Flying

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

Neither do I actually, but how can a gate be a particular point or moment in time or space if it's also 'gateless'?

True.

I did ask you this a while ago but do you feel now that you could say with a big fat Yes there is no self ?

I really do not want to be difficult, but I probably would say I am not a "big fat Yes"-person. Unless I am struck by a flash, I suppose. I already wanted to ask how I can know where I am in this process. The knowledge was there from the beginning but it certainly has become more real and practical, accessible. There is some relaxation. And it seems that there is an endless number of aspects to explore (e. g. the concept of time). I am just never sure how much I am staying within the cognitive realm. Any suggestion there?
All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. I really do not want to be difficult, but I probably would say I am not a "big fat Yes"-person. Unless I am struck by a flash, I suppose.

You're not being difficult :-). And I appreciate your answer.

. . I already wanted to ask how I can know where I am in this process. The knowledge was there from the beginning

Well, a good question to look at, if you really want to know, beyond conceptualising , would be how could an "I" know where it actually is?

This is not a stupid, nor academic question.

. The knowledge was there from the beginning but it certainly has become more real and practical, accessible. There is some relaxation. And it seems that there is an endless number of aspects to explore

Yes. The relaxation is good. And the spirit of inquiry.

. I am just never sure how much I am staying within the cognitive realm. Any suggestion there?

Again, literally, is there an entity like that that that stays within something? Take a look? Not just a muse. Not just a comfortable bit of speculation but a good lifting up of the rock, finally to see if this "I" is "there"?

Perhaps there's an aptitude and talent in the thought department anyway? So what? Flowers bloom. Thoughts happen



All the best

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

Well, a good question to look at, if you really want to know, beyond conceptualising , would be how could an "I" know where it actually is?
This is not a stupid, nor academic question.

Now I am lost. Of course again I fell into the trap. But: I cannot find "I" - how can "I" know anything?
Mmh. On the other hand - would there possibly be more relaxation to be experienced, for example?

. I am just never sure how much I am staying within the cognitive realm. Any suggestion there?

Again, literally, is there an entity like that that that stays within something? Take a look? Not just a muse. Not just a comfortable bit of speculation but a good lifting up of the rock, finally to see if this "I" is "there"?

Guilty. You really know how to ask the right questions. There is a tendency to just think things through. As funny as it's sounds : there is reluctance, it feels boring to look closely again, because "I" already know I will not find an "I"!
Still I check: nothing to be found. And the white cup exercise is getting very easy.

Perhaps there's an aptitude and talent in the thought department anyway? So what? Flowers bloom. Thoughts happen

Yes, I keep coming back to that. They still tend to take over sometimes, probably a bad habit :-(
All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. Now I am lost. Of course again I fell into the trap. But: I cannot find "I" - how can "I" know anything?
Mmh. On the other hand - would there possibly be more relaxation to be experienced, for example?

How could this be known without it actually happening?

You appear to be seeking or at least speculating about a particular experience?. (More gold at the end of the rainbow?). Perhaps you've heard or read something saying that there ought to be?

What you could do is notice the relaxation you mention. Have some quiet time to enjoy it where you don't have to be busy doing or thinking very much.

. I already wanted to ask how I can know where I am in this process?

Well, it's your process, nobody else's. Nobody else's measuring tape or checklist of attainments is to be trusted. Even your own attempts to measure where "you" are (presumably through a comparison of some sort) ...are they to be trusted?

This inquiry is about seeing that there is no self, at the same time as noticing how the illusion of self appears and how it works.

. . As funny as it's sounds : there is reluctance, it feels boring to look closely again, because "I" already know I will not find an "I"!

It's good to notice that reluctance. It may be resistance to that last step of noticing quite conclusively that there's no self.

. I keep coming back to that. They still tend to take over sometimes, probably a bad habit :-(

Thoughts can be useful too sometimes but thinking habitually seems very widespread.

There's always the possibility of noticing sensations in the body .for example, just noticing what feet are feeling , like that exercise we did a few weeks ago? As attention is is somewhere else thoughts may be less to the fore. The breath is another good one. Also, very much, walks in nature (this can be very helpful).

All the best

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,
well, that is a lot to take in. Thank you so much!:-)

. Now I am lost. Of course again I fell into the trap. But: I cannot find "I" - how can "I" know anything?
Mmh. On the other hand - would there possibly be more relaxation to be experienced, for example?

How could this be known without it actually happening?

You left my brain in knots with this.

You appear to be seeking or at least speculating about a particular experience?. (More gold at the end of the rainbow?). Perhaps you've heard or read something saying that there ought to be?

I am trying to get a handle (and maybe I shouldn’t) on the “big fat YES” you where asking about. What could that look like. Or what could produce it. The clarity that I suppose comes along with it.

What you could do is notice the relaxation you mention. Have some quiet time to enjoy it where you don't have to be busy doing or thinking very much.

Good point! So straightforward. Will do.

Well, it's your process, nobody else's. Nobody else's measuring tape or checklist of attainments is to be trusted. Even your own attempts to measure where "you" are (presumably through a comparison of some sort) ...are they to be trusted?

More knots. And the question "who" is trusting? I am dizzy.

This inquiry is about seeing that there is no self, at the same time as noticing how the illusion of self appears and how it works.

Makes sense.

. . As funny as it's sounds : there is reluctance, it feels boring to look closely again, because "I" already know I will not find an "I"!

It's good to notice that reluctance. It may be resistance to that last step of noticing quite conclusively that there's no self.

Thanks for the hint - will keep an eye on it.

There's always the possibility of noticing sensations in the body .for example, just noticing what feet are feeling , like that exercise we did a few weeks ago? As attention is is somewhere else thoughts may be less to the fore. The breath is another good one. Also, very much, walks in nature (this can be very helpful).

Thank you for the suggestions. Will do. Makes sense.

The knots need some more looking into, apologies for now.

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

Thanks for your reply. It is late now here in UK.

But apologies absolutely not needed.

I will post tomorrow

Jon

[Aguila]

Good morning, Jon!

Thanks for your reply. It is late now here in UK.

Thank you for letting me know!

. Now I am lost. Of course again I fell into the trap. But: I cannot find "I" - how can "I" know anything?
Mmh. On the other hand - would there possibly be more relaxation to be experienced, for example?

How could this be known without it actually happening?

Sorry, I just cannot make sense of this. Could you rephrase that for me, please? You mean that there actually must be relaxation before I can sense it?

. Well, it's your process, nobody else's. Nobody else's measuring tape or checklist of attainments is to be trusted. Even your own attempts to measure where "you" are (presumably through a comparison of some sort) ...are they to be trusted?

Well, me being the way I am: probably not. I just do not know what to trust. But is trust necessary? Maybe it is just a concept related to “I”. When I try to measure and/or trust, there is an “I” involved.
But then: where does the “big fat YES” come from? I guess it is just there - or it isn’t?

And yes: focusing on body sensations helps to reduce thinking. I found especially interesting that focusing on breath kind of puts "me" there: the world as seen from the breath perspective, somehow. Similar to focusing on the foot and finding "me" suddenly there instead of the head.

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

[quote] Could you rephrase that for me, please? You mean that there actually must be relaxation before I can sense it? [/quote]

I mean that it cannot be known how no self will be experienced. There can be speculation about this and sometimes this creates expectations of a particular type of experience. How can it be known if there would be more relaxation or not unless that were experienced? There are commentators and "teachers" who might tell you what you should expect but it's best to go by direct experience.

[quote]. But is trust necessary? Maybe it is just a concept related to “I”. When I try to measure and/or trust, there is an “I” involved.
But then: where does the “big fat YES” come from? I guess it is just there - or it isn’t? [/quote]

I'd say it's helpful to not trust anyone's words but your own experience.

The "big fat yes" is just a colorful way of asking if there is any doubt that there is no self? Is there?

You're right though, there either is or is not doubt.

[quote]. And yes: focusing on body sensations helps to reduce thinking. I found especially interesting that focusing on breath kind of puts "me" there: the world as seen from the breath perspective, somehow. Similar to focusing on the foot and finding "me" suddenly there instead of the head. [/quote]

This is good.

You may find that it is also worthwhile noticing your heart area. How it feels, waiting quietly. Noticing the silence or stillness.

Also, is it possible, right now, to feel positive ?

All the best.

(Sorry, for some reason the "quote" function failed to work)

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

I mean that it cannot be known how no self will be experienced. There can be speculation about this and sometimes this creates expectations of a particular type of experience. How can it be known if there would be more relaxation or not unless that were experienced? There are commentators and "teachers" who might tell you what you should expect but it's best to go by direct experience.

Ah, ok, so less expectations and more experience.

I'd say it's helpful to not trust anyone's words but your own experience.

The "big fat yes" is just a colorful way of asking if there is any doubt that there is no self? Is there?

You're right though, there either is or is not doubt.

Allright. Maybe I can say there is not really a cognitive doubt but somehow a bodily doubt? An uneasiness. Even a tendency to push it aside. Let me guess: worth watching?! ;-) Definitely interesting as well.

You may find that it is also worthwhile noticing your heart area. How it feels, waiting quietly. Noticing the silence or stillness.

Mmh. Will do. That area usually comes to my attention not because of stillness (I have never checked for that quality) but rather because of a kind of yearning sensation.

Also, is it possible, right now, to feel positive ?

Currently this is much easier than in other times. :-) Will watch out for it.

Wow, so much to look at, to study - what a curriculum! 🙂

All the best
Aguila

[Aguila]

Today we had a glorious spring day. Walking in the woods was beautiful - the more irritating it is, when again thoughts start coming. Enjoyment, irritation, thoughts - what a cocktail.
And yes. There can be a surprising stillness in the heart area - very nice and helpful! I am wondering, if it always was there???
What is weird: with all those studies I had to briefly stop - and it took me a moment to remember why I am doing all this. ;-)

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

What a great day! Yes it was glorious sunshine here too.

. Walking in the woods was beautiful - the more irritating it is, when again thoughts start coming. Enjoyment, irritation, thoughts - what a cocktail.

That's interesting. The first time you have mentioned irritation with thoughts in contrast to beauty and enjoyment.

. And yes. There can be a surprising stillness in the heart area - very nice and helpful! I am wondering, if it always was there???

Beautiful. What a lovely day.

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon

That's interesting. The first time you have mentioned irritation with thoughts in contrast to beauty and enjoyment.

Oh, I thought I had mentioned before the wish to turn of thoughts with a baseball bat. I do have a very ambiguous relationship with thinking. ;-)

More great weather to enjoy today! This time I wanted a bit more of exercise and briskly walked up a hill. Getting tired there was an impulse to slow down or stop, somehow associated with the thought “I am tired, I do not want to go on”. But I started watching where the impulse was generated, what feeling in the body triggered the thought of “tired”. I noticed that there were some ideas about what could be there (heaviness in the legs, pain in some muscle), but those sensations were not there ! Only some overall uneasiness so I just continued for quite a while. Interesting.

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

. , I thought I had mentioned before the wish to turn of thoughts with a baseball bat. I do have a very ambiguous relationship with thinking. ;-)

It was the rather sharp contrast you noticed between the beauty and then irritation and thinking. That back and forth pattern seemed new.

More great weather to enjoy today! This time I wanted a bit more of exercise and briskly walked up a hill. Getting tired there was an impulse to slow down or stop, somehow associated with the thought “I am tired, I do not want to go on”. But I started watching where the impulse was generated, what feeling in the body triggered the thought of “tired”. I noticed that there were some ideas about what could be there (heaviness in the legs, pain in some muscle), but those sensations were not there ! Only some overall uneasiness so I just continued for quite a while. Interesting.

Terrific. And mainly because this was not an intellectual speculation. It wasn't thoughts trying to work something out in the abstract, but instead real investigation, exploring,looking at sensations, noticing narrative.

Very good :-)

All the best

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

It was the rather sharp contrast you noticed between the beauty and then irritation and thinking. That back and forth pattern seemed new.

Ah, got it. Thank you for pointing it out.

Terrific. And mainly because this was not an intellectual speculation. It wasn't thoughts trying to work something out in the abstract, but instead real investigation, exploring,looking at sensations, noticing narrative.

Thanks for the encouragement.
Today’s investigation came early: the breakfast porridge was burned. The taste was obvious, though it looked normal. There was the thought “it is burned”. And the thought “that is a thought, a labelling”. I tried to peel off the name - or rather just tasted. Tasted the burned part, tried to find something else, the normal porridge taste, got lost in tasting somehow. The funny thing was another thought a bit later “where did the burned taste go???”. It had “disappeared” (and "I" couldn’t refrain from searching for it till I found it again). Really weird. Sensing and thinking really seem to have separate lives.

Have a great day!
Aguila

[Aguila]

Hi Jon,

just to share todays "event": Listening to a colleague I felt irritation rise. Yes, thoughts were associated, but I didn't want to bother to look closer at them. And without really trying, suddenly voice, words, content, thoughts seemed to be separate entities or streams just floating by. I have to admit I enjoyed it. :-)

Hope you are ok - have a good night!

Aguila