Looking for 1 on 1

[GotIt]

Ok, it feels like something/someone is there. so LOOK at this. What does this feeling consist of? Where is the "I" located? Is this feeling not just another experience, along with an itchy head, or a pain in your toe? Does a feeling of someone being there, mean that there is in reality, someone there?

It feels fuzzy. You can definitely feel an itch or a pain in your toe. This doesn't feel like a definite thing, so it doesn't feel like an experience.

It looks like a feeling about things, like feeling frustrated when my friend was complaining a lot. That isn't an "I" though. It's just a reaction to something that is happening. Oh, I see it as my friend complains and I judge it, as in I don't like it, and then frustration arises. It's my judging of the happening that causes the frustration to arise. Me talking to myself: Is there an "I" that is doing the judging, or is the judging just happening in response/as a reaction to what is going on around me?

Looking, it sort of looks/feels like "I" want to exist because I'm afraid that if I don't exist the judging won't happen, and "I" won't be able to be right, or defend myself/my position (that my friend is frustrating, and she complains too much.). It's like "I" keep the stories going so I don't cease to exist because if "I" ceased to exist "I" wouldn't be able to be in control.

[neeeel]

It looks like a feeling about things, like feeling frustrated when my friend was complaining a lot. That isn't an "I" though. It's just a reaction to something that is happening. Oh, I see it as my friend complains and I judge it, as in I don't like it, and then frustration arises. It's my judging of the happening that causes the frustration to arise. Me talking to myself: Is there an "I" that is doing the judging, or is the judging just happening in response/as a reaction to what is going on around me?/quote]

Well, are you? Are the judgements thoughts? Are you thinking the thoughts?

Looking, it sort of looks/feels like "I" want to exist because I'm afraid that if I don't exist the judging won't happen, and "I" won't be able to be right, or defend myself/my position (that my friend is frustrating, and she complains too much.). It's like "I" keep the stories going so I don't cease to exist because if "I" ceased to exist "I" wouldn't be able to be in control.

If there is no self, then that means there is no self RIGHT NOW. You are not going to cease to exist. You never existed in the first place. All there is is belief in the thoughts about "I". Look and see if its true.

[neeeel]

Sorry, messed up the quoting in the previous post.

It looks like a feeling about things, like feeling frustrated when my friend was complaining a lot. That isn't an "I" though. It's just a reaction to something that is happening. Oh, I see it as my friend complains and I judge it, as in I don't like it, and then frustration arises. It's my judging of the happening that causes the frustration to arise. Me talking to myself: Is there an "I" that is doing the judging, or is the judging just happening in response/as a reaction to what is going on around me?

Well, are you? Are the judgements thoughts? Are you thinking the thoughts?

Looking, it sort of looks/feels like "I" want to exist because I'm afraid that if I don't exist the judging won't happen, and "I" won't be able to be right, or defend myself/my position (that my friend is frustrating, and she complains too much.). It's like "I" keep the stories going so I don't cease to exist because if "I" ceased to exist "I" wouldn't be able to be in control.

If there is no self, then that means there is no self RIGHT NOW. You are not going to cease to exist. You never existed in the first place. All there is is belief in the thoughts about "I". Look and see if its true.

[GotIt]

Well, are you? Are the judgements thoughts? Are you thinking the thoughts?

The judgments are just thoughts. Everything is just thoughts. I'm not thinking the thoughts. They just come and go on their own like out of nowhere or from my brain or something.

That being said, there something that feels like a stickiness or something when it comes to feelings. Bad feelings have a stickiness of not feeling good of feeling frustrated or whatever the bad feeling is.

In looking I feel a stickiness with negative feelings, but there's also a stickiness with positive feelings (They feel good, and I want them to stick around or something.). It feels like the grasping and clinging for/to positive emotions, and the aversion and pushing away with negative emotions which (the grasping/clinging or aversion/pushing away) then makes things more difficult as emotions just come and go on their own and you can't make them stay or go--they come when they want/on their own and leave when they want/on their own.). You can't control emotions.

If there is no self, then that means there is no self RIGHT NOW. You are not going to cease to exist. You never existed in the first place. All there is is belief in the thoughts about "I". Look and see if its true.

Why can't I see that "I" don't exist? Why am I having such a problem with this?

[neeeel]

The judgments are just thoughts. Everything is just thoughts. I'm not thinking the thoughts. They just come and go on their own like out of nowhere or from my brain or something.

Yes. If you see this, then you are seeing through a belief in self. But you say you dont see anything when you look?

That being said, there something that feels like a stickiness or something when it comes to feelings. Bad feelings have a stickiness of not feeling good of feeling frustrated or whatever the bad feeling is.

Is the stickiness also a thought? Is the label "Bad feeling" also a thought? Without the label what is left?

.... as emotions just come and go on their own and you can't make them stay or go--they come when they want/on their own and leave when they want/on their own.). You can't control emotions.

Yes. Again, if you see this, then you are seeing through a belief in self. You are seeing that there is no control over thoughts, no control over actions. You assumed for your whole life that there was a you that controlled thoughts, controlled emotions, and now when you look you see it isnt true.

Why can't I see that "I" don't exist? Why am I having such a problem with this?

Who would see that who doesnt exist ? :P

But seriously, I dont know. Maybe you have seen it, but dont realise it, and are waiting for an earth shattering experience. Maybe you are looking in the wrong place. Maybe I am pointing in the wrong place.
Keep going, keep looking, and we will get there eventually.

[GotIt]

But you say you dont see anything when you look?

I see things like thoughts without a person/doer, etc. behind them making them happen (except when it comes to the stickiness).

Is the stickiness also a thought? Is the label "Bad feeling" also a thought? Without the label what is left?

The stickiness seems to have a self behind it. I guess the label "bad feeling" is also a thought, but it feels like the stickiness that has more to it than just a thought.

Yes. Again, if you see this, then you are seeing through a belief in self. You are seeing that there is no control over thoughts, no control over actions. You assumed for your whole life that there was a you that controlled thoughts, controlled emotions, and now when you look you see it isnt true.

It's like a machine that just running with no one to turn it on. The thoughts just come. Question for whoever: what makes the feelings feel bad or feel good?

Who would see that who doesnt exist ? :P

Funny!

Maybe you have seen it, but dont realise it, and are waiting for an earth shattering experience.

If I've seen it and don't realize it, everything looks to me to be exactly the same. Nothing looks to be any different, e.g. I don't see any connectedness of things/beings/people, etc., or non-duality or any degree of separation between me and feelings or whatever--lousy feelings still feel lousy, I still feel very connected to them, etc. Everything feels exactly the same as when I started this process (as I write this, I can feel annoyance coming up, as in I am annoyed that nothing's different--to take it out further, the what's the point of having done this if everything stays the same. I don't think I expected or expect an earth shattering experience, but it seems to me like something would be different even if only slightly.). Thanks for listening to me as I rant.

Maybe you are looking in the wrong place.

If you can think of anywhere else I should look, please let me know.

Maybe I am pointing in the wrong place.

I haven't see anything that makes me think it's you.

Keep going, keep looking, and we will get there eventually.

Thanks. You're support is really helpful and really appreciated.

[neeeel]

I see things like thoughts without a person/doer, etc. behind them making them happen (except when it comes to the stickiness).

This is evidence of no self.

The stickiness seems to have a self behind it. I guess the label "bad feeling" is also a thought, but it feels like the stickiness that has more to it than just a thought.

Then LOOK at the self that seems to be behind the stickiness? What is it? Where is it? Is it thought? Thought + emotion? What? Is there a real self there?

If I've seen it and don't realize it, everything looks to me to be exactly the same. Nothing looks to be any different, e.g. I don't see any connectedness of things/beings/people, etc., or non-duality or any degree of separation between me and feelings or whatever

What? Is this what you are expecting? that you will be separated from your feelings? That is the exact opposite of what we are doing. We are looking at the fact that there is NO separation between you and your feelings. There isnt a you that is feeling the feeling, there is just the feeling.
You + Feeling = separation. 2 things. the feeling, and the you that is feeling the feeling.
Is there a You that is feeling the feeling? LOOK and see if its true.


What would non-duality look like? How would you know you were seeing non duality ?

This is not about having an experience. For example, if you did see the connectedness of things, it would NOT necessarily mean that you had seen that no self was true. It appears that you are thinking "I havent seen that no self is true because I dont see the connectedness of all things". Forget about the connectedness of things. Rather, look at all the things I have told you to look at, and see if they are true or not.

--lousy feelings still feel lousy, I still feel very connected to them, etc. Everything feels exactly the same as when I started this process (as I write this, I can feel annoyance coming up, as in I am annoyed that nothing's different--to take it out further, the what's the point of having done this if everything stays the same. I don't think I expected or expect an earth shattering experience, but it seems to me like something would be different even if only slightly.). Thanks for listening to me as I rant.

This is where you are confusing me. Before you started this process, you believed that you were thinking your thoughts, right? and now you said above,

I see things like thoughts without a person/doer, etc. behind them making them happen

So something is different. Before, there was a belief that you were thinking the thoughts. Now you dont believe that any more. Correct?

[GotIt]

Then LOOK at the self that seems to be behind the stickiness? What is it? Where is it? Is it thought? Thought + emotion? What? Is there a real self there?

It's a strong feeling of being there with the thought or something. It's hard to explain. It feels like there's something connected to the feeling.

What? Is this what you are expecting? that you will be separated from your feelings? That is the exact opposite of what we are doing. We are looking at the fact that there is NO separation between you and your feelings. There isnt a you that is feeling the feeling, there is just the feeling.
You + Feeling = separation. 2 things. the feeling, and the you that is feeling the feeling.
Is there a You that is feeling the feeling? LOOK and see if its true.

I guess I was thinking that the feelings wouldn't have as strong a hold on me or something.

Is there a You that is feeling the feeling?

It feels like there is something/the stickiness that is feeling a feeling or something.

What would non-duality look like? How would you know you were seeing non duality ?

I think it would look like non-separateness between people, me and others, etc. I'll keep looking at the things you've told me to look at to see if they are true or not.

So something is different. Before, there was a belief that you were thinking the thoughts. Now you dont believe that any more. Correct?

When I look, I see that thoughts come up on their own and leave on their own, but it feels different with feelings, as it feels like there's a "me" or something connected to them. It's harder to see that feelings are just thoughts.

[neeeel]

It's a strong feeling of being there with the thought or something. It's hard to explain. It feels like there's something connected to the feeling.

Ok, but IS there something connected to the feeling? You say it feels like there is, so look and see if there actually is, or if its a feeling without anyone doing it.

It feels like there is something/the stickiness that is feeling a feeling or something.

ok, but you need to look and see if there is something there?

When I look, I see that thoughts come up on their own and leave on their own, but it feels different with feelings, as it feels like there's a "me" or something connected to them. It's harder to see that feelings are just thoughts.

Feelings arent just thoughts, although they can be connected in that a thought can generate a feeling or a feeling can generate a thought.
Look at the feeling of there being a "you" connected to them. Is it true? Is there a you connected to them?

[GotIt]

In looking at feelings tonight, I was seeing that feelings can't be controlled, e.g. when I was thinking about some strong negative feelings I was having last week, I can't recreate those feelings. I can't make those feelings re-occur. Those strong feelings come when they come, they come on their own, and they go on their own.

I don't like the negative feelings and want them to go away, but there's nothing I can do to make them go away.

I'm seeing that "I" can't be connected to feelings or something.

Feelings arent just thoughts

This was very helpful.

It reminded me that feelings are different than thoughts, and I see that they aren't something that would have an "I" with them. Feelings aren't like thoughts, they feel different than thoughts, and/but they aren't something that has a "person"/a "me" with them or something.

[neeeel]

In looking at feelings tonight, I was seeing that feelings can't be controlled, e.g. when I was thinking about some strong negative feelings I was having last week, I can't recreate those feelings. I can't make those feelings re-occur. Those strong feelings come when they come, they come on their own, and they go on their own.

I don't like the negative feelings and want them to go away, but there's nothing I can do to make them go away.

I'm seeing that "I" can't be connected to feelings or something.

Ok good, so you see that thoughts and feelings just come and go on their own? They are connected in that a thought can bring on a feeling, or a feeling can bring on a thought, but theres no specific "I" entity behind any of them?

Who wants the negative feelings to go away? Is there an entity there that doesnt like the negative feelings? Or is it just a thought "I dont like these negative feelings"?

[neeeel]

by saying thoughts and feelings are connected, I rather mean that they can affect each other, not that they are really connected, or somehow the same, just to clarify

[GotIt]

Ok good, so you see that thoughts and feelings just come and go on their own? They are connected in that a thought can bring on a feeling, or a feeling can bring on a thought, but theres no specific "I" entity behind any of them?

Thoughts and feelings just come and go on their own.

Stole this from another post (http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... r&start=15):

"Watch your experiences over the next couple of days and respond to the following:
Does the experience happen with or without thoughts?
What happens to the experience when thoughts arise?
Where do the thoughts come from?
At what point is the I/ego/self engaged in the experience?"

Ok good, so you see that thoughts and feelings just come and go on their own? They are connected in that a thought can bring on a feeling, or a feeling can bring on a thought, but theres no specific "I" entity behind any of them?

What I see (and I want to look at this a lot more) is that things happen/experiences happen, then a label gets put on it (e.g. like, don't like, neutral reaction). From that labeling process a thought arises (don't like, she's a jerk, etc.) and then a feeling arises (don't like her). I don't know where the "self" comes into the process and want to look at: is there a self/I in the process or not, and where?

So...e.g.:

I see someone wearing a dress.

My brain labels the dress as ugly.
I have the thought: "That's an ugly dress."
I translate the thought into a feeling of: "I don't like her." which then translates into: "I wouldn't want to know her as she wears ugly dresses." and "She probably wears ugly clothes all the time." and "She's weird to dress that way.", and on and on with the story.
All of this from an original experience of seeing someone wearing a dress.

Is there an "I" in any of it? Where is the "I"? I need to look for the "I". Where does the "I" come in? Is there an "I"?

I think I also keep telling myself more and more stories to protect my "self": "I" don't wear ugly dresses. "I" would never dress like that, etc., etc.

Who wants the negative feelings to go away? Is there an entity there that doesnt like the negative feelings? Or is it just a thought "I dont like these negative feelings"?

Similar to what I say above, I think I tell myself stories to protect my "self". Me talking to myself: do "I" pick up negative thoughts/feelings? I think I grab on to things (thoughts/feelings) because I don't want to lose my always good/always right "self". The supposed "I" behind the: "I" would never wear an ugly dress like that. Questions for myself: Where is this "I" person? Do they exist? Does that "I" person exist? Do they exist as a separate (living, breathing, being and doing) entity?

by saying thoughts and feelings are connected, I rather mean that they can affect each other, not that they are really connected, or somehow the same, just to clarify

Understood.

[neeeel]

You say some good stuff in your last post, but first I want to point something out to you


You said -

Thoughts and feelings just come and go on their own.

And also-

I think I also keep telling myself more and more stories to protect my "self": "I" don't wear ugly dresses. "I" would never dress like that, etc., etc.

Would you agree that the stories you tell yourself are thoughts?

But you say that thoughts and feeling just come and go on their own

Does that mean that the stories just come and go on their own?

[neeeel]

What I see (and I want to look at this a lot more) is that things happen/experiences happen, then a label gets put on it (e.g. like, don't like, neutral reaction). From that labeling process a thought arises (don't like, she's a jerk, etc.) and then a feeling arises (don't like her). I don't know where the "self" comes into the process and want to look at: is there a self/I in the process or not, and where? So...e.g.:

I see someone wearing a dress.

My brain labels the dress as ugly.
I have the thought: "That's an ugly dress."
I translate the thought into a feeling of: "I don't like her." which then translates into: "I wouldn't want to know her as she wears ugly dresses." and "She probably wears ugly clothes all the time." and "She's weird to dress that way.", and on and on with the story.
All of this from an original experience of seeing someone wearing a dress.

this is good noticing. From simple direct experience( colours, shapes, sounds etc) to a full blown story involving multiple characters. How much of this story is true?
Compare the sights, colours, shapes, etc of the dress as you initially perceive it without thought.
With the afterthought "thats an ugly dress".

Is there an "I" in any of it? Where is the "I"? I need to look for the "I". Where does the "I" come in? Is there an "I"?

Are you doing any of the labelling and thoughts? Does the thought "thats an ugly dress" arise spontaneously and automatically?