Looking for a guide

[Jiten76]

Is the object ever separate from awareness? Does thought create real separation?

I am not able to see this clearly in D.E. can you please guide.

when I look at a object, empty space surrounding it and awareness is experienced as one but when the attention goes to the object, it is not experienced same as the experience of space/awareness. also seeing metal and plastics have different exp...

logically they are not separate and cant be. seeing is awareness. they are not separate but awareness and object do not appear to be one/same..

one good thing has happened is I am more aware of space around objects.

What doesn't disappear? The object?
Look at the object, close your eyes.
Where is the object with your eyes closed?
Is it anything more than a thought story?

when I close my eyes, object and everything visible disappears. what does it mean? awareness is there with eyes open and awareness is there with eyes closed. with eyes closed object disappear.....with eyes open awareness is aware of objects and with eyes closed object disappears (for sure for awareness)

Is it anything more than a thought story?

you mean objects?

This is not clearly seen..no objection to the idea but not seen in direct experience...but I am open to see and notice..will continue working on this..can you please guide

Can you find the experience of sleep?
Or just a thought about sleep?
And a thought about 'dreams'?

No I cant find experience of sleep. I find thought about sleep and other very persistent thoughts that yes I slept, I cant ignore, its so obviously true...stop fooling yourself...and a thought yes I believe it....I don't want to believe that I did not sleep...I will not believe it...I slept for sure...and this is my final position on this...

yes...a thought about dream too.

Is there even an 'I' that does or doesn't sleep?

sense of 'I' is there for sure....this sense of 'I' seems a bundle of conclusions, positions, understandings which are assumptions about what I want...preference...acceptable to me...what i need to avoid....finally this bundle of energy prevents from seeing THIS...just THIS...I can sense THIS but have not experienced it.

Can you find anything other than this awakeness, here and now?

1) sensations in my chest 2) thoughts 3) objects 4) movement of hands...........but all these are appearances....what is continuous is what should be focused on?

Thoughts create a duel appearance, where things can be opposite to each other, black & white, on and off, true and false, known and unknown, aware and unaware and so on.

But despite what appears to be, there is only THIS.

So thoughts create the experience of unawareness? so i have never been lost in thoughts ever. so hard to accept..infact it is not accepted.

Is there an opposite to THIS? Or can you only ever find THIS?

fundamentally there are two opposites in experience. when attention is free and when attention is not free ( in thoughts, arguments etc)..........my understanding is that free attention is the experience of THIS......but there are moments (not verifiable)(but firmly believed) when attention is not free.....two state of attention (free and locked) is true??

experience of casual thoughts, experience of opinion based thought and experience of no thought.....

experience of opinion based thoughts (story) is where attention is lost (not verifiable)...but when suddenly it is realized oh i was lost in thinking. this realization is not simply a thought occuring..........but the expansion or brightness or freedom of attention is experienced...then thoughts says it is unquestionably true that there was unawareness moments ago and now there is awareness...attention was lost in thought.

then many thoughts about loss of time and what next needs to be done...need to hurry up to finish what is more important etc goes on......

Is 'past' anything more than an idea appearing now?

No...past is nothing more than an idea/image appearing now without an opposition to it...when i answer this question...resistance comes-up with a fogginess of seeing.....its like intellect does not want to see, accept and conclude this for once and for all.

Is there anything that is not happening now?
You could say that Woodstock is not happening now
But that is a thought happening now.

will get back.

Thanks
Jitendra

[Jiten76]

So is awareness ever 'off'?
Or is it always 'on'?

not able to come to conclusive answer. If awareness goes off what will know..and if awareness comes back...what will see it coming..

but this does not conclude that awareness never goes off.

Thoughts see things from the point of view of a timeline. So ideas like 'past', 'happened', 'true and false' spring up.

thought see things....this is interesting...I will try to observe.

what is the relation of true and false with POV of a timeline??.......is it that nothing is true because everything is appearance? appearance is not true. only what is, is true?

Thoughts create a duel appearance, where things can be opposite to each other, black & white, on and off, true and false, known and unknown, aware and unaware and so on.
But despite what appears to be, there is only THIS.

"appearance" and "is ness" are separate?........what appears and disappears is not one with what is. it is not separate also with what is? only what is is. that's why appearance is called dream?

also even awareness and unawareness is created by thought? I just wish I could be without thought for 2 hours and see the truth of all these once and for all....

Is 'past' anything more than an idea appearing now?

This is clear...there is no past. only thought appears now.

I was watching a lady walking...all the while watching, there is no experience of past even when being aware...but the moment I looked somewhere else thought appears and say I was watching the lady before..

but what is the implication????? thought says I did watch the lady along with images (so called recalled past). though there is no past now....did it happen?

I think thoughts about past are believed in because of causal/consequences....if the appearances do not have any causal connection, mind would be willing to see thought about past as thought appearing now instead of believing it.

Is there anything that is not happening now?
You could say that Woodstock is not happening now
But that is a thought happening now.

So Woodstock event and thought about event are both appearance. because both are appearance they are same??

does the question imply "happening" is same as appearance? so
1) everything that I believed to be 'is there', is appearance only?

2) whatever is not happening (or appearing) is not there???????????

both are difficult to accept by mind..

Thanks
Jiten

[Tao]

when I look at a object, empty space surrounding it and awareness is experienced as one but when the attention goes to the object, it is not experienced same as the experience of space/awareness. also seeing metal and plastics have different exp...

logically they are not separate and cant be. seeing is awareness. they are not separate but awareness and object do not appear to be one/same..

one good thing has happened is I am more aware of space around objects.

Hi jiten.

What is the difference, in DE, between the object and the space around the object?

In fact, what is 'space' in DE?
Is there such a thing?
When you look at the room in front of you, isnt it all just one seemless experience of light/colour?

when I close my eyes, object and everything visible disappears. what does it mean? awareness is there with eyes open and awareness is there with eyes closed. with eyes closed object disappear.....with eyes open awareness is aware of objects and with eyes closed object disappears (for sure for awareness)

So in DE, objects come and go, awareness is the only constant.
Can you find an experience where awareness is not there?

No I cant find experience of sleep. I find thought about sleep and other very persistent thoughts that yes I slept, I cant ignore, its so obviously true...stop fooling yourself...and a thought yes I believe it....I don't want to believe that I did not sleep...I will not believe it...I slept for sure...and this is my final position on this...

So thought is trying to hold onto the 'I' that sleeps. Can thought conclusions or sensations sleep, or do they just come and go?

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sense of 'I' is there for sure....this sense of 'I' seems a bundle of conclusions, positions, understandings which are assumptions about what I want...preference...acceptable to me...what i need to avoid....finally this bundle of energy prevents from seeing THIS...just THIS...I can sense THIS but have not experienced it.

It is impossible to not experience THIS.
These words are THIS
And undeniably, you know of these words right now.
It doesn't matter what THIS shows up as, you are always aware of this.
Even if this shows up as a bunch of conclusions and assumptions about a 'me', that come and go
THIS still is, and you are aware of it,
If you werent , you would be able to see these conclusions and assumptions.
But you have just described, experienced them.
Is there anything you don't experience?

Can you find anything other than this awakeness, here and now?

1) sensations in my chest 2) thoughts 3) objects 4) movement of hands...........but all these are appearances....what is continuous is what should be focused on?

Appearances yes, yet appearances that reveal your awakeness, because you know of them.

So thoughts create the experience of unawareness? so i have never been lost in thoughts ever. so hard to accept..infact it is not accepted.

The mind can't accept it because it is contrary to how thoughts work.
Does awareness have a beginning or an end? Can you find either?

fundamentally there are two opposites in experience. when attention is free and when attention is not free ( in thoughts, arguments etc)..........my understanding is that free attention is the experience of THIS......but there are moments (not verifiable)(but firmly believed) when attention is not free.....two state of attention (free and locked) is true??

experience of casual thoughts, experience of opinion based thought and experience of no thought.....

Both states are still experience
That awareness is free to be aware of.
The appearance of getting lost in thoughts, is an appearance, that you are aware of, now.

experience of opinion based thoughts (story) is where attention is lost (not verifiable)...but when suddenly it is realized oh i was lost in thinking. this realization is not simply a thought occuring..........but the expansion or brightness or freedom of attention is experienced...then thoughts says it is unquestionably true that there was unawareness moments ago and now there is awareness...attention was lost in thought.

Again thought is creating a past that didn't happen. It labels certain sensations as expansion and brightness, and concludes that attention must have been lost 'a few moments ago'.
What is 'a few moments ago' in DE?
An idea showing up now?

No...past is nothing more than an idea/image appearing now without an opposition to it...when i answer this question...resistance comes-up with a fogginess of seeing.....its like intellect does not want to see, accept and conclude this for once and for all.

Good, then it is seen.
Don't worry about what thoughts say. What does it matter? It is still just appearance, that you are aware of, NOW.

Tao

[Jiten76]

Hi tao,

i got busy today. will reply tomorrow.

thanks
jiten

[Tao]

Hi jiten, following on:

thought see things....this is interesting...I will try to observe.

Excuse my use of language here,
Thoughts don't see things, but they present an appearance

what is the relation of true and false with POV of a timeline??.......is it that nothing is true because everything is appearance? appearance is not true. only what is, is true?

Yes.
What is, is true.
THIS, IS.
The content of thought (the appearance) is not true, it is a mirage.
The appearance shows up, undeniably so, as THIS.
But what it seems to suggest is nonsensical, meaningless data.
This becomes apparent in DE.

]"appearance" and "is ness" are separate?........what appears and disappears is not one with what is. it is not separate also with what is? only what is is. that's why appearance is called dream?

Appearance is just what is. Appearance is not separate from isness.
But what it seems to suggest is just a dream.
What appears and dissapears doesn't ever exist
Only what is, is.

This is clear...there is no past. only thought appears now.

Great. Allow this seeing to continue.

I was watching a lady walking...all the while watching, there is no experience of past even when being aware...but the moment I looked somewhere else thought appears and say I was watching the lady before..

Yes, was there ever a lady there in the first place?
Or is that just an interpretation of what is?

but what is the implication????? thought says I did watch the lady along with images (so called recalled past). though there is no past now....did it happen?

What does the word 'happen' suggest?
It suggests there are things (events), that can take place in time.
Isn't 'event' just part of the mirage?
Is there anything other than what is, here and now?

I think thoughts about past are believed in because of causal/consequences....if the appearances do not have any causal connection, mind would be willing to see thought about past as thought appearing now instead of believing it.

Causal/consequences is still just assumption of thought.
Superstition.
Superstition is about assuming patterns that are not really there.

Is there any cause of THIS?
Is cause or effect anything more than an idea/assumption?
A dream of 'time'?

So Woodstock event and thought about event are both appearance. because both are appearance they are same??

'Woodstock' is a thought appearance.
A dream.

does the question imply "happening" is same as appearance? so
1) everything that I believed to be 'is there', is appearance only?

2) whatever is not happening (or appearing) is not there???????????

Nothing is 'there'
Because there is only 'here'

So anything that appears to be 'there',
Is only an appearance 'here', 'now'.

Tao

[Jiten76]

Hi Tao,

yesterday and today i was obsessed with "is there anything that is not appearing now". i was kind of repeating it like a mantra. not by effort but more for some kind of attraction to it. Somehow it seems to be the key to stop day dreaming which goes on...but nothing clicked yet...

Seeing only light and color in D.E has become like a impossible, challenging, sure to fail kind of exercise, in "mind" .. i could not proceed more today. i will work on this and other exercise tomorrow.

I have a question..

Nothing is 'there'
Because there is only 'here'

So anything that appears to be 'there',
Is only an appearance 'here', 'now'.

while walking if i see a gate at 300 m down the road.....the gate is out 'there' 300 m down the road.....this is the traditional understanding/description...

when you say "anything that appears to be there, is only an appearance 'here', 'now'.......what you mean by 'here' in this example?...'now' is not that ambiguous...but 'here' needs a reference to body??


Thanks
Jitendra

[Jiten76]

Hi Tao,

I am also hung-up on trying to see a thought as it appears and experienced.......a thought is never experienced as it comes...it always seems to be experienced afterward....and feels like i missed it again...also one or two times it felt like meaning is undertood first and then thought appear for it (not very sure)....very difficult to see this.

thanks
Jiten

[Jiten76]

Hi Tao,

What is the difference, in DE, between the object and the space around the object?

space is transparent and object blocks the view of the wall...but I guess this is not D.E. mind has answered it...not able to avoid continuous interpretation while doing this exercise..

In fact, what is 'space' in DE? Is there such a thing?

it kind of restrains the mind :-(...not able to answer or conclude..

When you look at the room in front of you, isn't it all just one seamless experience of light/colour?

and shape too?? or even shape is projection of thought/mind?.........could not successfully do this..

Can you find an experience where awareness is not there?

No. logically itself it is not possible.

No I cant find experience of sleep. I find thought about sleep and other very persistent thoughts that yes I slept, I cant ignore, its so obviously true...stop fooling yourself...and a thought yes I believe it....I don't want to believe that I did not sleep...I will not believe it...I slept for sure...and this is my final position on this...

So thought is trying to hold onto the 'I' that sleeps. Can thought conclusions or sensations sleep, or do they just come and go?

thought is trying to hold on to "I"......by insisting on sleep experience???? so indirect hidden motive of this resistance is to hold on to "I"...rather than sleep was true or not...

No..thought conclusions or sensations do not sleep...they come and go.

It doesn't matter what THIS shows up as, you are always aware of this.
Even if this shows up as a bunch of conclusions and assumptions about a 'me', that come and go
THIS still is, and you are aware of it,

you are always aware of it??........even when focus or attention is on the experience or object or thought etc? is there a difference in awareness of THIS when attention is focused on specifics or unfocused??

Is there anything you don't experience?

for example thought says I am not experiencing the flying of a bird now. or I am not experiencing looking Egyptian pyramids currently...which is true at thought/logic level only if I believe content of thought to be true...in truth only this thought is present in this moment and I am experiencing it..

I think question is meant to clearly see thought as thought and not believe the content or what the thought is saying....

Does awareness have a beginning or an end? Can you find either?

cant find....infact finding, searching and looking for beginning and end needs awareness...but thought says you can look only in this moment..your whole past and future life you may have many moments of unawareness...

so the truth is only one eternal now moment where different appearance come and go.....there is no lapse in continuity of awareness so there is no cut-out past which happened??

Both states (free attention and lost in thought) are still experience
That awareness is free to be aware of.
The appearance of getting lost in thoughts, is an appearance, that you are aware of, now.

but you said appearance of getting lost in thought is not true..it is always experienced as happened in immediate past and there is no past..

I think the real contention boils down to the firm belief that there are states (of lost attention) which I was not aware of, in the now moment of 'past' and remember about it in current 'now' and know for sure that it was true...and no matter what logic and D.E show, I am not going to believe it otherwise. there is some unwillingness/blindness to see this clearly.

Don't worry about what thoughts say. What does it matter? It is still just appearance, that you are aware of, NOW.

does it mean that all thoughts no matter what the content of the thought is.....all thoughts are same because they are just an appearance???

The content of thought (the appearance) is not true, it is a mirage.

and this is true for all thoughts? each of trillions of thought?

The appearance shows up, undeniably so, as THIS.

could not get this clearly? appearance shows up as THIS?

What does the word 'happen' suggest?
It suggests there are things (events), that can take place in time.
Isn't 'event' just part of the mirage?
Is there anything other than what is, here and now?

ok.. so called event is part of the mirage (agreed).....even if nothing actually happened because every image and event is a projection/dream/mirage.......

I think what mind does not want to see that the thought "a few moments ago" is just an appearance now and does not point to something true...

thanks
Jiten

[Tao]

Hi Jiten,

Here is an article on DE that is worth reading if you have not already:

http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/

Let's focus on the basics before returning to the sticking points /difficulties

Does this make sense? Any questions regarding DE?

Tao

[Jiten76]

Hi Tao,

sure. I had read it earlier and read once again now. But I want to read it 5-6 times more thoroughly before I ask questions on D.E.

One sense I am getting is that 'looking' is the tool, not 'questioning and understanding the answer'.

I always had this fear that I am not sincere or honest in going to D.E.....wanted to come-out as quickly as possible by performing the basic minimum practice.....I hope re-reading this article will bring more willingness to rely on D.E

will get back in a day or two.

Thanks
Jiten

[Tao]

One sense I am getting is that 'looking' is the tool, not 'questioning and understanding the answer'.

Yes exactly

I always had this fear that I am not sincere or honest in going to D.E.....wanted to come-out as quickly as possible by performing the basic minimum practice.....I hope re-reading this article will bring more willingness to rely on D.E

Thoughts fly up and its too easy to turn to them for an answer. Sit with experience exactly as you find it to be

This may prove useful too:

http://liberationunleashed.com/nothing-hidden/

Tao

[Jiten76]

Hi Tao,

Apologies for the delay. few issues had come-up.

I read the direct experience article. 3-4 times. it helps reading multiple times.

I liked the definition of D.E.

D.E is what is noticed here and now

there are few questions.

1) its easy to notice thought and also easy to notice sensations related to touch and taste. But the article categorizes seeing, hearing and smelling also as sensations. Not sure why these 3 too have been called as sensations. experiencing seeing as sensations has not happened so far. smell sometime through sensations in nostrils is fine. but hearing and seeing to be experienced as sensation is challenging. any advise on this? is there a specific purpose in calling all of them as sensation?

2) I had two three issues popped up and they brought some fear and resistance that i don't want these issues..they should go away or resolution should happen instantly now. there was a compulsive urge to keep trying until they get solve. I could not practice awareness or D.E then.
simply put...these issues became more important to act upon instead of noticing D.E.

Should I NOT try to practice D.E during such time or they are actually most potent situations to try for D.E?

3) what I understood is, that while practicing D.E, focus of investigation is to look for "I" which thoughts are referring or concluding.. this is relatively easy..

but another focus sometime is to see that there is no separate object. there is no real separation of object with surroundings....this has been difficult in practice.

today I could sit for relatively longer time seeing an object. thoughts were also very few. but finally I had to put the question what is the difference between thought and space surrounding it.....and what is the experience of space in D.E...but only thought replied that there is not much difference..there was no clear seeing or clicking that they are same.


Thanks
Jitendra

[Tao]

Hi jiten sorry for late reply

1) its easy to notice thought and also easy to notice sensations related to touch and taste. But the article categorizes seeing, hearing and smelling also as sensations. Not sure why these 3 too have been called as sensations. experiencing seeing as sensations has not happened so far. smell sometime through sensations in nostrils is fine. but hearing and seeing to be experienced as sensation is challenging. any advise on this? is there a specific purpose in calling all of them as sensation?

I wouldn't worry about this, hearing and seeing are sense perceptions, distinguishable from kinasthesia, feelings, sensations. It's a choice of words, not important for 'looking'

,2) I had two three issues popped up and they brought some fear and resistance that i don't want these issues..they should go away or resolution should happen instantly now. there was a compulsive urge to keep trying until they get solve. I could not practice awareness or D.E then. simply put...these issues became more important to act upon instead of noticing D.E. Should I NOT try to practice D.E during such time or they are actually most potent situations to try for D.E?

They are potentially the best situation for seeing through the self charade, potent situations indeed. Keep looking during these times.

Are the issues ACTUALLY important in the light of DE?
What is it that NEEDS the issues gone/resolved?

What would a resolution entail?

3) what I understood is, that while practicing D.E, focus of investigation is to look for "I" which thoughts are referring or concluding.. this is relatively easy..but another focus sometime is to see that there is no separate object. there is no real separation of object with surroundings....this has been difficult in practice. today I could sit for relatively longer time seeing an object. thoughts were also very few. but finally I had to put the question what is the difference between thought and space surrounding it.....and what is the experience of space in D.E...but only thought replied that there is not much difference..there was no clear seeing or clicking that they are same.ThanksJitendra

So have you found the 'I' that thoughts are concluding?
Is it simple to see that 'I' is only ever thought conclusion?

Let's try and experiment with sound.
Close your eyes and listen,
It doesn't matter what you can hear,

Is there any distance between you and the sound?

Is there any distance between you and ANY sound?

Does awareness have to go anywhere, in order to hear sound?

Tao

[Jiten76]

Hi Tao,

So have you found the 'I' that thoughts are concluding?
Is it simple to see that 'I' is only ever thought conclusion?

Actually I have not found the 'I' that thoughts are referring too. It is simple in the context of seeing sometimes that oh its just a thought..but a sense of 'I' has been there.

for example when you ask for trying something...I can sincerely try and see its just thought but the whole exercise has a sense of doing...

sometime I feel like I should try to be alert and capture the first impulse of engaging with thought......but this intention itself is a thought is forgotten.......

Let's try and experiment with sound.
Close your eyes and listen,
It doesn't matter what you can hear,

Is there any distance between you and the sound?

Is there any distance between you and ANY sound?

Does awareness have to go anywhere, in order to hear sound?

I tried this today.

It was clear that hearing/listening is happening effortlessly. Awareness did not have to go anywhere. and it seems to be located not in ears but different place where the sound is happening.

but there was this sense of direction as to from where the sound is coming. variation in intensity and sense of different location of origination was there.

with reference to body sense there was distance but with reference to awareness there was no distance.

I will also work with other pointers and get back. issue is still there.

Are the issues ACTUALLY important in the light of DE?
What is it that NEEDS the issues gone/resolved?

What would a resolution entail?

Thanks
Jiten

[Jiten76]

Hi Tao,

apologies for late reply. I got busy in work.

My compulsive response for issues to be immediately solved along with fear did not occur in its intensity afterwards. I will do below exercise when I have that response again.

Are the issues ACTUALLY important in the light of DE?
What is it that NEEDS the issues gone/resolved?

What would a resolution entail?

thanks
jiten