Jen seeking guidance

[Jenness]

So, an old story. And a loop. Very important to notice it isn’t happening now.

And realizing also off an old story where my mom is super flat and you can’t tell what she’s thinking and feeling at all (she cannot feel them physically), so I assume I’ll get no signals from others and they might really dislike me or judge me but I won’t know, but others actually generally give a lot more signals than my mom if I think about it.

This entire loop is happening off in the future, it is a watermelon. What is here in the gap between thoughts?

Just stuff happening, with a sense of beauty to it. Takes a while bit to see through each silent thought “that’s a tension and resistance” “that’s a self” “that’s fear” “that’s a problem” “let go of it so you can see what’s there without thoughts” , then a whiff. Or if i let go of tensions in my body, also a whiff. Then, thoughts about wanting to maintain that and carry that into my day to day so I’m in here more ‘cause it feels good and i want to achieve it and i think it’ll cause me to act more how I want myself to act. Feels like, the self is like a prediction or alarm model that’ll never stop running, and it doesn’t have to be a problem once I see it’s a helpful but not accurate alarm. Throw out the thoughts of how to “get there”? Or those are skillful if can also recognize that it’s all the same but just whether I’m recognizing it or not?

Yes this is exactly how selfing works. It is always just one thought tagging another, then a wave of sensation (palpitations, tension, activation) arising after or with the thoughts.

Okay cool! And seems like there’s a few main categories of thoughts: thoughts about a self, thoughts about what a thing is (emotions, thoughts), thoughts about a self owning a thought, feeling, or action/movement, thoughts with a judgment (good or bad, problem or okay), thoughts about what to do to fix problem. The ownership or an action is sneakier when it’s an “action” in my mind. And thoughts to fix the problem is sneaky for me because it feels like, I’m moving in the direction needed to see through this thing. Or it’s tricky because doing things does shift causes and conditions to make it more pleasant, so it thinks okay great that seems right so keep doing that

No controller. No one at the center.

Seeing that any sense of hope that I can be happy or make things better makes that “I’m in control” thought very sticky. Helpful to see again. Letting go of hope of being happy, feeling the sadness there. That seems very counter to what I’ve grew up being taught- okay direction or wrong direction?

When that second thought isn’t present is there suffering? When the first thought is seen through can there be anyone to suffer?

No and no. Seems so simple when go through it in this way, yet so hard..

Look for the sufferer now: Is anyone found, or just sensation + thoughts claiming ownership?

Sensations and thoughts claiming ownership! Just kind of like sensations and movements and then thoughts floating around. Sticky sneaky thoughts though

Let the sympathetic activation be as big as it wants. don’t fix, don’t fight, don’t analyze. Is there anything personal in it, or just sensations, unowned, moving through?

Unowned, with thoughts wanting them to move through by not squishing them and sort through so less come back. Which does happen.. so it’s kind of like there’s a way we can describe how this stuff works, but it’s also still just not any of those things - like that?

[graceabounds]

Letting go of the hope for happiness isn’t about giving up joy; it’s just loosening the idea that joy has to arrive as a result of managing life.

so it’s kind of like there’s a way we can describe how this stuff works, but it’s also still just not any of those things - like that?

Yes you can describe the system all day long, but every description is another appearance, not the thing itself.
The moment you see that, the description becomes transparent.
So it’s fine to let the mind make models; just keep seeing that the model is in what’s happening, never about it.

Wherever you are sitting right now, look for an object to use. Don’t pick up the object or turn it around, only look at what can be seen without touching it or turning it.

Have one? Now look at it and describe what you see. Give yourself a bit of time with it. Just look, nothing else. Done?

Now describe the back side of the object.
How is it known what the back side looks like?
What tells what it looks like?
How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?
Can this be known in direct experience?
Can an object be known at all?


So when you notice yourself explaining or describing, try to pause for a second and let the description hang in the air without following it.
Then feel what’s left: the warmth in the chest, the tiny pulse behind the eyes, the sounds in the room, breath moving.
That’s the gap. Just stuff happening, and it doesn’t need to be confirmed or denied.

Let one of those sticky thoughts arise.
Instead of answering it, find the exact place in the body that lights up with it.
Stay with that texture for a few breaths.
Ask, is there anything personal in this texture?

[Jenness]

Letting go of the hope for happiness isn’t about giving up joy; it’s just loosening the idea that joy has to arrive as a result of managing life.

That makes sense. I feel like i only feel really happy when I give up hope for happiness, but alas, because of the hump of “i dont want these sensations i still label as difficult “ that happens first, body keeps trying to take a shortcut and grab for happy.

Have one? Now look at it and describe what you see. Give yourself a bit of time with it. Just look, nothing else. Done?

I felt like I feel in love with a random object! Was happy to see what I gave my attention to without judgment became love. Would like to love “my” sensations /emotions

Now describe the back side of the object.
How is it known what the back side looks like?
What tells what it looks like?
How can it be known that there is a back at all? That the object is 3D?
Can this be known in direct experience?
Can an object be known at all?

There’s no way to know in direct experience, only an image thought of the back and thoughts about what the object is.

So when you notice yourself explaining or describing, try to pause for a second and let the description hang in the air without following it.
Then feel what’s left: the warmth in the chest, the tiny pulse behind the eyes, the sounds in the room, breath moving.
That’s the gap. Just stuff happening, and it doesn’t need to be confirmed or denied.

Really like “let the description hang in the air” It’s kinda of like labels of things on the screen when you put a cursor over it. The gap is the difference between what’s actually happening and what the thoughts say is happening, yea?

Let one of those sticky thoughts arise.
Instead of answering it, find the exact place in the body that lights up with it.
Stay with that texture for a few breaths.
Ask, is there anything personal in this texture?

No, there isn’t! This is helpful and reveals underneath is usually just the thought “but what if you’re wrong that it’s not a problem if eg., they reject you or see you as awful, and it leads to huge problems you just can’t see yet” , the “just in case, avoid all risk” thought. There’s still a need to use thoughts in daily life so it’s not like we’re saying all thoughts are wrong, but we’re saying they’re never actually reality, and even for functioning in the world and staying alive, etc., most of them are pretty wrong and you could just not listen to them, yea?

[graceabounds]

Yes you are seeing clearly Jen.

There’s still a need to use thoughts in daily life so it’s not like we’re saying all thoughts are wrong, but we’re saying they’re never actually reality, and even for functioning in the world and staying alive, etc., most of them are pretty wrong and you could just not listen to them, yea?

Exactly.
Thoughts are tools…. sometimes useful, sometimes not.
They never tell you what’s actually happening, only offer guesses and narratives.
You don’t have to fight or silence them.
You don’t have to believe them, either.
When the mind says, “Just in case, avoid all risk!” you can say, “Thank you for your concern,” and move on.

When you let thoughts come and go, let sensations be impersonal, let descriptions hang, what’s left?

I felt like I feel in love with a random object! Was happy to see what I gave my attention to without judgment became love. Would like to love “my” sensations /emotions

Great, so choose a couple of sensations and do the exercise. Let me know what is seen.

[Jenness]

Exactly.
Thoughts are tools…. sometimes useful, sometimes not.
They never tell you what’s actually happening, only offer guesses and narratives.
You don’t have to fight or silence them.
You don’t have to believe them, either.
When the mind says, “Just in case, avoid all risk!” you can say, “Thank you for your concern,” and move on.

Okay, want to remember there’s a third way, not fighting or stopping them, but don’t have to believe them. They can be there and can fall back into I don’t know rather than i believe it because it’s here and has accompanying sensations.

When you let thoughts come and go, let sensations be impersonal, let descriptions hang, what’s left?

They come endlessly it feels like, “mine mine mine”, “me, me , me”, “bad, bad, bad” “you gotta fix it, try this”. Just like a stream the keeps going. I’m not sure what’s left, a little bit of love when the attention shifts off that stream, and the awareness of both the stream and the love

Great, so choose a couple of sensations and do the exercise. Let me know what is seen.

Tried with the fear , and keep getting hooked on the thoughts but similar to above, attention unhooks from believing or fighting thoughts sometimes and then there’s some love. Tried to give attention to the thoughts, but kind of ignoring their content so there’s less doing/trying to catch what they’re all saying, felt love there as well, and then the “what if they’re right. You need to pay attention to them” comes in , and more fear. But then look around and just see there’s no threats right now. Need more practice with this, and then to also be able to do in social situations

[graceabounds]

Yes, continue to practice setting aside the thought and looking into what is effortlessly present in the body. Continue to ground as you did into direct experience: is there any sign of a threat here or only the thought of one?

not fighting or stopping them, but don’t have to believe them

Yes, because ‘you’ are not creating them, as we have seen. And they aren’t able to change anything, just predict endlessly what may or may not happen.


And here is something that I’d like you to try…

See if you can identify where in space thoughts emerge. Where they are heard from or ‘seen’ or known…
Then imagine a big dial there, and turn the volume down.
So when you notice:

They come endlessly it feels like, “mine mine mine”, “me, me , me”, “bad, bad, bad” “you gotta fix it, try this”

Just imagine turning the volume down, or if they are images, turning up the fog or static so they are less distinct. Then ground into seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling in real time.

Ground into what you are describing as love, which is always present. Let me know what happens.

[Jenness]

Yes, continue to practice setting aside the thought and looking into what is effortlessly present in the body. Continue to ground as you did into direct experience: is there any sign of a threat here or only the thought of one?

Been in a bit of a freak out because saw more clearly that there’s no one thinking the thoughts, feeling the feelings, doing the attentional effort , actions etc. Trying to see the thoughts but it’s murky, more just “AHHHHHH” “ this is not okay” , maybe there’s a “ there HAS to be a self here or else”, maybe it’s just a simple “or else there’s no Jen and that’s not tolerable”, but there’s also a “I hope it stays seen through. I hope that I saw it in a meditation doesn’t make it harder for it to stay seen through” . Around the emotions, there’s thoughts of “this is too high energy a feeling” “I need to distract and get away” “there’s nothing I can do about it other than wait it out.” “I shouldn’t do anything about it or it’d be a coping strategy to get away from the fear? Or it would reinforce the idea that there’s a doer?” “Still some murkiness around that”. Effortlessly present is the awareness of the sensations , and tuning into the sensations, and asking the question, no, there’s no sign of a threat, only the thought that there’s a problem. And it feels a little better :)
So thinking about it, seems fine to look at the thoughts I’m hooked on and see they’re not true, that’s not going strengthen a belief in thoughts. And fine to look at and stay with the sensations and explore, but maybe want to keep in mind that there’s no one looking and staying with the emotions and exploring, that it’s all that’s happening is a wanting of relief, and the looking and staying with sensations and exploring itself?

Yes, because ‘you’ are not creating them, as we have seen. And they aren’t able to change anything, just predict endlessly what may or may not happen.

My brain gets a bit confused with this because it feels like thoughts are needed for me to know how to do things like talk to people, etc. and the thoughts can guide me towards doing things that change what happens. That’s not the case?

And here is something that I’d like you to try…

See if you can identify where in space thoughts emerge. Where they are heard from or ‘seen’ or known…
Then imagine a big dial there, and turn the volume down.
So when you notice:

Just imagine turning the volume down, or if they are images, turning up the fog or static so they are less distinct. Then ground into seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling in real time.

Ground into what you are describing as love, which is always present. Let me know what happens.

Hard to have thoughts not keep catching and keeping the fear going, but it dampens it. And then grounding into the love makes everything feel better and more okay. It’s okay to use that to feel better? Thanks for this exercise today. Helped the fear come down so I can better go to sleep

[graceabounds]

Been in a bit of a freak out because saw more clearly that there’s no one thinking the thoughts, feeling the feelings, doing the attentional effort , actions etc

Perfect.
So… if no one thinking the thoughts, who is owning the thoughts freaking out?

And fine to look at and stay with the sensations and explore, but maybe want to keep in mind that there’s no one looking and staying with the emotions and exploring, that it’s all that’s happening is a wanting of relief, and the looking and staying with sensations and exploring itself?

Yes, dive into the wanting sensation, explore it, though even the keeping ‘in mind’ is a thought, is intentional… and can be released too, alongside the thought of the one doing it… where does that arise from?

It comes down to here —>

My brain gets a bit confused with this because it feels like thoughts are needed for me to know how to do things like talk to people, etc. and the thoughts can guide me towards doing things that change what happens

This can’t be understood in thought, only experienced and seen. So lets look at actual experience, not belief:

When you’re in the flow of a conversation, is there a constant running commentary guiding each word?

If you had to think, “move tongue, shape lips, contract throat,” would you ever get a sentence out?

Try speaking a sentence out loud, When you’re speaking, notice how much is automatic, just arising, words flowing, gestures maybe, not managed step-by-step by thought.
Is talking happening because of thought, or is thought narrating what talking is?

Now move your hand. Or go back to the hand exercise from a while back.
Did a thought cause the movement, or did it just narrate after the fact?

When you look with this level of honesty, does anything stop working?

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!
Sorry I skipped a day, had a daylong retreat and didn’t plan my time well

Perfect.
So… if no one thinking the thoughts, who is owning the thoughts freaking out?

I had gotten distracted and the freak out had subsided but looking again now and it’s back. And when no one is found owning the freak out it gets bigger. Some initial sadness that it’s not “owned by anyone” then it felt more free and it expanded and a layer lifted. Then more sadness, like a loneliness that there’s not even a self to watch over and help “me,” almost like the child me created a me to at least have someone there to interact with and feel like someone’s going to help keep it safe. And now the emotions feel kind of devoid of humanness, like they’re almost just like objects, and it’s like “oh no, was I not human?” Can’t tell if “ownership” was what made me feel like I was present as a human or if there’s some dissociation if making it so I can’t feel the things that make me feel still present. I want to say the ownership is what made me feel like I was here.

Yes, dive into the wanting sensation, explore it, though even the keeping ‘in mind’ is a thought, is intentional… and can be released too, alongside the thought of the one doing it… where does that arise from?

Thanks! Just streams of intention and owning them. Does it get released by letting it just realize at some point those are intentional, instead of intentionally trying to make it happen?

This can’t be understood in thought, only experienced and seen. So lets look at actual experience, not belief:

When you’re in the flow of a conversation, is there a constant running commentary guiding each word?

If you had to think, “move tongue, shape lips, contract throat,” would you ever get a sentence out?

Try speaking a sentence out loud, When you’re speaking, notice how much is automatic, just arising, words flowing, gestures maybe, not managed step-by-step by thought.
Is talking happening because of thought, or is thought narrating what talking is?

Now move your hand. Or go back to the hand exercise from a while back.
Did a thought cause the movement, or did it just narrate after the fact?

When you look with this level of honesty, does anything stop working?

It feels like there’s two different levels, like there’s basic stuff that just happens, and then when I’m in conversations, it does feel like I use thoughts to be like “hmm if I say it this way, that doesn’t seem like it would come off well, let me word it differently”, or “should I say that or let it go?” Those kind of thoughts are unneeded as well? It’s happening without words already?

[graceabounds]

almost like the child me created a me to at least have someone there to interact with and feel like someone’s going to help keep it safe. And now the emotions feel kind of devoid of humanness

Yes. The “self” was invented as a coping strategy.
Now there is seeing that it’s not real. It never was, but it acted kind of like a security blanket to try to smooth over what was uncomfortable.

You’re seeing emotions without ownership, or personalization, for the first time. And without ownership, they feel strange, alien, mechanical, object‑like. Let the loneliness come. It’s not personal. It’s just the body letting go of an internal ghost, like an imaginary friend.

The emotions also can lose their teeth if the underlying thought belief is let go. Thoughts like “I was wronged or victimized” “I am not good enough/worthy” “I need to be vigilant” “Its my fault” don’t echo with emotion in the system because the thought in the equation (emotion = thought + sensation) is seen through.

Feel it… Don’t analyze it. There isn’t any more story making that needs to be done here and this disorientation is a normal part of the process.

I want to say the ownership is what made me feel like I was here.

Once ownership dissolves, what’s left? Tell me.

You’re not disappearing. The story of you is disappearing.


In conversations, is the voice of the thoughts that come a commentator or a commander? Does it have any control about what is actually said?


Right now, in the center of this freak‑out, can you find a self at all?

[Jenness]

The emotions also can lose their teeth if the underlying thought belief is let go. Thoughts like “I was wronged or victimized” “I am not good enough/worthy” “I need to be vigilant” “Its my fault” don’t echo with emotion in the system because the thought in the equation (emotion = thought + sensation) is seen through.

By losing its teeth, did you mean they don’t get as triggered, or not as sticky when triggered?

Once ownership dissolves, what’s left? Tell me.

The 5 senses seem to stay the same. There’s still this foggy dense feeling of ownership that keeps coming back, like a pacifier so I can feel like “I’m here”. that pacifier thought helps loosen it and the density dissipates and it kind of feels like the emotional sensations flow out too and then the body is more transparent and a new wave of emotions and ownership come back in. Lots of sadness “but I need to be here” “I don’t want to have never been here” sadness that “awareness doesn’t seem to care if I’m here or not” and layers of it releasing, but seems to be lots of layers but as the sadness is less owned, less of a need for it to go away, there’s a little bit of a neutralness towards it. But when apply the neutralness “it’s all okay to be here” feeling towards sensations in general, then an intense feeling I don’t really know the name for hits. It’s like a heaviness freezeness of the whole body, and can find thoughts in response to it like “what the heck is this?” “Hard to do anything or want to do anything” kind of like a shut down feeling from too much intensity? Can’t really find the imbedded thoughts of the feeling itself though, maybe just a “it’s too much, got to shut down.” If the intensity is welcomed in, then it’s just really uncomfortable and so goes back to, let’s shut down or go back to pushing it out.

You’re not disappearing. The story of you is disappearing.

The stuff left is still me? Initially there were thoughts of that’s just senses, that’s not a me, I don’t want to be that, but then a little feel of joy of “touching” the senses, and then back to sadness.

In conversations, is the voice of the thoughts that come a commentator or a commander? Does it have any control about what is actually said?

It seems to be more a commentator giving information that seems good, and does seem to influence the action that gets taken when it’s believed to be good info, like: attention goes internally to “think through situation”, thought comes in, believed, acted out according to thought. I don’t think it has control per se but it appears to shifts the outcome?

Right now, in the center of this freak‑out, can you find a self at all?

[graceabounds]

There’s been a pattern here for a long while of asking for clarification on many of the things said here. All these words are just labels, not the thing itself. The purpose of the exchange is to point not to debate. The invitation is to let go of trying to figure all this out or get comfortable with what clear seeing will be like and simply LOOK.


Who is the one who is unsure?
Where does this live in the body?
What is driving phrases like ‘appears to’ or ‘seems to’?

The stuff left is still me?

The stuff left is what is. :)

Going forward notice where the question is coming from… who needs to know? What in the imagination will knowing provide? Then drop into the unknowing and uncertainty and be with that.

If the intensity is welcomed in, then it’s just really uncomfortable and so goes back to, let’s shut down or go back to pushing it out.

The way out is through.


Also didn’t get the answer to this question:

Right now, in the center of this freak‑out, can you find a self at all?

[Jenness]

Who is the one who is unsure?
Where does this live in the body?
What is driving phrases like ‘appears to’ or ‘seems to’?

When I look , there isn’t anyone unsure, it’s just a literal haziness or foggyness in the seeing screen that I label as “haven’t directly seen it yet. Can’t get a clear look. Need to continue looking, but I’ll give my best guess for now.” The sensation of haziness is all over, a hazing out of experience, a covering. Sensations tend to be clearer because there’s enough that some will always still be visible behind the cloud but thoughts and what they’re doing, not so much. I miss a lot of thoughts. What’s driving those phrases is also a thought of “I’ve definitely believed and thought I saw thoughts change the course what I do in conversations, but it’s not happening right now, so I can only speculate” and a “don’t ever assume you have the complete picture if it’s still a little hazy. Hedge because you don’t want to claim it as true when you’re not sure yet.”

Going forward notice where the question is coming from… who needs to know? What in the imagination will knowing provide? Then drop into the unknowing and uncertainty and be with that.

Sounds good

The way out is through.

Helpful , decreases my avoidance of feeling it

Also didn’t get the answer to this question:

Right now, in the center of this freak‑out, can you find a self at all?

There’s a strong feeling that there’s a self, but no self. As the thoughts are seen without a thinker “get that feeling away from me. it’s definitely a problem.” “i don’t want to be with it and do this anymore”, etc. the feeling of a sense of self lightens too and it feels better.

[graceabounds]

I miss a lot of thoughts.

Take a look: is this true?

What if thought isn’t running anything? Is there anything important to miss?

Is there someone, a separate someone, to miss them?

[Jenness]

Take a look: is this true?

It’s not so true anymore! I used to catch myself driven by thought without knowing I was caught in them, like I think I’m doing something helpful, but it’s just trying to make my ego feel better about itself, but it’s clearer what I’m trying to get out of what I’m doing now that I look. Came from these explorations with you - thank you!

What if thought isn’t running anything? Is there anything important to miss?

No. This was really helpful. If I just ignore the thoughts, It’s just sensory expertises and emotional sensations, without the sense that there’s a problem with those sensations, and then things are just fine

Is there someone, a separate someone, to miss them?

No, whatever happens just happens, I can be okay with the resulting emotions and outcomes. There’s no awful life-ending consequence on the line like my thoughts thought there was.