Couldn't get it, couldn't forget it

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,

I am open to either of these options. I respect your sense of whether or not the process can continue profitably as it is.

It's good that you are committed. I didn't want this commitment to diminish because of the guidance, and I wanted to give you some options before this commitment expired. Let's do this; we can continue on; I will review and consider different ways of coming at this guidance; if at any point your commitment starts to come off, please feel free to ask for a new guide; this is perfectly acceptable, this is a volunteer service, there is no judgement. If this option works for you then we can continue.

There is commitment to this inquiry, and I do want to see it through. This sense of ... apathy? indifference? - is it a common phase?

Honestly, everyone is different and the reactions are different, try to remember that there is a life time of conditioning and this conditioning can be self preserving. But you have to ask what is really happening, apathy, indifference these are labels that you are putting on bodily sensations, these sensations are in a subtle way making you physically uncomfortable and then this contraction in the body is then being labelled by the thinking, storytelling mind as apathy and indifference.

What if you changed those labels?

If we use the thought story to label the direct experience and then continue to believe this thought story, we are subject to the suffering it creates. If you believe that these senses aren't right for what you want, you want something different than what is actually happening. This is suffering.

Relabel these labels and feel into them with DE. Make a little description of how these feel once you relabel them.

What if apathy was relabeled as Peace?

What if Indifference was relabeled Relaxed/Expanding?

What if 'limp relief' was relabeled quite relief?

Now, please look deeply at what you really want, not the scripted jargon that the spirituality world builds narratives around. Look very closely at what you want precisely from this dialogue, and please describe it.

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for the options. Let's continue on, unless it stops furthering the goal.

these sensations are in a subtle way making you physically uncomfortable and then this contraction in the body is then being labelled by the thinking, storytelling mind as apathy and indifference.

Yes. This is labeling.

What if apathy was relabeled as Peace?

What if Indifference was relabeled Relaxed/Expanding?

What if 'limp relief' was relabeled quite relief?

Yes. This is still labeling, yes? but it does not create suffering. The "labels" describe what I really want. Peace. Quiet relief. Surrender in the war with thought. A flowing ease, deepest relaxation. Do you mean describe with direct bodily experience? Possibly the absence of sensation. When it Is glimpsed, it seems smooth, loose, easy, like nothing to do, nowhere to be. Relief.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,

Body sensations make everything uncomfortable and restless, so we label these sensations to try and make sense of them. If we become intimate with these sensations and welcome them, then we have a connection to them, become comfortable with them, and recognise them for the safety that they offer the body.

When it Is glimpsed, it seems smooth, loose, easy, like nothing to do, nowhere to be. Relief.

When these "glimpses are experienced" what is happening in the body, if you can recall?

Let's get back into an exercise or two.

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

Body sensations make everything uncomfortable and restless, so we label these sensations to try and make sense of them. If we become intimate with these sensations and welcome them, then we have a connection to them, become comfortable with them, and recognise them for the safety that they offer the body.

Thank you - this helps.

When it Is glimpsed, it seems smooth, loose, easy, like nothing to do, nowhere to be. Relief.

When these "glimpses are experienced" what is happening in the body, if you can recall?

It is fairly frequent, so I can recall. It feels soft, soft, soft. Relaxed. Cool. Visceral,but not really localized to an area (solar plexus, chest, etc.).

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Strange. The hand doesn't flip at all, in this case. The thought "flip now" doesn't flip it. It looks like spite. :) Roxanne seems not to be controlling the hand.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Nothing chose which hand. It seems the hand doesn't "want" to flip, and thoughts of flipping don't produce flipping. But, it "wants" to type this response ... okay, I'm typing gibberish. When the impulse arises, the hand flips. The thought seems to be ineffective in flipping the hand. When the impulse arises to type this response, the response is typed.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,

It is fairly frequent, so I can recall. It feels soft, soft, soft. Relaxed. Cool. Visceral,but not really localized to an area (solar plexus, chest, etc.).

Consider the possibility that there is only one sensation?
Feel the sensation in the bottom of your feet and then feel the sensations in the top of your head. Is there a space between them?
or is it one sensation occupying the same space?

Sit with this and feel into the sensation and notice what is there:

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

Consider the possibility that there is only one sensation?
Feel the sensation in the bottom of your feet and then feel the sensations in the top of your head. Is there a space between them?
or is it one sensation occupying the same space?

Is the suggestion that there might be only one sensation at all times, rather than "hot," "tight," etc.?

I will look.

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

Consider the possibility that there is only one sensation?
Feel the sensation in the bottom of your feet and then feel the sensations in the top of your head. Is there a space between them?
or is it one sensation occupying the same space?

Is the suggestion that there might be only one sensation at all times, rather than "hot," "tight," etc.?<

At first look, it seems that sensations come and go, and then return to a soft, round, "non-sensation."

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,

At first look, it seems that sensations come and go, and then return to a soft, round, "non-sensation."

If you take away the label is there a multitude of different sensations or is there just what is?

Is there an experiencer of these sensations?

If there is where is this experiencer?

Does the experience need an experiencer to happen?

Without a thought to label these sensations and compare them to the last one, what is there?

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

If you take away the label is there a multitude of different sensations or is there just what is?

"Just what is" is fair.

Is there an experiencer of these sensations? If there is where is this experiencer?

The body is the experiencer.

Does the experience need an experiencer to happen?

Things can happen without anything experiencing them. It's hard to say it's an "experience," though. If it's experienced, it's an experience. If it's not experienced, it just happened.

Without a thought to label these sensations and compare them to the last one, what is there?

What is there is what is there.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,

If you take away the label is there a multitude of different sensations or is there just what is?

"Just what is" is fair.

Is there an experiencer of these sensations? If there is where is this experiencer?

The body is the experiencer.

Does the experience need an experiencer to happen?

Things can happen without anything experiencing them. It's hard to say it's an "experience," though. If it's experienced, it's an experience. If it's not experienced, it just happened.

Without a thought to label these sensations and compare them to the last one, what is there?

What is there is what is there.

All This is Thought, none of this was answered from Direct Experience.
Lets try again and sit with each question and be 100% sure before answering. LOOK

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

I'm going to step away from our line of inquiry for a bit. It has become too intense and frustrating at the moment to be conducive to clear sight. Thank you very much for your efforts on my behalf.

Best,
Roxanne

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,
No Problem, when you feel its right to return, just send a message and I will respond.
Thank you for your courage to let me help.