes up?


Thank you,

Jon