Looking for guide :)

[Pete777]

I will look into this. Will be away for the rest of the day.

[codyjdennis]

Thank you for letting me know. Take your time :)

[Pete777]

I'm going to give you a few exercises to do... please tell me where you feel any stickiness or confusion in any of this.

The act of checking is still a sticky point for me. Even though you tell me that I don’t have to conclude there is a belief that only an I would check in the first place.

In general I feel the urge to postpone the exercises. I think it is because I always fail with the looking. Because I don't look, I instead try to distract myself or deny the belief in the I. I can never make this: content of thought believed. Where is this I? “I can’t find it” – more contents of thoughts believed (implying an I).

What can be done to break this spell. This is sought solved by denying. This does of course not work. The content of the deny-thought implies an I and is believed. So basically I constant get “evidence” that I’m doing this. I guess this spell is broken by checking if the thoughts match reality, but since also the process of checking brings up these thoughts I feel like I’m stuck in limbo.

What is happening in this moment? With your five senses, what do you experience? Sights, sounds, tastes, smells, tactile sensations, even thoughts. Just list what there is going on, don’t draw conclusions.

Initially: feel like I can't check this because I try to get the correct result instead of really checking. Will check anyway since you ask me to:

What can be known for sure is a way to ask the question that seems helpful. Seeing happens, hearing happens, feeling happens, movement happens, breathing happens, tasting happens. Thinking happens. Is there a thinker of thoughts? this last questions is hard to answer truthfully. the contents of thoughts sure imply a thinker. but In some moments I feel that this thinker can't be known for sure.

In other moments the act of doubting this gives a feeling of having proved that there's an I, and a corresponding feeling of failure. only an I would have the motivation to check if this is true - in hope of a better experience. There is also an incentive to just get done with this task fast, and there is more time used to write this than to check this out (because of the percieved negative feedback)

The checking seems to work best if I don't try to deny the thinking - but go full into it as I really believe in it - and then check if there's anything but thought. After having done this for some time there is more certainty that the only thing that can be known is that there is thoughts – a thinker can’t be known for sure (still feels like a thinker – but it is seen that this is a thought and then it is logically concluded that it can’t be – this may be an answer from thoughts).

Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought “I hear that.” Now just pay attention to how sound happens. Take your time with it. Are you doing the hearing, or is it just happening?

This is done In a rush, because I feel like I have to find the moments between the I claiming it.

In these moments only hearing can be known for sure- not the hearer.

As you go about your day today and move around, see if you can find that there is a self moving things around.
Look for this I.
As you talk, walk, drive, eat, type, ..anything..check it out.
Is there a self living your life?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?
You don't have to decide or believe anything at all, just look at whats true for you.
In all that you are doing today, just keep looking at this. keep the focus on this.
Keep looking to see if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

I’ve been distracted much of the time. When checking walking there is no controller found. The expectations may still be a sticky point for me, even though I know I have to throw them away. Either that, or the problem is just belief in the thoughts that comments.

Sorry if this text got a little long.

-Pete

[codyjdennis]

I assure you this is not about being right or wrong.

I always fail with the looking

Question this. "I always fail with the looking". Can you absolutely know for 100% certainty that you're failing?

Seeing happens, hearing happens, feeling happens, movement happens, breathing happens, tasting happens. Thinking happens.

YES! Awesome :)

Is there a thinker of thoughts? this last questions is hard to answer truthfully. the contents of thoughts sure imply a thinker. but In some moments I feel that this thinker can't be known for sure.

I love what you wrote, what can be known for sure?. Wonderful :)
Using this same way of going about it.
Can you know for sure, with 100% certainty in direct experience that there is a thinker?
(I saw you wrote later that you can't find it

In these moments only hearing can be known for sure- not the hearer.

Yes! Again great looking.

Either that, or the problem is just belief in the thoughts that comments.

It's just the belief that thoughts hold reality. Even expectations are just thoughts.
Just take a deep breath and relax a bit. You're doing great Pete.
---
When you have a moment since thoughts are a sticking point for you take a deeper look here.
Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:

Where thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

Is there an 'I' that has ownership of thoughts?
What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

Do you think thoughts or you are just being thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Please go through these questions and answer ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Take your time.

[Pete777]

I used well over 15 minutes on this. Does it imply that the answers come from thoughts?

Question this. "I always fail with the looking". Can you absolutely know for 100% certainty that you're failing?

No, I can only know that my expectations are not being met.

Can you know for sure, with 100% certainty in direct experience that there is a thinker?

One way to do this is to use thoughts that have no meaning “lalala”. In this situation the content of thought doesn’t imply a thinker. And the conclusion that a thinker can’t be known for sure is close. Sometimes thought’s about a thinker arrives in between the nonsensical thoughts – this makes the conclusion harder to verify.

I therefore try with normal thought’s: “I am here now” etc. The way I check if there is a thinker seems to be by seeing if the content of thought is implying a thinker. “I am here now” implies a thinker. I can doubt it – this gives a feeling of having proven that there is a me. The next step is to question this proof. Is it certain? Well the proof is still a thought or a feeling so I can’t be 100 % sure that there is a thinker – no.

Where thoughts come from?

Thoughts say they come from me – the thinker. In DE it doesn’t feel correct to say that thoughts come from anywhere. It’s just suddenly there. Want to add that believing that thoughts come from me happens all the time.

Where are they going?

Seems strange to say that they go “somewhere”. A thought is there and then it’s not.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

It can seem like it. I experimented with some thoughts and thought “mon”. After that I found that “mon” can be the first part in Mona (as in Mona Lisa). This may also be done with other thoughts- say a few letters, and then after find a matching ending. On the other hand one could say that “mon” is a thought in itself?

If I on the other hand just have a random thought it will always be known before I can stop it. it seems that the ending of the word pops up even though I try to suppress it. “Eleph” – “ant” comes after. If I try to distract myself it still pops up. But it seems it might be possible to distract oneself successfully.

It doesn’t seem too hard with sentences. “I will go out and” – the sentence can stop here.

The last angle I did was to just sit passively and wait for thoughts and see if I could stop them. It seems impossible. The whole word is known before I can distract myself. This shook my belief in the controller of thoughts a bit.

I’d appreciate a response to the different angles of testing this.

Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?

If I’m just passively waiting the thought that comes up is impossible to predict. “Banana”, “car”, “tree”, “hooligan” etc. If I say the next thought will be “banana” it also might be wrong – something entirely different may come up. But if I really intend to think banana and say “I will think only the word banana now” – I can do this for some time.

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

It seems I can choose to refuse or suppress them but I can’t stop them from appearing. It also seems that some of the negative thoughts are “wanted” – some kind of self-hatred or something. These thoughts can be refused, and with time it seems they can disappear. If I try to just have positive thoughts I can repeat a mantra for quite some time.

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

“I am the thinker of this” – is a thought. I haven’t found anything but thoughts, sensations, and content of thought implying an I. The content of thought is still believed when it’s arising.

“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?

different responses come up: the one who looks through the eyes, “I”, sensations. The one that sees can’t see itself – I am that.

What is the thinker of thoughts?

Same answer as above I guess.

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

Nothing is found but sensations or thoughts in DE.

Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Yea I guess. Here comes the problem with looking without denying again. Is it correct that it is good to really feel into the belief first – and not to deny the things indicating an I?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?

Well, same as above – there seems to be possible to control thoughts to a certain extent. In a way that has similiarities with the ability to hold the breath. It can be done to a certain extent-

Is there an 'I' that has ownership of thoughts?

When reaching these questions there is an inclination to just wait until tomorrow. It seems like the I might be a part of thoughts and not the owner.

What do the thoughts belong to? What owns them?

Well if I is just a thought then nothing owns the thoughts. Or more precise: I don’t know what owns them.

Do you think thoughts or you are just being thought?

The latter seems more plausible in DE when repeating “I” “I” “I” “I”.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

It seems hard – because the act of resisting puts focus on the “I”. It might be possible if relaxed and distracted. If it’s read somewhere it will just pop up.

Feel I didn’t do the last questions real justice. Tell me if you’d like me to redo some of it.

[codyjdennis]

Pete,

Thoughts say they come from me – the thinker. In DE it doesn’t feel correct to say that thoughts come from anywhere. It’s just suddenly there.

Yes! They just appear & then fall away.

A thought is there and then it’s not.

Yes :)

On the other hand one could say that “mon” is a thought in itself?

Yep! haha. Mon is another thought.

The whole word is known before I can distract myself. This shook my belief in the controller of thoughts a bit.

Nicce!

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Maybe a clearer question to look into is: If we could choose our thoughts, wouldn't we just having loving peaceful thoughts all the time?

It seems like the I might be a part of thoughts and not the owner.

:) Look deeper into this. You're very close. Is I just another thought?

Is it correct that it is good to really feel into the belief first – and not to deny the things indicating an I?

We are not denying thoughts. Denying thoughts is actually another thought lol. We are just checking in experience right now if what thought says has any true reality. That is not denying thought. Thought is ok. It's very useful actually. Without it I couldn't talk to you.

However, thoughts are at BEST pointers/symbols towards reality. For instance the word money in and of itself has no reality. What it points to is reality.


The word Water points to the actual object in experience...
The word Computer points to the object.
The word Money points to the object.
The word Coffee points to the object.
The word Sound points to the experience of hearing something
Does the word I point to anything in reality?

-----
You did great Pete. Take your time with my questions above.

[Pete777]

:) Look deeper into this. You're very close. Is I just another thought?

Haven't looked so much today. Just looked at what's happening when walking. "I" is a thought, but there is still a belief that the eye can't see itself - that's why it isn't found. Does the looking need special levels of concentration? Or should I use a special amount of time?

At some points there is some fear - but it's not high levels, and I don't know if it's placebo or real fear of losing the I.

Does the word I point to anything in reality?

I can't find anything. But indirectly I can see that it is still assumed - there's an I that can't find the I. And an I that's hoping for liberation.

There seems to be an expectation of something happening - an expecation of a clear seeing of the absence - that it will show itself. When I look in the same way for santa it's kinda like repeating santa and waiting for something to happen.

[codyjdennis]

Does the looking need special levels of concentration?

I wouldn't say a special level of concentration but you have to have a desire to see it. It's right here for you to see.
This is always a nice clear video to take a look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyNwhK2Ur1c#t=60

At some points there is some fear - but it's not high levels, and I don't know if it's placebo or real fear of losing the I.

Look directly at the fear when it arises. Is there anything behind it?

And I assure you, you will be OK. The only thing that will be seen is that 'you' are just a thought. It's actually already the case right now and always has been & you have been perfectly ok.

I can't find anything.

Great :)

But indirectly I can see that it is still assumed - there's an I that can't find the I. And an I that's hoping for liberation.

What I put in bold...
Is it true? Can you know that for 100% certainty?

Again, is there actually an I looking? Or is just looking happening? Where is this I in DE?

---
Just wanted to mention that expectations about the seeing can be one of the biggest blocks to see what is already the case.

If you would like feel free to list your expectations and we can look at them directly.

- Cody

[Pete777]

Look directly at the fear when it arises. Is there anything behind it?

Haven't had too much fear, but there doesn't seem to be anything behind it.

But indirectly I can see that it is still assumed - there's an I that can't find the I. And an I that's hoping for liberation.

What I put in bold... Is it true? Can you know that for 100% certainty?

I don't know - but it sure feels like it!! feel stuck. Today I'm really frustrated of this. Been on here since august and still no seeing. WWhy can't I just get this??
I'm looking -seeing a thought come - thinking: got you. Identified with the last thought............................

Again, is there actually an I looking? Or is just looking happening? Where is this I in DE?

No doer is found... but still no conviction of no me


Will post about expecations later

[codyjdennis]

Been on here since august and still no seeing. WWhy can't I just get this??
I'm looking -seeing a thought come - thinking: got you. Identified with the last thought............................

To be honest you may have already glimpsed it, but it is SO simple and obvious it's almost literally unbelievable.

Please post about your expectations when you have a moment..and we will have a look. They can be a big block to seeing.

[Pete777]

Looking
The proof is all the time the thoughts that I believe. I can’t find anything in DE that’s the speaker of the thoughts.


Expectations
Was hard to really know my expectations, but this is what has come up so far:

have to surrender/give myself up - I can't do it

first have a Clear Picture of what I'm looking for

it will be hard to see

Expect it will be a knowing – each time checked

It has to be seen in a short amount of time – some seconds. If it takes longer it’s only thinking and it’s a fail.

[Pete777]

and obviously expect the result to be that there's no me to be bad or wrong - only thoughts. So suffering will stop

[codyjdennis]

Thank you for your post. Just letting you know I will respond in the morning and well take a look at these expectations.

- Cody

[codyjdennis]

I can’t find anything in DE that’s the speaker of the thoughts.

Great :)

Thank you for sharing your expectations

have to surrender/give myself up - I can't do it

What if there is no you to give up in the first place? :)

first have a Clear Picture of what I'm looking for

Maybe we can clarify a little bit what we are looking for.

Together we are looking to see if this individual (I, me, my, myself etc) is real in actual experience. This means the undeniable experience we are both having at this moment.

We can both agree with 100% certainty that the, I, is in thought. But is it anywhere else? Can it actually be found other than in thought.

When I have pointed, asking if you can sense thought I'm really asking if it's at all possible that thought is tangible. For example, I am here typing this to you at my desk. I can see the desk, feel the desk etc. It can be experienced. This is what we call real. Real is that which is undeniably here. I can say "this desk exists" or "this desk does not exist". Or even "I hate this desk". Yet, the desk doesn't change. It doesn't disappear. It's undeniably here, totally unaffected by thought.

But to clarify even further, I can experience what the word desk points to. I cannot experience the word desk itself. It's just a thought.

Answer this question for me Pete: Does anything in your experience tell you that's what the object is?
For example: Does the object computer tell you it's a computer? Is it even telling you it's an object? Or is thought just labeling all of that? You can do this with anything. Is the sky telling you it's sky? Does a tree insist it's a tree?

it will be hard to see

This could be what is blocking you from seeing. Seeing this is actually the opposite of difficult (though it can appear to be difficult). Seeing this is really nothing special. It's not something like we have heard in spirituality that it's only for a select few.

It IS in everyones experience. It's just overlooked. We have assumed this I to be real our whole life. It's just an assumption. It's not right or wrong.

So were here checking together if our own experience tells us that it actually exists besides in thought.

This is the great thing about it Pete. You need no opinion from someone else to check into your own experience. I often tell people to trust their own experience. I'm not looking for you to believe anything I say. When I point just do your best to check into your own experience. Trust yourself. You have had some great insights already.

It has to be seen in a short amount of time – some seconds. If it takes longer it’s only thinking and it’s a fail.

It's not so much that it needs to be seen in a short amount of time.

Actually, all responses go through thinking so it's not so much that. It's that (as I've said a few times in this post) we need to check into our own undeniable direct experience and report back from there.

I hope this helps a bit Pete. Please let me know if I can clarify anything.

Have a good day,
Cody

[Pete777]

thanks man :)

will spend some time with this.