At the front door, waiting for you

[1llusion]

Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

No.

Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

No.

Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction ... etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

No.

Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attiitude.., that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion, that appeared in response to a stimulus?

No.

Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

No.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes. Watch what focus does, focus on focussing, attention itself. Do you move it? Or it moves by itself? Hold focus on breath, see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?

No.

What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention?

Most of the time, sensations or thoughts trigger the shifting of attention. In fact, I would say attention and sensation are one; without attention to something, it cannot be perceived.

No, thinking is not in control; sometimes thoughts come prior to a shift of attention ("I will focus on X now") or after the shift happened ("I changed focus to Y"), thereby claiming to be the cause, while the only thing that can be said with certainty is temporal correlation.

[kenbok]

Most of the time, sensations or thoughts trigger the shifting of attention. In fact, I would say attention and sensation are one; without attention to something, it cannot be perceived.

Yes. Nice.

the only thing that can be said with certainty is temporal correlation.

When you think about your past - do you see an "I"?

[kenbok]

Think about your childhood experiences, adolescence, adulthood, all the different threads of the story, places, feelings that come to you. Through all of that material, was there a self there? In interactions with your parents, siblings, friends, lovers, etc, who was the one interacting, speaking, talking, playing? Was there a self making decisions, having feelings, having thoughts?

[1llusion]

Still there, will answer later. Sorry.

[1llusion]

When you think about your past - do you see an "I"?

There are thoughts in the form of images or descriptions accompanied by thoughts saying "I did X"; but that is the only place where the "I" is found.

Was there a self making decisions, having feelings, having thoughts?

The things that come to mind are the more dramatic acts (breakups, etc.), of which I always felt that "I had no choice but doing it like that". So in that sense, there were no decisions. With more mundane matters, I can accept the idea of having decided something; but then again, that is just a thought.

It is different with feelings: It seems reasonable to say or think "I felt X"; but then again, I cannot say what this "I" is supposed to be and it is all just thought anyways.

To sum it up: The story about my past is centered on the idea of a "me" doing and feeling, but it is just a bunch of thoughts with no inherent reality. They might point to an actual truth, but present experience tells me this is not the case.

[kenbok]

thoughts saying "I did X"; but that is the only place where the "I" is found.

What is this "I" that is found? A memory? A sense of continuity? Is it an absence or a presence?

The things that come to mind are the more dramatic acts (breakups, etc.), of which I always felt that "I had no choice but doing it like that". So in that sense, there were no decisions. With more mundane matters, I can accept the idea of having decided something; but then again, that is just a thought.

Who decides what is mundane and dramatic? Is there a decider, a judger, a weigher of importance?

It seems reasonable to say or think "I felt X"

Who is the judge of reason here?

"it is all just thought anyways."

Is an apple a thought?

The story about my past is centered on the idea of a "me" doing and feeling

Can you say a bit more about what this "me" is?

[1llusion]

What is this "I" that is found? A memory? A sense of continuity? Is it an absence or a presence?

In thought in the form of language, there is the "I" as part of the description. In "images" there is a lack of any idea of self; weirdly, in all visual memories of particular situations, I re-create the situation from a perspective outside of my body (i.e., I see myself doing X).

Who decides what is mundane and dramatic? Is there a decider, a judger, a weigher of importance?

No, it just happened.

Who is the judge of reason here?

There is none; it was just the result of the usual labeling.

Is an apple a thought?

No.

Can you say a bit more about what this "me" is?

It has no quality to it; it is just the common assumption of all the stories considered my past, i.e., that there is an "I" doing all of it.

On a side note: I believe to be stuck in thought (more so than earlier) and I seemingly try to avoid really considering the questions and tend to answer like this: Starting from the assumption that no "I" exists, I deduce what should be the answer. So in this sense, I pre-empt the realisation of "no-self" by starting from there and arguing backwards.

All the distractions I come up with (like, when you have to do something but really dont want to and then just find all the little things that "have to be done right now") finally led to thoughts like "I will not allow myself to distract myself from doing this", which is just ridiculous.

[1llusion]

Really, it's the stupidest thing: here "I" am declaring "myself" witness, prisoner and victim of "my" thinking. That just does not make any sense and this continuous recursion is really starting to annoy "me".

[kenbok]

In thought in the form of language, there is the "I" as part of the description. In "images" there is a lack of any idea of self; weirdly, in all visual memories of particular situations, I re-create the situation from a perspective outside of my body (i.e., I see myself doing X).

Where do all sense perceptions and thoughts report to?

Is an apple a thought?
No.

I put that in to say be careful of saying, 'it's all X or Y' without examination.

: I believe to be stuck in thought (more so than earlier) and I seemingly try to avoid really considering the questions and tend to answer like this: Starting from the assumption that no "I" exists, I deduce what should be the answer. So in this sense, I pre-empt the realisation of "no-self" by starting from there and arguing backwards.

All the distractions I come up with (like, when you have to do something but really dont want to and then just find all the little things that "have to be done right now") finally led to thoughts like "I will not allow myself to distract myself from doing this", which is just ridiculous

This is all thought. Don't get distracted.

Really, it's the stupidest thing: here "I" am declaring "myself" witness, prisoner and victim of "my" thinking. That just does not make any sense and this continuous recursion is really starting to annoy "me".

It's okay. Annoyance is good. I would get more annoyed to build energy around this inquiry. Go round and round until you're completely exhausted. Sometimes it happens that way. It did to me.. :)

"it does not make any sense" - but are we interested in making sense? or finding out?

[1llusion]

Where do all sense perceptions and thoughts report to?

There is a "place" where they are experienced, but I have no idea how to describe that.

I put that in to say be careful of saying, 'it's all X or Y' without examination.

Thanks, I realize I am prone to that.

"it does not make any sense" - but are we interested in making sense? or finding out?

I want both. I think I should do it in this order: finding out, making sense. However, it seems I am actually trying it the other way round. Historically speaking, making sense of things has always been something I liked to do and, maybe, was even obsessed with. It is actually a huge fragment of my so called identity for the purpose of deriving a sense of self-esteem.

[1llusion]

Oh well, and it seems I like to psychoanalyze myself. Whatever. ;)

[kenbok]

There is a "place" where they are experienced, but I have no idea how to describe that.

That is fine. Is there an "I" in this place though?

I think I should do it in this order: finding out, making sense. However, it seems I am actually trying it the other way round. Historically speaking, making sense of things has always been something I liked to do and, maybe, was even obsessed with. It is actually a huge fragment of my so called identity for the purpose of deriving a sense of self-esteem.

Yes you can do both. Just as long as the making sense does not obstruct the finding out.

[1llusion]

That is fine. Is there an "I" in this place though?

No, there is no "I".

[1llusion]

That leaves open the question, is there any more "I" in "me"? How could I tell?

[1llusion]

Still here and awaiting your orders. ;)