The Gate

Xain

Don't even bother to reply to the last post. Was just standing in the shower and I suddenly saw something which probably changes everything.

Have to go to work and won't have time to integrate this until later today or tomorrow.

Thanks

Andy

Not clear to the point that I am like someone who has profoundly realised that the whole of life was just a dream and has woken up

Who or what are you referring to that can 'wake up'?
Could an illusory self wake up from an illusory dream?

My own 'take' on what you wrote is . . . you cannot wake up . . you can only realise that you are dreaming.
(Or if you prefer, all that can be done is to realise the emptiness of all things including 'I', the separate self).

I am still with what I said previously. The illusory I is controlling it.

Let me just tweak that slightly from what I am getting from your last reply.
Could we say that both the car and the 'I' are empty? And would you be clear about both?
Therefore rather than an illusory 'I' is capable of driving an inherently existing car, it is more a statement that an illusory car is being driven by an illusory 'I'?
Hence you might say 'I realise the dream-like nature of all things' (kind-of thing).

Part of the problem here is that this inquiry is about the the emptiness of the self. IT seems we can not separate the emptiness of the self from the emptiness of the rest of life. The car, the speed, the straight line are all empty too; all just part of a mind created existence which can not be found upon examination.

Yes indeed ♥
You are absolutely right - And your understanding goes far beyond most of the client's here.
My analogy fails as it assumes a separate car. Therefore, by implication, we assume a separate driver.

Don't even bother to reply to the last post.

Not at all - Your explanation makes complete sense and tells me you grasp this.

This is excellent, Andy.
Let me know what you think to what I put.

Xain ♥

Hi Andy

I haven't heard from you for a number of days now.
Are you settled, or do you wish to continue?
I am about to stop guiding with LU, but I want you to be OK with things before we end here.

Xain ♥

Hi Xain

Sorry, took a few days to sit with what I was arriving at. Sorry to hear you are stopping your guidance.

What you wrote in your last post seems very much in alignment with where I am at with this.

I was hit first of all with the absolute simplicity of there being no Self and therefore it could not be causing anything. I was able to see the obviousness of what you were pointing to all along.

However, I could also see that every thing else is just as empty - nothing is more real than the illusory self. I could see that the reason there is an apparent interaction between mind and life is because it all exists on the same illusory level. We could call it all mind, though even that isn't quite right. Material reality is just as empty as the Self. There actually is no real difference between thought and material reality. The obviousness of this struck me (as opposed to being arrived at intellectually).

I've stayed with this for a few days and it still feels right. I am just left with experience as it is. No big change.

I am not sure if I am adequately explaining myself.

I am though again left with the question, is this is it? How do I know I am done here?

Best Wishes

Andy

What you wrote in your last post seems very much in alignment with where I am at with this.

Then that is pretty much 'it' :-)

I was hit first of all with the absolute simplicity of there being no Self and therefore it could not be causing anything. I was able to see the obviousness of what you were pointing to all along.

If it is clear that the separate self is dependant on thought, then that is enough.
Without thoughts appearing suggesting the existence (and influence, choice and control) of something separate then it can clearly be seen to be 'empty'.

However, I could also see that every thing else is just as empty - nothing is more real than the illusory self.

Yes. You are very wise.
It is a common practise in order to see through the 'illusion of the separate self', that we compare the self, 'I', body-mind or person with something else that is considered to be inherently 'real' as a direct comparison . . . this is purely a temporary measure to break the hold of the mind on the belief in an inherent self. Of course as you rightly suggest, this may lead to a new belief that the separate self is an illusion (empty) but other things have inherent existence (not empty).
I tend to deal with 'other things' later on, but in your case you'd already made the connection.

I am not sure if I am adequately explaining myself.

You explain yourself perfectly.

I am though again left with the question, is this is it? How do I know I am done here?

Well . . . 'You know you are done when you realise there is no 'you to be done' (I mean inherent self).
You may be left with a feeling 'is that it'? Well, yes . . . it really is that simple. No bells or whistles, no ascending on a cloud to heaven, no 67 virgins :-)
But this does not dismiss 'I' as a conventional self, and in conventional terms there will always be other things to examine. The buddah was wise, and could see that breaking the first fetter did not break any of the other ones.
(Although in my opinion, breaking the first one automatically breaks the second one 'doubt and uncertainty about the teachings' - It may be that many of the sutras now have more meaning for you - that you can understand them more clearly and have an easier grasp of what is being pointed to.

There is more to be contemplated. For example 'other people' . . . if there is no inherent choice or control 'here' then is there inherent choice or control 'there'. Did my guide Xain have any choice or control in anything that he wrote as a reply to me?
Examine the fifth fetter - If there is no inherent choice or control for 'others' then what is 'ill will' based on?

If you are interested in joining LU and chatting with other people who have been guided and 'gone through the gate', I will need you to answer the six questions which are part of the process.
You don't have to though - It's your call. But if it interests you, then that is possible.

Xain ♥

Hi Xain

Before answering the rest of your post, I just want to ask about this:

ell . . . 'You know you are done when you realise there is no 'you to be done' (I mean inherent self).

At times that "knowing" is very very clear. At other times it is almost forgotten. I have to remind myself and look again. I get there is no one to know and no one to forget and no one to have a permanent knowing. All of that is a knowing/seeing too.

Is this a knowing/seeing that becomes clearer, absolutely clear. Or does it sound like I still haven't seen clearly enough? As I write, it sounds like a stupid question because I know there is no one there asking the question, yet experience has shown me that tomorrow might be a different story. It doesn't feel like I could totally believe in a Self again though.

Andy

Whilst I fully understand and appreciate what you are saying, I must simply point back to your own understanding.

At times that "knowing" is very very clear. At other times it is almost forgotten.

Is this a knowing/seeing that becomes clearer, absolutely clear

Or does it sound like I still haven't seen clearly enough?

Forgotten by who? Clearer for who?
What is this 'I' that hasn't seen clearly?
What inherent 'I' has ever seen anything or realised anything anyway?

Let's put this another way, as I am certain this kind of questioning isn't assisting and I know you've already mentioned the answers.

Even if it thoughts appears which suggest there is an inherent self, is there really? Ever?
'It may be different tomorrow'? Are you suggesting that there is no inherent self now, but there will be an inherent self tomorrow? Or just thoughts popping up saying so?
Could all this be 'just happening' - Just like everything else?

Let's look at things on the relative level.
The more you examine your thoughts, the more this is going to 'sink in'.
The more you contemplate what you've found, the more that things will drop away by themselves.

It doesn't feel like I could totally believe in a Self again though.

Excellent! Can you see that none of this would be possible without a break-through realisation that there is no inherently existing self?
We can talk about 'conditioning' - I don't know what age you are, but you've had XX number of years assuming there was an inherently existing self. Do you think that this sort of mental conditioning / thought pattern is going to disappear over night?

Xain ♥

Thank you for your recent replies - they have clarified things for me and left me satisfied that my "seeing" is authentic.

What really made a difference was sitting in meditation and suddenly realising that the whole realm of mind, including thought and the "I" sense had no real solidity or permanence. It was seen to be a transitory, ephemeral nothing.

Yes indeed! Bingo!!!!! :-) Great replies, Andy.
Here are the last three of the six questions:

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if possible.

6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?

Xain ♥

Q4: The illusion of a separate self is simply an idea created by thought which then gives us the illusory experience of being separate from the experience of life, as if there is an I experiencing things separate to itself. We identify with thought as if it is real. When does it start? There would not seem to be a starting point because time is just another concept of the I. There never ever was an I so it could never have had a starting point anyway.

Q5. Because there never ever was an I, how could there be decision, intention, free will, choice or control. Nothing makes things happen. They just happen. It is analogous to a dream, where it appears that there are real people making things happen, yet all along it is just an appearance of things happening and just an appearance of people making decisions. Given that there is no one there to make things happen, no one can be responsible for what happens. Whatever the case, there is no one there to really take responsibility any way.

Q6. As discussed before we can not separate our experience of the world into the illusion of the self and the real world. Everything is empty - nothing upon examination can be found to truly exist. This makes the analogy of the dream even more relevant. Stuff seems to happen and will continue to do so, apparently experienced by a dream like character. We could say the whole thing exists at the level of thought only, as the external world exists by mere label only and is dependent upon the mind just to be experienced.

The dream continues, but because it is seen for what it is, and because the illusion of Self is no longer believed, we can just let things happen without believing we can influence them or are responsible for them. Consequently we start to experience a unity and a letting go.

I think that is about it Xain. Does it ring true?

Best Wishes

Andy

Thank you for your answers, Andy.
Sit tight. Other guides may have further questions. I will get back to you shortly.

Xain ♥

A question from one of the guides

You seem to be saying that you see, (that you've realised no separate self) but could flip back into self later.
Is this true? How do you know this?
Could you say more about this area and what you understand to be the case.

Xain ♥

Hi Xain

You seem to be saying that you see, (that you've realised no separate self) but could flip back into self later.
Is this true? How do you know this?
Could you say more about this area and what you understand to be the case.

This would be something said much earlier in our conversation.

It is now seen that there is no separate self, even though the illusion of the separate self continues to appear (but it to no one). There is no self to flip back to later because it never ever existed.

Andy

Thank you, Andy.

Some further questions:
What if taking responsibility happens? Would that mean that you are 'back in the dream'?
What is 'taking responsibility'? Is it necessarily an aspect of believing in a separate self?

Xain ♥

Hi Xain

Some further questions:
What if taking responsibility happens? Would that mean that you are 'back in the dream'?
What is 'taking responsibility'? Is it necessarily an aspect of believing in a separate self?

The questions are red herrings. There is NO SELF that can take responsibility, and there is NO SELF that can return to the dream or wake up from the dream. NO SUCH self ever existed. Everything else is just stuff happening all by itself.

Thoughts arise and thoughts just happen. Taking responsibility is just another thought concept. It appears that someone takes responsibility but actually it is just thoughts happening. No doubt, "I" will apparently continue to take responsibility but because it is now known that the SELF was just a belief/concept it is also known that taking responsibility is something that is just happening (by NO ONE).

Andy

Thank you for your replies, Andy.
All the other guides are confident that you've seen through the illusion, and so am I.

This guidance is at an end, but I don't want you to be left feeling 'hanging'.
There may still be questions or doubts that surface - That's perfectly normal. You can always message me on the forum.
Also, you may like to be added to our Facebook groups (if you are on Facebook). There are groups for LU as a whole, new arrivals for people who've newly had this realisation, further looking and examination etc
If you would like me to add you to those groups, please send me your Facebook name or page link in a private message (Click the red name 'Xain' and then choose 'Send Private Message'.

I wish you the very best for the future, Andy, and thank you for a very enjoyable conversation
Xain ♥

Hi Xain

Well, it has been an interesting journey. There were several times when I thought there was no point in continuing. Only your excellent guiding kept me on track and brought me to the simplicity of seeing through the illusion.

Xain, I can not thank you enough. I very much appreciate your kindness and time spent helping me (which I imagine must have been frustrating at times) . Your guidance really is very "sharp and accurate". I feel as if I have been in the presence of a Zen Master.

Wishing you well too in whatever you may be doing in the future, which hopefully involves guiding people to this truth for which you undoubtedly have an aptitude.

Best Wishes

Andy