Looking for someone to lead me home

[Jakobo]

1) are you getting rid of a separate self, or was there never a separate self? Explain:

There never was a separate self. For as long as can be remembered there has been unquestioned thoughts about a ’me’ that has automatically been believed in. This has led to more thoughts being believed in about control, choices, responsibility etc. But thoughts don’t automatically point toward true things. They can do, but not necessarily.

[otterrivers]

Please explain from current seeing alone,
-what is the illusion of separate/individual self?
-how does it begin?
-how does it work?
-how is it maintained?

[Jakobo]

I’m sorry I didn’t write anything yesterday, got caught up in other things.

-what is the illusion of separate/individual self?

It’s basically unquestioned thoughts referring and telling stories about ‘I’, ‘me’. It’s a belief that there is someone, like an invisible entity, in this body controlling actions and experiencing life.

-how does it begin?

I can only guess here but I would say that it begins when you are a child and start learning the language. Your parents and everyone around you call you by a name. You learn the words ‘I’, ‘you’, ‘me’ and then the ball starts rolling…

-how does it work?
-how is it maintained?

Don’t really know how to answer the question ”how does it work?”. If the question is how the separate self works, the answer is it doesn’t. It’s illusory and therefore obviously doesn’t work or have any power in and of itself. But thoughts referring to this illusory self keep coming back and can be believed in. If they are, the illusory self is perpetuated and the belief in it is maintained.

Thank you as always for doing this!

[otterrivers]

When I asked how does it work, how is it maintained? I was asking about the illusion of separate self. Not an actual self. I think you answered well.

So next,
-how does it feel to see this? What is different. Now from before you saw this?
Please give an example or 2

[Jakobo]

-how does it feel to see this? What is different. Now from before you saw this?
Please give an example or 2

Well I realize that there’s no reason to compare different paths to each other. But I seem to be on a path where this realization happens slowly and steadily (sorry for the ‘me’ language =)). A lot of the time there’s really no difference. For example being at work and interacting with people in those situations I’m caught up in the same old ‘me’ story most of the time. But then there are times when there is more of a feeling-realization of there not being any ‘me’ in there in the body, instead of only realizing this intellectually. At those times I feel more relaxed and things happen more effortlessly. If things just happen and there’s no ‘me’ controlling it –aah what a relief, the strain kind of goes away.

-what is the illusion of separate/individual self?
-how does it begin?
-how does it work?
-how is it maintained?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-3e0EkvIEM
Felt like answering those again =)

[otterrivers]

Ha ha! :).

So I take it you have seen clearly there really is no separate self in experience.

What was it that finally got you to see this for yourself beyond a concept? For example, if it happened during your talk with Xian, what was it that was said that finally got you to see?

[Jakobo]

So I take it you have seen clearly there really is no separate self in experience.

What was it that finally got you to see this for yourself beyond a concept? For example, if it happened during your talk with Xian, what was it that was said that finally got you to see?

Reading this there are thoughts wanting to complain. Thoughts saying that I haven’t seen through the illusion of a separate self clearly enough. But it’s slowly getting easier to see these thoughts for what they are – just thoughts, nothing more.

What has been really helpful here is that both you and Xain relentlessly kept telling me to look for a separate self and making me realize that I’m not looking for a state or experiences where I feel good, relaxed or like a blissful Buddha. That I am just looking for what’s true in the moment and nothing else.

But I can’t say that I am still comfortable with all this. The last couple of days it has slowly been getting easier to simply stop in the moment and look at what’s true. To turn my attention toward the senses and what is experienced directly. Before (and now as well, although less) the mind had such a pulling power, making me avoid turning toward the senses and start analyzing thing instead. Yep, just thoughts!
But all of this feels fragile. Like if I stop writing daily here I won’t have anyone telling me to keep turning my attention towards what is really happening and what’s true in the moment. And that the mind might then very slowly and sneakily come back in, grab my attention, and making me avoid the direct looking.
The mind, the mind, the mind… All of it is just thoughts! I just want to know I (hmmmm) stand steadily enough with this knowing so that when I stop writing here the stream of thoughts passing through won’t sweep me away for the next twenty years to come… :-)

[Jakobo]

Hi!

Just writing to check in. The next couple of days I will have an old friend staying at my place. I’ll try to write daily but if I miss a day or two this is the reason.

As I wrote in my last post everything feels fragile. There are moments when it’s easier for me to just stay present to what is really happening and then moment when I’m absorbed in thought stories. To the question if the illusion of the separate self has been seen through clearly enough as to there being a steady, continuous deepening into this seeing – I simply do not know.

Today I feel very emotional and there’s sadness for no apparent reason. I try not to get lost in stories about the feelings but simply just feel them and this helps. It even feels good to let these feeling be expressed - although the timing is not the best as I'm at work ;-)

Have a nice weekend!

[otterrivers]

What has been really helpful here is that both you and Xain relentlessly kept telling me to look for a separate self and making me realize that I’m not looking for a state or experiences where I feel good, relaxed or like a blissful Buddha. That I am just looking for what’s true in the moment and nothing else.

Yes! Perfect!

[otterrivers]

There is no seeing a lack of separation more or less clearly. You see it or you don't. You are right though, when not being reminded, habit takes over. Familiar patterns return. But this does not mean you haven't seen clearly. Just checking now, do you find there is an actual separation? Is there a looker seeing the seen? Or just the experience?

The gate, as we call it, is the simple seeing beyond any doubt (because it is not based on logic, it is SEEN) that there never was a you as distinct from life. Holding on to this seeing and wanting to be able to duplicate it at will is counter productive. It just reinforces the idea that there is a "me" that could get "it". There is no you to get anything.

You say it's fragile, and that makes sense. It IS fragile right? Like an alcoholic's new found sobriety. And even worse the alcoholic may be sober but still living in the bar with drinks available. And surrounded by drunks. But you can only forget and drink yourself stupid (by acting and planning on behalf of a separate self) before great suffering occurs yet again. And again. Inevitably. Every time. And this suffering is a great reminder. It's letting you know to reevaluate. So you look again and see that "oh shit! That's right. I forgot!" So don't worry. You can't forget for long. Life comes with a fool-proof reminder system called "suffering" :)

Don't despair or believe thoughts that say "I must not have really seen it right because..."
Forgetting happens. Remembering to look again happens. There's no being there that can get a grip on it. In fact, that wanting to get a grip, wanting to control the steering wheel, is what you are seeking liberation from in the first place. It's the cause of the problem. But now just refined into a more spiritual sounding logic.

[otterrivers]

But also, your point is well taken. And it has been accounted for. We have groups for "after care" to help with his exact issue. Tons of other newly "gated" and others who have been liberated much longer. Lots of opportunities to share whatever comes up and just have that community of support :)

But only after we are finished here. Again "THE GATE" is just the seeing that there was never a you outside of imagination. Tell me, has this happened or not? :). Don't look for results, just yes or no?

(Hey take your time. Enjoy visiting with your friend!! Sorry if I sound strict or something. I'm just being intentionally direct to cut right to the point. Not trying to scold you. ;) Talk to ya later!)

[Jakobo]

I haven’t had much time to sit with your last posts but feel I want to give some kind of reply now before going to sleep.

There is no seeing a lack of separation more or less clearly. You see it or you don't. You are right though, when not being reminded, habit takes over. Familiar patterns return. But this does not mean you haven't seen clearly. Just checking now, do you find there is an actual separation? Is there a looker seeing the seen? Or just the experience?

To tell the truth it doesn’t feel as easy as either seeing it or not. It’s feels like having a foggy vision and by focusing hard enough slowly the vision becomes clearer. So to answer your questions the answer doesn’t come immediately but I have to sit with them for some time before being able to confidently say – no, there’s no looker, looking is happening. It’s just the experience.

The gate, as we call it, is the simple seeing beyond any doubt (because it is not based on logic, it is SEEN) that there never was a you as distinct from life. Holding on to this seeing and wanting to be able to duplicate it at will is counter productive. It just reinforces the idea that there is a "me" that could get "it". There is no you to get anything.

Could you please expand on what you mean when saying that wanting to hold on and be able to duplicate the seeing is counterproductive. My take on what you wrote in the first section is that of course forgetting happens, but when actually looking it should be clear that there’s no self. Or is that not always the case when turning the attention to direct experience? Is it just more of the illusory ‘me’ wanting to exert control being able to always see ‘no-self’ (not seeing itself… that’s stupid… :)) when looking? Writing this it sounds like it… Geeeh, getting a bit tired.

You say it's fragile, and that makes sense. It IS fragile right? Like an alcoholic's new found sobriety. And even worse the alcoholic may be sober but still living in the bar with drinks available. And surrounded by drunks. But you can only forget and drink yourself stupid (by acting and planning on behalf of a separate self) before great suffering occurs yet again. And again. Inevitably. Every time. And this suffering is a great reminder. It's letting you know to reevaluate. So you look again and see that "oh shit! That's right. I forgot!" So don't worry. You can't forget for long. Life comes with a fool-proof reminder system called "suffering" :)

That’s so very, very true. No need to worry ;)

But also, your point is well taken. And it has been accounted for. We have groups for "after care" to help with his exact issue. Tons of other newly "gated" and others who have been liberated much longer. Lots of opportunities to share whatever comes up and just have that community of support :)

And for that I’m grateful! I stopped using facebook a while back as I got tired of all the stupidity it brings with it. But now, now I think I’ll have to open up a new account :)

But only after we are finished here. Again "THE GATE" is just the seeing that there was never a you outside of imagination. Tell me, has this happened or not? :). Don't look for results, just yes or no?

As I wrote earlier - when looking it’s like the vision starts out blurry but when focusing it gradually becomes clearer that there’s just experience. The slooow dawning of -why look! There’s nothing to look for.

(Hey take your time. Enjoy visiting with your friend!! Sorry if I sound strict or something. I'm just being intentionally direct to cut right to the point. Not trying to scold you. ;) Talk to ya later!)

Haha you’re not sounding strict and for being direct that’s really needed so I don’t keep running in circles. A slap with the zen-stick every once in a while is very much needed :)

[otterrivers]

Sorry I haven't been able to respond yet. I will do so when I can get more time. Thanks for being patient! :)

[otterrivers]

Ok. It's not important that I clarify anything I've already said. It is much more useful for me to just continue pointing to the gate from here. But I'll make a cursory effort at satisfying your curiosity a bit. :)

You say that for you, it takes some time for the seeing to become clear. As if there is a fog that must clear first. Sure this is fine. All that is important is whether you have in fact seen clearly that there is no self distinct from life, but just life as one singular movement. Have you seen this or not?

And when I say it is counter productive to

[otterrivers]

(Sorry premature "submit" there. My thumbs are too clumsy for this smart phone haha)

But when I say it is counter productive to try to hold on to be seeing and replicate it, I mean why are you doing this? Isn't is acting on behalf of a separate 'me' that could gain or benefit from some 'spiritual knowledge'? It is again like the analogy of wanting the candy or attention or any other greed. Just now with a loving peaceful spiritual face put on it. When it is seen, it is seen. With no you to take control and direct experience to where you want it (no wanted, no director, nothing that could be directed!!) how is this anything other than counterproductive?
Instead, just look. You will see what you see. Then forget. Don't resist it! There is only thinking that says it could be resisted (and that there is something which could resist something else) anyway.

So rather than delve deeper into a kindly debate I will just ask plainly: have you seen beyond a doubt that there never was an "I" vs "outside circumstances"? If you have, you already know this. All unfulfilled expectations and remaining conditioning can be worked on after the gate. These unmet expectations are a sign that you haven't passed the gate of true seeing, but only in imagination!!!!