Help needed

[annarodriguez]

Read it, understand what you are saying.
Don't know what to reply.

Maybe tomorrow.

[annarodriguez]

I guess here comes a story again Nick, sorry.
Went out into nature today, forest, lake. Sat by the lake for a while.
Looking around, no particular thought on my mind. Feeling the breeze.
Walking back home, asking if I excist, straight away looking.
At one point, there was just walking, seeing, hearing, with no referencepoint.
Ahh, I then thought, this is what Nick's talking about. Just no reference, everything is the same, but no center.
Nothing that can be claimed. The senses seemed sharper, not blocked by 'clouds of thought.'
Very soon after that thought came back in, screaming for attention. They always scream the same things:
"You got it, you got it. You're done! 'You have arrived! Oh if only you can hang on to this, what if the feeling changes."

States or experiences happen for no-one.

At this point a lot of thought again, feeling the same. But I can say that it is clear that cluttered thought and feelings give the thought and feeling that there is a seperate self. Through years of conditioning and linguistic confirmation, a belief has settled in. THought and feeling become habitual and so do our reactions to an 'outside world.'

Gateless gate?
Don't feel like it right now. THought is running according to habitual programming and feeling follows.
Is belief in seperate self just a thought? Yes.

[Nick]

Perfect, Anna.

Sometimes the thought "you got it. You got it. You're done!" happens, and then other times the thought "I'm a separate self" happens.

Both of these thoughts are very convincing; they feel so REAL. But just consider, can they both be true? Is it possible for there to be a real self that comes and goes? Of course you know the answer, you know that the belief is just a thought.

So theres an issue with the "convincing" nature of the thoughts and feelings. Getting all caught up in whatever's happening and holding onto it so tightly.

These thoughts are supposed to be convincing. Of course they feel REAL. after all, what else is there? All there is is the thoughts and feelings and perceptions happening now, experience. Can you let go of the belief that feeling real EQUALS that it is permanent truth? can you stop believing that it is happening TO you instead of just "happening"?

[annarodriguez]

Just a quick reply, will get back to you later.
I just wanted to say, whenever thoughts are screaming you got it, you got it, it is noticed that they're just thoughts, it is noticed that it is apparently habitual. Whenever there is a different experience than usual, thoughts start screaming those kind of sentences. At other times, like right now, thoughts are running through other habitual patterns.
So whatever the situation, thought 'replies' according to conditioning. Every situation has it's own set of thoughts, haha.
I have a set for work, I have a set for relating to partner or children, I have a set for other familymembers or friends. And there is no I of course, thoughts arise in those situations.
And the you got it you got it thoughts are even less convincing then you don't have it thoughts. The thoughts almost feel teasing, they create instant doubtful feelings.

[annarodriguez]

But you are right, right on.
There is an issue with the convincing nature of thought and feeling.

Can you give advise on how to look into the if it's happening TO somebody or just happening?
I've tried, but am stuck. There's even a habitual pattern around Investigating or just LOOKing now, going in circles with that too, obviously.
Don't know where to go.

[Nick]

it's simple - "do you exist?"

[annarodriguez]

There is nobody that can say that I do or don't exist.
Thought says that.
There is nobody that can say I am enlightened/awakened or I'm not. Again thought.
There has never been a person, there is only what arises now and that is either thought, feeling or sensing.
And it cannot be other than that has always been that way. Where is the always anyway now? It was always now.
I get the joke. It was always just experiencing, experiencing itself. No matter in what way or form. Whether thinking: I'm very unhappy and feelings to match that or thinking: I love the world with matching senses and feelings.
And there is no way to know anything, who is there to know?
I don't know you, you don't know me.
There is only reading what you wrote on the screen, you write for example: I'm happy you're seeing this, which means there is a thought that 'says' I'm happy you're seeing this and feelings of happyness 'there'.
But it's not known to be true, there's reading and thoughts arise connecting to that comment and giving whatever experience it's giving. So I don't know Nick. I only 'know' myself. Or experience myself. Myself is a word, a thought.
That is that which can't be named. So I love or hate only myself. Wich means hating happens, loving happens.
I understand why some people say it's better to keep the mouth shut. No matter what is said is just a thought and not true. But it's also true that: better keep the mouth shut is also a thought. No right or wrong :) just experiencing.

And last night was wondering why I would say or think (and there is only thinking, nobody does it) I get it or understand it as upposed to I don't get it or understand it. What's different? It's thought and feeling/sensing that match at that point.
For example, when you tell a two year old 5 + 5 = 10. The child hears the words, but that sentence is meaningless. It's maybe capable of repeating the words but it has not seen it to be true. It does not understand why it is so. The thought does not match any feeling.
Until it's a bit older and the teacher takes 5 peaces of candy, makes the kid count, adds another 5 pieces, makes the kid count again. It sees that the words 5 + 5 = 10 matches what it has seen. At first the kid has to count a few times again, cause it's not sure that it is still so. But when the thought matches the sense or feeling everytime, that thought from no on goes along with a feeling of knowing that thought to be true and with a sense of trust in that. Still all thought and feeling.

I wonder if this is in the least bit coherent, slept for two hours last night and feel tired.

Which means there is a tension around the eyes and a dull feeling in the head and a thought that goes along with that saying I'm very tired.

The I-thought and sense stems from being repeatedly told as a young child that I'm a seperate object.
It first learns words for objects like ball and daddy. And b4 that it learns that it's name is Anna. Because mommy is repeatingly pointing to herself saying Mommy, then pointing to the child saying Anna.
Mommy sees Anna rubbing her eyes and yawning then asking: "Is Anna tired?" Anna want's to go to sleep?
Anna learns that whenever those prickly eyes appear and yawning happens it means that Anna is tired. The words: Anna is tired are connected to those feelings. And they intertwine.
The words and sentences get more and more complicated and are meany times repeated so a more and more complex seperate thought/feeling happens.
One could develope a thought pattern like: I'm very stupid and not very intelligent and feel feelings that confirm those thoughts.

[annarodriguez]

I just confirmed that message, cause it has happened before that I wrote something and it's lost.
I've tried to store the message, but then could not find it.

Anyway, long story short.

Everything's beautiful impersonal.

[Nick]

Cool... So cool anna! Time for some final checking questions i think. You already gave a nice long passage above, discussed the origin of the self-belief in childhood, etc. lets keep this momentum going, keep writing as much as you can.

Was there ever a self?

Can you write some more about the "beautifully impersonal"... How does it feel? What are the emotions associated with seeing this?

How would you explain this 'no-self' thingee to a friend who never heard of this stuff before?

What was the final thing that pushed you, that 'turned on the light'?

:) Nick

[annarodriguez]

Was there ever a self?

There is never a seperate self which kind of equals there was never a self.
There has only been experiencing now. There are thoughts about a past and a future, which gives a sense of time. But the future and past are never here. So all the me was was a bundle of thoughts and feelings, with a lot of past/future reference which gives a sense of doership in, or ownership of a story or a me.
But when watched closely every moment, it is noticed that it is not known what is going to be thought or done. It's doing itself. We don't even need thought most of the time, it has it's function, but most of the time it's just narrating in circles, whatever way it was conditioned. And feeling and senses which are connected to that narration appear accordingly. When that story is given a lot of attention, but is never investigated, it's very convincing. And is thought/felt to be true.

Can you write some more about the "beautifully impersonal"... How does it feel? What are the emotions associated with seeing this?

It feels light, the burdain of feeling seperate and so having a lot of problems is lifted. No story to carry around.
Just what appears now and now and now. It's alive and every experience experienced was not BECAUSE I'M ANNA, but just experienced and this is so for everyone.
There is nothing to own. Nobody owns anything, that makes life light, easier. I don't own money, succes. They appear and disappear in experience and not even they, thoughts and feeling about them appear and dissapear.
I don't have children or a partner. I am not a mummy. They appear and that is wonderful. My role as a mummy is played as best as it can be at every moment and they play the part of children.
And it's free-er this way, thoughts about the way I should be AS THEIR MOM or they should be AS MY CHILD can be investigated and maybe let go. We don't have to follow the same conditioning over and over. Certain standards or moral can also be investigated as being my own thoughts.
There is never anybody to blame. My parents did what they did with as much insight they had at every moment, whatever way they were conditioned, experiencing life with whatever thought that would appear.
Who is here to judge? Although judging thoughts still happen a lot.
And so are we all just experiencing whatever experience, we can build stories around anything and believe them and experience a harder or lighter life, but there is nobody in control. There is nobody deciding to become a seeker or a murderer, and not one of those is 'better.' One maybe has more 'painful' experiences, but it's no telling which one :). It's just life living itself.
But there's not a constant light feeling or anything, just went out for shopping, feel sick actually, thought and feeling as usual, not much has changed. Although that seeking urge fell away. I can finally go out for shopping and enjoy that every moment, when before there was a need to get home as quickly as possible to sit behind the computer and listen to Rupert Spira or read whatever Nick wrote :).
And it's fun to 'catch' a thought or feeling and realise it's just another thought or feeling.
This is endless, I'm at the beginning, there is a lot to just let be :)

How would you explain this 'no-self' thingee to a friend who never heard of this stuff before?

I'm not sure that I would.
And then there is a thing about explaining things, (although that is a conditioned thought, because I have noticed that whenever I'm relaxed, words just flow without effort) but I'm usually better at asking questions.
And I would ask questions about whatever one was interested in, because I could start rambling about there being no self, but if there's no interest the other person would think I am a lunatic.
Some people have very strong opinions about people with a certain religion for example.
I'll ask her if she chose where she was born. She would have to say no if she was honest.
Did she choose her family? No.
Could it be, that if she was born in a muslimfamily in Afghanistan, raised by the people in that family, that she would have the same perspective on life as the people that are actually raised there? Could she be sure that she would find it as stupid as she does now? So finding things stupid is the way you are conditioned. Opinions are based on what was taught, what was experienced, through parents, society, whatever.
So, what makes you what you are today, is it not conditioning? Some people are conditioned this way, others another. So do you have control over the way you are conditioned? Did your parents have control over the way they were conditioned, did they ever choose the circumstance they grew up in?
Are you then a product of conditioning? Let's look at conditioning, what is conditioning?
Let's take the thought: muslim people are backwards, we just saw that that thought appears because of ones conditioning. It's not ultimately true, because the opposite thought is felt to be true by someone who lives in Afghanistan.
If that thought is not ultimately true, then could you find a thought that is?
She might say: I am dutch or a christian.
I would ask, if nobody ever told you as a child that you were dutch, would you then now know that you were dutch? Would there be any way of knowing that you are dutch or a christian? So that is just another thought that might appear, cause you have been told (in one way or another) so many times that you are that and now believe it.
Certain feelings can go along with that thought, pride, feeling unworthy, whatever way one was conditioned to feel.
So what are you? Your name, your gender, your age? How would you know if nobody ever told you? What's left now?
If she was still interested at this point and of course I would adapt the story to her interest, we could talk further about what she thinks she is. And if that thought is correct.
She might say I was a Jew before but I decided to be a christian. Let's look at when you decided to be a christian.
We would go back to the point where she decided that she was that, look at it real close, find out that it was just another label that she had put on herself, just another thought believed to be true, because she had a boyfriend at that time who believed he was a christian because who was raised that way
So if she did not make that decision willingly, but thoughts were changed due to circumstance,
was there ever a decision that she did make willingly.
Maybe she would begin to be interested. Maybe she would want to find out for herself which thoughts are actually true. She would have to go deeper and deeper to finaly find out that is just all thought!
Is there a you thinking, show me the you.
Do you know me? How do you know me, are you sure it's actually me you know or do you just know your thoughts and feelings about me? Is there a YOU that knows these thoughts and feelings about me? Show me that you.
You can't find it? Really? Wait, let me call the other guides and see if we can call you a blue or a red one, hahaha.

Let me first confirm this message and then later I will answer the last question because, i've been sitting here for a long time and already had to rewrite a big peace of it, because I had to log in again.

[annarodriguez]

What was the final thing that pushed you, that 'turned on the light'?

Can't pinpoint a thing, it's kind of blurry now. But I was laying in bed, worrying about something that happened at work and could not stop the thinking, noticing again that there was not a me in control of thought. My body was very tensed. I could feel the tight muscles in my legs.
I was noticing the tension, it felt ridiculous. Why was this tension here, could thought really make me all cramped up? Thinking about a situation that is not actualy appearing now?
It was already seen that thoughts are not true, so I told myself to relax. To sink into whatever was thought or felt, knowing they are just thought or feeling, nothing to be scared of. Let's think and feel whatever comes up to the fullest and of course relaxation came since resistance was given up.
When the thought and feeling were let go of, a stream of thought came. And in that stream I realized that what you said before was true, I was always just experiencing no matter what experience. Apparently I had a notion that feeling as if there is a seperate self is not IT. And even though what you said was heard before and maybe even thought before, it was never 'understood,' it fell into place at that moment.
In that stream a lot of things were realized that I realized before but now fully. Don't know quite how to explain, but it was just so clear that I was always experiencing and it seemed strange that it was so easily overlooked.
I could then laugh at my thoughts and see what you had been trying to point out. There was nothing that had to be done to be what I already am. When thought made me believe there were things to do, it was already it.

And of course I'm using the words I and me as I would usually use them, but knowing that me does not excist.

Experiencing concurs more and more with itself and less and less with the notion of a me, that's thought now.

[Nick]

Thanks so much, Anna.

It is truly a pleasure to have talked with you, I learned so much too!

Other guides have checked our dialog, confirmed your awesome understanding. You will be "blue" member now, hahaha.

Do you use facebook? Please friend me if you do. This forum is just the "front page" of Liberation Unleashed. We have a whole huge network on facebook for support and sharing, so many new friends, etc. I will PM you with my facebook info.

:) Nick