Looking for a final push

[Raweir]

Can you give me an example of the thought that has power?

When a thought about what to say is preceded by words that are said.
When a thought is preceded by an emotion.

I know that the causation between the two things is implied, I just think this needs to be noticed more, I guess it doesn't go away overnight.

Is all on that screen of perception? Even prior thought? Is anything NOT perception?

Everything is perception (inc. thoughts), perception is all there is.

OK – so now spend some time tracking down Daniel! What is it that makes up Daniel now? Is it thought again? Is it habit – of thought and reaction?

It seems correct to say that Daniel is a collective term for the appearance and behaviour of the body and personality.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

Can you give me an example of the thought that has power?

When a thought about what to say is preceded by words that are said.

Do you actually ‘know’ what word is going to come out? Have you ever experienced words coming out that made no sense what so ever?

I noticed this today at some point where I was 'deciding' or not to have some food. The thoughts kept coming like 'I should have something', 'No I shouldn't I'm not hungry', 'Why do I want to eat if I'm not hungry'. And then there was a critical point where the decision had to be made (I was in the kitchen making a coffee) and it seemed like the thoughts didn't know what the body was going to do next, the thoughts were saying 'Yes I'm going to eat something' and also 'No I won't I'm not hungry', it was like they were covering all eventualities so as to seem in control, but the body was just in the act of making a coffee.

Now as you looked at control and decisions here – look at above thoughts and words and below - thoughts and emotions.

When a thought is preceded by an emotion.

What makes the connection here? Apart from one apparently following the other what other direct experience is there? However devoid of story – what is there?

I guess it doesn't go away overnight.

What would want anything to go out of experience?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Do you actually ‘know’ what word is going to come out? Have you ever experienced words coming out that made no sense what so ever?

All I experience of 'knowing' is the thought of the words and then the words, but the thought of the words isn't there most of the time. So most of the time the words are spoken spontaneously, the other times it appears that the thought causes the words.

What makes the connection here? Apart from one apparently following the other what other direct experience is there? However devoid of story – what is there?

There is nothing to suggest that the connection is there, just an assumption.

What would want anything to go out of experience?

Bad wording, I meant that it's not going to be seen immediately, it needs to be looked at again and again (the nature of thought).

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
Still with these tasks.
So still looking at thought. Watch for where control is implied. Watch the process, the sound of it, the order or it. Watch where thought comes in. Watch what it says – for instance is it constantly reaffirming? Keep looking for how thought implies control – then check – is that really what is experienced.

Staying with direct experience – is it possible to not be with direct experience? Notice seeing and hearing still happen. Play around with perception. Stare at your hand, stare out the window, people gaze. Whatever. Is all on that screen of perception? Even prior thought?

Still spending some time tracking down Daniel! What is it that makes up Daniel now? Is it thought again? Is it habit – of thought and reaction? Don’t jump on that too quick – have a dig around.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

It's difficult to see that thoughts don't influence the body.

Last night I had the thought to finish reading a book that I started about a year ago, the thought came while I was reading about something related to the content of the book, but I hadn't thought about this book for ages, and I ended up reading it.

It just seems more true to say that the thought influenced the reading of the book rather than it was a massive coincidence. But I realise there is no evidence that the thought did influence the reading of the book.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

It just seems more true to say that the thought influenced the reading of the book rather than it was a massive coincidence. But I realise there is no evidence that the thought did influence the reading of the book.

Lovely example. Well I suppose keep looking at other examples – see how many thoughts seem to lead to doing and how many don’t. E.g. I can tell my body to get out of bed on a Saturday morning – but it rarely happens! And then…… suddenly movement happens and Im out! Also watch for where in the doing process that thought comes in.

If thought had power you could make yourself happy NOW – this instant, no hesitation. Try it!

If thought controlled all doing – then you would hear a running commentary for every little movement – wouldn’t you?

Movement moves, hearing moves, seeing moves, attention moves, everything moves and so does thought. It can appear to flow with and it can appear to flow against – but its still moving. Watch its movements. Sometimes it appears to control and other times its somewhere else. There is no half control – there is only full or none!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Lovely example. Well I suppose keep looking at other examples – see how many thoughts seem to lead to doing and how many don’t. E.g. I can tell my body to get out of bed on a Saturday morning – but it rarely happens! And then…… suddenly movement happens and Im out! Also watch for where in the doing process that thought comes in.

Yeah I notice a lot of thoughts of doing without the doing happening and then when the doing doesn't happen the thought will say 'Actually. no I'm not (going to do it)'

If thought controlled all doing – then you would hear a running commentary for every little movement – wouldn’t you?

Yeah most of the time there is no doing thought.

More noticing.

xx

[Sarah7]

Fantastic noticing here Daniel - keep looking!
Big Hugs Sarah xxx

[Sarah7]

How are you doing Daniel? Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Fine, nothing to report really.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
It's difficult to see that thoughts don't influence the body.
So what is being noticed here? Have you found any control yet? Or just thoughts suggesting control? What is being noticed?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Just thoughts suggesting control, the only reference for control is thoughts. But this doesn't feel like anything, it doesn't change anything, I was expecting that to experience the lack of free will would be different to believing in free will. All I really wanted was to understand, so that I could control.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

Just thoughts suggesting control, the only reference for control is thoughts. But this doesn't feel like anything, it doesn't change anything, I was expecting that to experience the lack of free will would be different to believing in free will.

Would that be a thought again? Can you see it? This thought wants something other than what is! And without this thought - would there be an issue?

All I really wanted was to understand, so that I could control.

Thoughts! Can you see this also! What actually can a thought control? Look, look and look again! Whatever is believed to happen is what…..? Whatever is thought to happen is what ….? Whatever thoughts put into words is what …..? All thoughts?????????
What can a thought ‘know’? If it cant ‘know’ then how can it understand? Does a thought, like everything else, arise in what is?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Yeah they're thoughts, they just come and go, can't stop them, can't manipulate them, so what's the big deal with thoughts?

What is all this about? It seems to me like I'm just back to the beginning, before I knew anything of non-duality. Sense perceptions and thoughts came and went, then I was led towards this thing called non-duality, and it was going to solve all my problems, gradually it was realised that that wouldn't happen, and now, sense perceptions and thoughts come and go. Before, things were a problem (for thought) and now, things are a problem (for thought).

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

Yeah they're thoughts, they just come and go, can't stop them, can't manipulate them, so what's the big deal with thoughts?

That would be another thought – no? One that’s wants to stop them, another to manipulate them, another that wants to know the big deal? Is this thoughts still trying to understand and manipulate? What is under that? Anything?

What is all this about? It seems to me like I'm just back to the beginning, before I knew anything of non-duality. Sense perceptions and thoughts came and went, then I was led towards this thing called non-duality, and it was going to solve all my problems, gradually it was realised that that wouldn't happen, and now, sense perceptions and thoughts come and go. Before, things were a problem (for thought) and now, things are a problem (for thought).

This is below all my posts: ‘If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are’. What is it pointing to?
The problems show you where to look for ‘I’. They point to what needs looking at. Where ever there is a story attached – bring it here or write it down. Look at it. What is thought a problem for? Where is this ‘thing’ or ‘you’ that has a problem?
Did you expect thoughts to go quietly? Are they having a go because you haven’t got it yet – or this isn’t what it is supposed to be? LOL.
Hugs Sarah xxx