It's hard to accept

[Magdalena]

I'm only interested from the perspective of noticing the difference, and 'feeling' the nature of what it is that notices.

You’re being sucked into mental rabbit holes. Collecting information, comparing bits of it, drawing conclusions, theorising the differences, speculating…

What if there was no mind fodder to chew on any more?
Simply life unfolding – just like that?

I'm looking for how I can tell when I'm in one or the other.

What if there was no telling the difference between one and the other?

as I write this, all my thoughts and attention are on the subject, but I'm guessing I'm not with 'underlying silence' (I like that) just by virtue of the fact I'm 'thinking' about it. Or can there be 'thoughts' from that underlying silence ?

Mind fodder.

Is anything separate from the silence/sweet spot?
LOOK – LET IT SINK IN.

I find this fascinating.

Is that what you’re after? Fascinating mind fodder?

people who seek and dig and try etc etc are more likely to "See" than someone who has never even thought about it. Obviously there are exceptions, but in the main isn't that fair to say ? And if so, it would suggest that what I might do, might matter...

More mind fodder.

It feels like some point of awareness is missing.

I have no idea what you’re talking about, but I’m pretty sure it’s some nice and chewy mind fodder AGAIN.

It's like I'm only playing with it and not taking it seriously....even though it is currently the most important thing in my life. If I was taking it seriously, I would have "Seen" wouldn't I ?

What is there to be taken seriously enough to see or not to see? (if you take mind fodder away, that is)

It's hard to accept that I'm not who I think I am...

Look, here’s some things you’ve said in the course of this conversation:
1) you’ve seen that Jonny the separate self is about as real as thinking makes him;
2) you’re aware of mind chatter;
3) you’re aware of the “sweet spot”;
4) you’re not identified with Jonny’s first name, surname, cv, etc.;
5) you’ve seen that what appears as Jonny’s body has no boundaries and that the same goes for “another” (e.g. the dog’s body).


So where TF (pardon my French) is that which you say you think you are, i.e. Jonny??

If there are no boundaries between Jonny’s hand and the dog’s fur, where’s the line between “Jonny” and whatever’s unfolding right now?


If there are no boundaries anywhere, what can ever melt?


What’s there that’s hard to accept?


What would happen if you stopped checking where you are?


If you stopped trying to determine whether “you” are “in the sweet spot” or not?


What is preventing actually living from this seeing rather than speculate and theorise about what is being seen?

[JonnyP]

Hi Magdalena, hope you're well..

What if there was no mind fodder to chew on any more?
Simply life unfolding – just like that?

My mind loves that idea :(

What if there was no telling the difference between one and the other?

That causes my mind to pause. It's so tempting to think about that. It feels like a leap of faith thing, and that's as good as a wall for me.

as I write this, all my thoughts and attention are on the subject, but I'm guessing I'm not with 'underlying silence' (I like that) just by virtue of the fact I'm 'thinking' about it. Or can there be 'thoughts' from that underlying silence ?
Mind fodder.

Is anything separate from the silence/sweet spot?
LOOK – LET IT SINK IN.

I can see my mind at play ALL the fucking time. When I'm in the sweet spot, there is an experience of enormity and closeness all at the same time, and the thinking is as silent as it ever is. When I 'come out' of that place (yes I know that's not actually possible, but it is my experience atm) there is no evidence that the experience was localised or non-localised. I have no evidence either way. Letting something sink in sounds as easy as pie, on paper, but if there is nothing other than the experience, what am I letting in ? I know questions follow that ask whether I can find boundaries or a self etc etc.... But, as I've said before, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. I can't tell you enough how sorry I am about repeating this. I know it must grate to some degree, multiply that by 1,000,000 for my experience of it. That's my wall that isn't there, and I don't know how to get through it.

Is that what you’re after? Fascinating mind fodder?

No I'm not. I'm either angry/frustrated about it all, or I'm fascinated by stuff. Apparently thoughts are not the problem, identifying with them is. So I thought thoughts were ok to have. Not that I can stop them anyway.

I have no idea what you’re talking about, but I’m pretty sure it’s some nice and chewy mind fodder AGAIN.

Let me guess.... just LOOK and see

What is there to be taken seriously enough to see or not to see? (if you take mind fodder away, that is)

I have no answer for that.

Look, here’s some things you’ve said in the course of this conversation:
1) you’ve seen that Jonny the separate self is about as real as thinking makes him;
2) you’re aware of mind chatter;
3) you’re aware of the “sweet spot”;
4) you’re not identified with Jonny’s first name, surname, cv, etc.;
5) you’ve seen that what appears as Jonny’s body has no boundaries and that the same goes for “another” (e.g. the dog’s body).


So where TF (pardon my French) is that which you say you think you are, i.e. Jonny??

I have no idea ! And I have no idea why I should be able to find it if it was there !
A leap of faith seems to be required

If there are no boundaries between Jonny’s hand and the dog’s fur, where’s the line between “Jonny” and whatever’s unfolding right now?

No idea, no line.

If there are no boundaries anywhere, what can ever melt?

There are no boundaries between my hand and the ice, nor between the ice and the liquid water, yet the ice can melt.
I know I'm annoying, most of all to myself. But these questions arise and I can't just pretend they're not there.

What’s there that’s hard to accept?

I can't accept what I can't SEE. I can see, but I don't SEE. I don't know how else to explain it. Apparently we both see the same things, but you SEE and I don't. I know that's a story, and a thought etc.... I don't know what else to say, do, think.... And I also know that I don't need to do anything.....
I've been for a walk since starting to write this, and all I could do was to look at how all this frustration, doubt, self criticism etc felt in my body.... A pit in my stomach that was linked with hopelessness and tears. It felt old. Maybe I need to do more therapy / shadow work... I don't know..... And of course the that's all to do with the self, so how the fuck is that going to help...

What would happen if you stopped checking where you are?

I have a PHD in procrastination, so I fear I would just drift off in banal activities and pursuits...
Of course I wouldn't, because I'm addicted to this...

If you stopped trying to determine whether “you” are “in the sweet spot” or not?

I'm not sure.... probably exist in some kind of misguided complacency. Complacently miserable... if that's even possible.

What is preventing actually living from this seeing rather than speculate and theorise about what is being seen?

You're talking from a SEEing that you see and it's not a SEEing that I see. I accept that it must be one and the same, but accepting it doesn't seem to make it apparent to me.
I can see I'm at an impasse that is apparently not there, that's why I keep trying find clues, pointers etc. There are contradictions that bug me, and that's why I ask about the relationship between self and what ever I perceive there to be that is separate. Of course it's all bollocks, but I can only do what I can do, and after all nothing else could happen !!!
I've been wondering if I'm actually wasting your time Magdalena... Yes I'm feeling a little sorry for myself, which doesn't help. But ..... I HAVE NO IDEA about what I can do that's different... and yes I know it's not about doing... I just have to keep looking and looking and looking

[Magdalena]

It takes ONE LOOK.

Is there actually a “you” who can or cannot see? Or is there just the thought that there’s a “you” who is failing at something?

Where is this impasse, other than as a belief?

Right now, where is the wall - other than in the thought that says there is a wall?

If you stop seeking the sweet spot and everything else, what remains?

If you don’t check where you are, don’t evaluate whether you SEE or not — what’s actually here?

That frustration, that anger, that hopelessness — what are they without the story attached?

What’s left if you don’t explain them, fix them, or turn them into a problem?

Look without analysing. Feel without labeling. What is actually present?

If you don’t touch a single thought, if you don’t try to figure anything out — what is left, right now?

[JonnyP]

Hiya Magdalena,

Is there actually a “you” who can or cannot see?

I don't understand that form of question anymore.
If I look for an 'I', it can't be found. (I still don't get why it's considered that it should be findable if it exists).

'Looking' happens. Some SEE and some don't.

The seeker can never SEE (Yes that's my assumption based on second hand information)

The ones that SEE are not seeing from their illusory selves, but they do SEE. Who are they ?
If the 'they' referred to in the previous sentence is not actually anything other than just 'SEEING', then who is providing the medium of communication to talk about it ?

Is the communication mediated through the illusory self ? or just the body mechanism?

When enquiry happens, who's enquiring ?
Is the answer to that, 'no one', and enquiring is just happening. If it is just happening, is the medium of communication about it, the illusory self ?

In a conversation about this subject, am I wrong to assume thought has to occur in order for responses to form ?
If not, then at least the body is being used, can I say that ?

I think you said that I was right to not try to get rid of the self, but rather to see through it..
So the confusion for me comes from not knowing if I'm talking and seeing from the self (Jonny) or from 'not the self.

Where is this impasse, other than as a belief?

The impasse never was in a place, it's a stuck bit of processing. So yes, it's a belief

Right now, where is the wall - other than in the thought that says there is a wall?

Same as the previous answer.

If you stop seeking the sweet spot and everything else, what remains?

Everything

If you don’t check where you are, don’t evaluate whether you SEE or not — what’s actually here?

Everything

That frustration, that anger, that hopelessness — what are they without the story attached?

Body sensations

What’s left if you don’t explain them, fix them, or turn them into a problem?

Body sensations

Look without analysing. Feel without labeling. What is actually present?

Who is that question directed at ?

If you don’t touch a single thought, if you don’t try to figure anything out — what is left, right now?

'Everything' I think, but again, I'm not sure who it is that's answering that ?


I just don't know who I am ! How can I trust anything !
I know what I'm not, but who TF is it that knows that !?
How can I just look if I don't know who's looking ? I might look from self or I might look from no-self, and I'll have no idea which it is !
'Just' implies simplicity. It's only simple if you know, and I don't know

[Magdalena]

You're still caught in a conceptual loop, trying to “locate” what’s looking instead of JUST LOOKING.

Where is the “I” that needs to verify SEEing?

I don’t know who I am!

And? Does anything need a “someone” to see this moment?
Does seeing need a seer?
LOOK.
Don't philosophise.
LOOK.

I might look from self or I might look from no-self, and I’ll have no idea which it is!

Drop the “I” entirely. Just look. Without needing to know who’s looking—what is seen?

It’s only simple if you know.

No, it’s simple BEFORE knowing/thinking steps in to claim it.


What you're saying is all thought demanding control. Can you see this?
You need to stop circling around the edge of the pool and just fall in.

[JonnyP]

You're still caught in a conceptual loop, trying to “locate” what’s looking instead of JUST LOOKING.

Where is the “I” that needs to verify SEEing?

I'm not sure I'm explaining my self very well. I have no interest in locating anything. I am just aware of the fact that even when I'm in the sweet spot, it feels like a localised experience. And as far as I can make out, that means I am experiencing something, but it's not 'no-self'
I totally accept that the localised experience I'm talking about, has no findable locality. At the risk of sounding like a scratched record, I don't understand how not being able to find a self, proves that it doesn't exist.
All I care about is SEEing. I can see the potential for bypassing intellectually and 'thinking' I can SEE, when it's actually just intellectual seeing.
I've been asked, and I've asked myself, hundreds of times "where is the I ?" I know it's not findable.

And? Does anything need a “someone” to see this moment?
Does seeing need a seer?
LOOK.
Don't philosophise.
LOOK.

No, seeing does not need a seer.
All I can do is relate it to my work. When I'm in that space, looking is happening, and I watch that looking, kind of from the corner of my eye (metaphorically) So even when I'm in what I've labeled as a 'sweet spot', it's not 'no-self' because of my apparent watching from what feels like 'my' locality

Drop the “I” entirely. Just look. Without needing to know who’s looking—what is seen?

That sounds so easy on paper. I don't know what to do with that suggestion without an action of 'dropping' taking place, and I have no idea how to do that, even from an intellectual place.
Even without a label, the looking 'out of the corner of my eye' thing, feel like it has a location, no matter what it's called.

What you're saying is all thought demanding control. Can you see this?
You need to stop circling around the edge of the pool and just fall in.

Yes I can see thought is demanding control. When I read back through what I write, as if someone else wrote it, it reeks of resistance.
It seems like a leap of faith is needed, but the trouble is I have no idea how to do that. I don't know where the pool is, let alone it's edge, and what does falling even mean ?

I'm sorry Magdalena, I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse. I annoy the shit out of myself. I wish I didn't have to make it so hard, but I can't lie about what I see, what I feel, and what my experience is. I'm plagued by doubt, and even though I know that it's a thought, knowing things intellectually doesn't actually help
It's like shoveling shit up hill.
The questions keep coming. I could just try to deny their existence, but that's not going to work. I could just 'LOOK' or just 'FALL IN', but I have no idea how to.

[Magdalena]

Hello there, Jonny,

I'm sorry Magdalena, I'm not trying to be deliberately obtuse. I annoy the shit out of myself. I wish I didn't have to make it so hard, but I can't lie about what I see, what I feel, and what my experience is.

I know. Being honest about it all is the way to go.
No need to label yourself as this or that, no need to apologise.

If you already see that the answers are intellectual, then what is actually HERE beyond them? Right now, without needing an answer—what is left?

The questions keep coming. I could just try to deny their existence, but that's not going to work. I could just 'LOOK' or just 'FALL IN', but I have no idea how to.

Before the thought “I have no idea how to” arises – what’s there?


When this or any any other thought arrives,
STOP
Right now – no thinking – no answering.
Just BE.


What if there is no “aha” moment coming, no shift needed, no way to verify this — just THIS, as it is?

See that there is no pool, no edge, right now – what is there that needs to fall??

[JonnyP]

Hiya Magdalena,

If you already see that the answers are intellectual, then what is actually HERE beyond them? Right now, without needing an answer—what is left?

I can't tell whether it's nothing, or everything.

Before the thought “I have no idea how to” arises – what’s there?

I feel blind and stupid, and before that, hope and nothing.

What if there is no “aha” moment coming, no shift needed, no way to verify this — just THIS, as it is?

Then I am me, alone. Part of everything else that is going on, but separate, just as everything else is separate. Everything is separate but linked by a common sense of separateness. Like a football team, separate players who, if they are a good team, can communicate at a deep intuitive level to act as one .

See that there is no pool, no edge, right now – what is there that needs to fall??

This question just leaves me blank. I have no answer. Part of me wants to say "ME", but that's just a desperate hope thought, rather than anything I actually know.

[JonnyP]

Sorry, I forgot to put your 1st bit in quotes !

[Magdalena]

Hey Jonny,


You've done some very good looking.

I can't tell whether it's nothing, or everything.

Then I am me, alone.

This question just leaves me blank.

What if "blank" is it? No answer, no resolution — just this raw openness?

Before the thought "I am me, alone" appears—what’s there?

Where is this "me" that is alone? Without thought telling you, can you actually find it?


Right now, drop every attempt to figure this out.
Just sit.
Just be.
No searching, no answering.
What is left?



What if this blank, this not-knowing, is it?


What if the lack of answers is the answer?

[JonnyP]

Right now, drop every attempt to figure this out.
Just sit.
Just be.
No searching, no answering.
What is left?

I've sat with this for a day or so and all I get is deep deep sadness and dread

What if "blank" is it? No answer, no resolution — just this raw openness?

It doesn't feel like raw openness. Raw maybe, but not openness.

Before the thought "I am me, alone" appears—what’s there?

"This as it is.." feels like Sadness and death.... That sounds overly dramatic, sorry. I still go through life with a smile on my face, but just not when I look into this.

Where is this "me" that is alone? Without thought telling you, can you actually find it?

This old chestnut !.... No I can't find it, and I don't expect to be able to.

What if this blank, this not-knowing, is it?


What if the lack of answers is the answer?

Both those questions just make me want to give up and try to live a 'normal human life', wishing I'd never started seeking.

Sorry Magdalena, all my responses seem to 'dull'' and 'down'. But in all honesty, that's where it takes me lol..

Underneath it all, It's fear of course. I know that. I don't actually cry, but that is the feeling that wells up inside when I look at all this.

[Magdalena]

Hello there, Jonny,


No need to be sorry, it’s all a natural unfolding. I know it doesn’t feel like it’s all good – and yet that’s what it is.
You are at the edge, staring into the void, and so fear is gripping tight.


But what exactly is being lost here?

What is actually dying?

LOOK.



What happens if you stop resisting this?

If you stop calling it sadness, stop calling it fear — what is left?

LOOK.
SIT.
BE.

[JonnyP]

Hiya

No need to be sorry, it’s all a natural unfolding. I know it doesn’t feel like it’s all good – and yet that’s what it is.
You are at the edge, staring into the void, and so fear is gripping tight.

But what exactly is being lost here?

What is actually dying?

It feels like hope is being lost. Your questions point me to notice something or see something, but I see nothing.
For example....

"Right now, drop every attempt to figure this out.
Just sit.
Just be.
No searching, no answering.
What is left?

I look for what is left, and I find nothing. So it feels like the end of hope.

What happens if you stop resisting this?

I don't know what or how I'm resisting ! If I did, at least I might be able to see how to drop it. If I did manage to stop resisting, maybe a herd of sparkly unicorns would thunder past me in a cloud of glitter dust ! who knows.....

If you stop calling it sadness, stop calling it fear — what is left?

All that comes up is more descriptions... I'd say 'Loss', but I'm pretty sure you're not looking for that sort of thing.

It seems impossible to 'be' without thought in some way, shape or form.
When I sit to see what's before thought, all I can get is the thought that I'm looking...
If I'm in the 'sweet spot', thoughts are not so much there, but the awareness of what's there, be it looking or some other awareness, is always there. And it feels local, so there I am again, thinking.
That's why I bang on about trying to 'get' (sorry, no other word right now) how it is people talk about this with it not involving the self. You ask me to 'look' but you won't tell me what or who is looking, or who or what you are even talking to. All experience feels wrong because it indicates I'm still in thought or 'coming from' the self.
I don't know what is left because in order to 'See'/'find' what is left, I seem to need a self or a thought to notice it. Yes noticing is just happening, but my awareness of that noticing is local to me.

[Magdalena]

Hey Jonny,

Your questions point me to notice something or see something, but I see nothing. ...

l look for what is left, and I find nothing. So it feels like the end of hope.

What if there is NOTHING to find?

What if NOTHING appearing is EXACTLY what there is to SEE?

All experience feels wrong because it indicates I'm still in thought or 'coming from' the self.

It is what it is. Struggling won't change it.

Yes noticing is just happening, but my awareness of that noticing is local to me.

Shut up for a moment.

There is nothing to figure out.
Nothing to grasp.
Nothing to do.
This is IT, exactly as it is.
It's staring you in the face.

Be quiet and SEE.

[Magdalena]

Hey Jonny,

How's it going?