Trying to experience the nothing that I am

[Vivien]

Hi Philip,

I still haven't seen that "no-self" again as clearly as I did a few days ago but I'm starting to see that the only difference really is that thoughts in that moment weren't stating "no I am seeing."

Be careful not to chase a past experience. Experience is always anew, always afresh.

Probably you’ve heard the expression before: you cannot step into the same river twice. – this is literally true. You cannot have the same experience twice.

And it is that 'trying to find a self' that makes it seem less clear I think.

It’s not that the self is not findable. The self can be found, but it’s not what it’s believed to be.

The self / Philip shows up as images, thoughts stories, feelings, sensations. Philip shows up as certain characteristics, behaviours, familiar feelings and emotions, the feeling/sensations of looking out the eyes, facial expressions, a certain gait, the way you walk, postures, gestures, tone of voice, accent, etc.

These are welded together, and called me or Philip. It’s like putting a cloak over them, and calling them a unified living persona, Philip.

So in this way there is a self.

The question is:
Does Philip / self / me exist as a REAL autonomous, long-lasting, independent entity?
Or these regular and familiar traits, behaviours and functions are just taken the cloak of Philip / self /me?
Is Philip a real entity with its own agency? Or is it just a sum or collection of those patterns, behaviours and bodily functions?

So please be careful not to complicate this.
It’s very simple.

So there is a character called ‘Philip’, but does this character is more than a mirage in the desert?
Or all there is to Philip / me is the mirage?
But the mirage is there, the mirage is real, isn’t?
Just not what it seems to be.

Vivien

[PhilipJerzy]

Hi Vivien,

Be careful not to chase a past experience. Experience is always anew, always afresh.

Thank you for the reminder.

Does Philip / self / me exist as a REAL autonomous, long-lasting, independent entity?

It seems clear that Philip only exists as thoughts. These thoughts certainly sometimes give off the appearance of there being a long-lasting individual but they are only momentary thoughts. The thoughts can weave an incredible, elaborate story but that story has no reality outside of the thoughts.

Or these regular and familiar traits, behaviours and functions are just taken the cloak of Philip / self /me?

Yes these familiar things are just happening in reality with no story. Mentally the story is assembled about the things creating that illusion of Philip.

Is Philip a real entity with its own agency? Or is it just a sum or collection of those patterns, behaviours and bodily functions?

No the story of Philip does not have its own agency. Earlier I was reflecting on what I wrote yesterday about how it's becoming clearer that everything is happening by itself. And I suddenly realized that if there is no self how could "I" possibly do anything. It seemed almost silly to think that a story could make a decision or create a thought. Movements, actions, decisions, are all happening with no self doing them. A story of doing them comes after/about them but never births them. Those patterns. behaviours, and bodily functions all just happen, and the (assumed) familiarity of them makes them seem like me.

So there is a character called ‘Philip’, but does this character is more than a mirage in the desert?

Mirage is a cool word for it. I sometimes get the insight that there is just a vast NOTHING. No self at all. Things just happening in space. The desert of no self. In this desert of no self, this sea of nothingness, it's almost like - Of course there is an imagined self, there is no one to imagine it so there is no one to dispute that it is imagined. It just arises in nothingness to no one and boldly exists - as a thought, a collection of sensations etc, but not as a real being. Just a mirage in the desert.

Hahah you said not to overcomplicate it and I might have done just that. But it isn't really complicated. There is a character, a story, a thought about a thought, but that character has no reality beyond the thoughts about it. Same way Batman has no reality beyond the words as they are written, or pictures as they are seen.

Or all there is to Philip / me is the mirage?

All there is to Philip/me is the mirage - the thoughts. Imaginations. I can imagine the apple, but can never eat it. Hahah WOW all your past pointers are vividly clear now.

But the mirage is there, the mirage is real, isn’t?

Yes, the mirage is real. The thoughts ARE appearing. And like a real mirage, it can appear real until it is inspected and seen for what it is. Just a thought with no reality.

Thank you Vivien, it is a lot clearer now.

Lovingly,

Philip

[Vivien]

Hi Philip,

Hahah you said not to overcomplicate it and I might have done just that. But it isn't really complicated. There is a character, a story, a thought about a thought, but that character has no reality beyond the thoughts about it. Same way Batman has no reality beyond the words as they are written, or pictures as they are seen.

Yes. But the self / me doesn’t just manifest as a story. As well as the idea of Philip, there is also a visceral experience, which you have come to associate with Philip.
A real sense, that you recognised, and identify as, being Philip.
A visceral sense which is very familiar, the ‘sense of me’.

Please scan through the body and find this ‘sense of me’. It is there.

Would you say that you don’t exist at all?
Can you say with utter certainty that you don’t exist?
Or what can be said is that you are not what you imagined yourself to be, an enduring long-lasting being, called Philip?

Vivien

[PhilipJerzy]

Hi Vivien,

Yes. But the self / me doesn’t just manifest as a story. As well as the idea of Philip, there is also a visceral experience, which you have come to associate with Philip.
A real sense, that you recognised, and identify as, being Philip.
A visceral sense which is very familiar, the ‘sense of me’.

But this "visceral sense" is just a sensation in reality is it not? It is just identified, via thinking, to be me.

I would agree though that there are familiar sensations that arise identified as "this has always been me." There is one in particular in my chest that I have been working with for a couple of years now and that identification, at least right now, is pretty loose.

Please scan through the body and find this ‘sense of me’. It is there.

I asked this question all through the day and usually it pointed to that chest sensation, sometimes to the eyes and forehead area.

Would you say that you don’t exist at all?

The best way I can find to say it is that I only "seem" to exist. I am incredibly grateful for the day you pointed out the difference between "seems like/feels like/as if" and actually looking at what the experience is.

But thats exactly it, there is no "real" self. But there seems like there is at times, sometimes it feels like there is, sometimes it appears as though there is. That seeming is real enough, but that seeming is just a pointer to those familiar thoughts and sensations. Not an actual individual being.

Can you say with utter certainty that you don’t exist?

This is an interesting question. After these inquiries I'm not sure I could say anything with total certainty. The very thinking about this question makes a self appear to exist - thinking about the question or scanning the body for a self. But as I see that the thought arises "am I thinking about the question or aware of thinking happening about the question. Am I scanning the body or aware of focus moving through the body." And very fast that self that appears is clearly not me. It is still there seeming along but that self is not me.

It also feels weird to say that I don't exist. THE I doesn't exist, at least not how I thought it did. But there is existence. There is sight and sound and sensation arising constantly and it exists or at least it is perceived to exist. In that sense there is existence, there is just no I to experience it.

This morning and throughout the day today it was very clear. All these thoughts zooming along and none of them actually me. The character of Philip walking around doing his thing but none of it actually me. Just what is seen, just what is heard, just what is felt, just what is tasted, just what is smelled. There wasn't even much thought given to it today, it was just obvious in a sort of thoughtless way. Not constantly, but peacefully.

Or what can be said is that you are not what you imagined yourself to be, an enduring long-lasting being, called Philip?

Yes exactly this. I thought I was this guy trying to do things, trying to be enlightened, trying to make a career, or find love, or raise his dog, or drive his car. That "I" looked like this and felt like this and acted like that. But all that just arises in a given moment, and may appear as me, but it can never be me. It is only noticed. There is no Philip. No storage area that holds a real Philip, or his experiences. Certainly memories arise, as thoughts or as sensations stuck to ideas, but it is always as a imagination that Philip exists. There isn't one shred of Philip in reality.

Thanks Vivien, today felt very clear.

Gracefully,

Philip

[Vivien]

Hi Philip,

But this "visceral sense" is just a sensation in reality is it not? It is just identified, via thinking, to be me.

Bur any time when this identification is not seen to be for what it is, the sense of self seems to be something solid, something enduring, and real.

I would agree though that there are familiar sensations that arise identified as "this has always been me." There is one in particular in my chest that I have been working with for a couple of years now and that identification, at least right now, is pretty loose.

Yes, this is what I was referring to.

It also feels weird to say that I don't exist. THE I doesn't exist, at least not how I thought it did. But there is existence. There is sight and sound and sensation arising constantly and it exists or at least it is perceived to exist. In that sense there is existence, there is just no I to experience it.

Yes, to say that “I don’t exist” is a bit off.

Often, this phrase becomes a new belief on behalf of a self. The self can walk around proclaiming that “I don’t exit”.

But there is existence, there is ‘something’ that knows what is going on. This knowing is not separate from the known, and yet it is, knowing or aware-ing is happening. We can call it existence, am-ness, is-ness, beingness. It doesn’t really matter how we call it.

I cannot really say that I don’t exist, since I’m not dead yet. :) I am here. Always here, effortlessly. I cannot not be here. But what this is I cannot say. It’s not knowable. It’s an utter mystery.

There isn't one shred of Philip in reality.

So, can you say with 100% certainty that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding to an experiential recognition of there being no enduring independent self with volition as it thought to be?

Can you point to the moment when the shift happened?
How does the shift itself felt (when it happened)?

And how does it feel to see now that there isn’t one shred of Philip in reality?

Is there anything that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?

Vivien

[PhilipJerzy]

Hi Vivien,

But any time when this identification is not seen to be for what it is, the sense of self seems to be something solid, something enduring, and real.

Yes, it does "seem" to be solid. I guess the key is to notice whenever it seems solid and inquire into that. Or just notice that as part of what's arising.

So, can you say with 100% certainty that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding to an experiential recognition of there being no enduring independent self with volition as it thought to be?

Hahah I'm not sure I can say anything with 100% certainty. There was definitely an experiential recognition of there being no self. To say that the no self has no volition almost seems unnecessary to say. Like saying that the car that isn't in my room can't drive itself. Not only can it not drive itself but it doesn't exist, it's not present in the room. While there was that experience that isn't my predominant experience through the day but you've said many times that Yo-Yoing occurs for some time after it is seen.

However I see a big difference between the last time you asked this and this time. Last time I intellectually understood no self (which was intellectually understood as another self..) and experientially experienced experience (but that is three too many words for it). This time it has been seen. At this moment it is being thought about intellectually but the truth of that experience shines through, giving a different perspective. To talk about it at all makes it sound grander than it is. I can totally understand why "I" or anyone else would be caught up in expectations.

Can you point to the moment when the shift happened?

It became clear as I was asking the question "what is there that can identify itself as awareness." I hadn't looked at that pointer too much through the day so as I went to reply to it I really stopped and wanted to look. This whole process, it always felt like I wasn't quite looking hard enough or long enough or like I just couldn't quite bring myself to just look fully. Yes that is a story but that was arising throughout. This time I just kept looking at my air purifier, I didn't want to answer the question until I could answer the question experientially. I could sense that same "seeming to be unable to look fully" and I just stayed looking at the air purifier and suddenly it was just obvious that there was no awareness separate from what is seen. This whole time I was trying to replace the self with a higher self or different self, but in that moment it was clear there was nothing. Literally NO self. It's so clear and simple but it's like there are layers of thoughts and beliefs over it.

How does the shift itself felt (when it happened)?

Well it was quite a surprise. I really didn't expect to not exist at all. I thought I just misperceived "who" I was, and that I was actually a field of awareness or something. But there was just nothing. NOTHING. So weird. There was some sadness as well that came up with a story of "I have to say goodbye to a friend," and a bit of fear about just how empty it was. But those passed fairly quick. It's still weird just how there's really nothing aware-ing.

And how does it feel to see now that there isn’t one shred of Philip in reality?

Very neutral. Even more neutral than it was last time I answered this question. Today the story was very much identified with most of the day, but even with that there is so much lightness. When big emotion arises or stress, it's so quickly seen as thoughts and sensations that I'm aware of but aren't me. With this noticing - a lot of peace comes. There is a sense of noticing the story unfold instead of being the story. And so what unfolds doesn't feel so life threatening and urgent and dramatic. There is humour and lightness to things that felt tight and upsetting before.

In addition to all this - I work as a facilitator helping people inquire into their emotions and stories. Not usually looking so deep as we have here, but along these lines, noticing the thoughts as imaginations and feeling the sensations that come with them. As this has developed, especially the more Philip became illusory, the more clarity I have with that. There is such a deeper experiential understanding of what's going on and I can catch where people get stuck so much easier than before. It just seems so clear when someone is in a story, where before I would be stuck in their story as well (so to speak). So not only is there more peace in day to day life, my passion/side job has become a hundred times more enjoyable and the people I work with are leaving more clear and with more benefit than ever.

I'm extremely grateful for all of your help, pointers and dedication.

Is there anything that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?

There are certainly lot's of things I could look at, there is still lot's to explore and more clarity to be found. But what is really arising is the desire to just be with what has been found so far, to deepen with it and clarify what has already been seen. All day I just ask "is this me or am I aware of it" followed by "what is here that can identify as awareness." And it feels like that just wants to be stayed with till there are less things that are habitually identified with.

There doesn't seem to be anything in particular that is not clear. Just noticing the Yo-Yoing happening and looking for the "I" that seems to appear.

Thank you very much Vivien,

With all my love,

Philip :)

[Vivien]

Hi Philip,

Thank you for your replies :)

What we usually do at this stage of the process is to ask some final questions that I will show to other guides to see if there is anything that we might have missed and that my guiding was clear. Other guides might or might not have further questions for you.

Are you ready for these final questions?

Love,
Vivien

[PhilipJerzy]

Hi Vivien,

Sure, ready for these questions and any feedback I might get on the answers.

Love,

Philip

[Vivien]

Hi Philip,
Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked. There are some topics you probably wrote about in the last few days, but please write them about again, as if this were the first time talking about them.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Vivien

[PhilipJerzy]

Hi Vivien,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

In my experience there only ever "seems" to be a separate self. With a little bit of investigation there is no separate self happening in reality. No being that is living its separate life. There are thoughts and some sensations that are called "me" but they are only ever thought stories, not pointing towards anything real.

Was there ever?

Even this question would rely on a story. The past is just another thought, there is no current experience of the past. But to answer the question, no there was never a real self, just misunderstanding. It's not that there was a real self that was seen through or a real self that dissolved in light of the truth. There is simply nothing but real experience and stories about that experience.

2)2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

What I came to see repeatedly is that there is simply such a vast nothingness. And when something is experienced in that nothingness, well it is all that there is. And since it is all that there is there is nothing to dispute it. So in this large field of nothing (not literally a large field, nothing meaning nothing, literally non existence) when a thought appears saying "I exist" It is the only thing in that nothingness. There is no actual being to say "no that is just a thought" and so it is believed. On top of that, other thoughts appear referring to the "I" constantly and since it is never investigated it is "believed" in ignorance. I've come to see that even believe is too dense a word, it almost indicates there is someone to believe something. It is more like there is ignorance about the truth, there is no knowing of what is real and what isn't.

So when we investigate these thoughts and ideas we come to see more clearly what is going on. It is seen that thoughts are arising saying "I" but that they are not pointing anywhere real. As this is known more and more, deeper and deeper. When these thoughts arise in the nothingness, the knowing is present. And so there is no longer just a thought that is ignorantly believed to be true. There is an automatic recognition of the thought as just a thought.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

To be honest the past few days I Yo-Yo'd back into identification.. But even as I write that it is seen as a story. Who exists in order to Yo-Yo back and forth. Right now there is only the current experience. There might be thought stories about being identified or about how it was clearer before, but all these stories have nothing to do with the real experience now. The "me" character continuing to play itself out is observed but not truly "me."

And so it feels very light. Even in times of stress there is a deep peace noticed underneath the story of whatever is happening. There is constant relief, like if people disagree with "me" but it is seen that my "opinions" are just momentary thoughts and they are let go. There is humour when someone criticizes "me" and there is no one there to be criticized, just a diffusion of the tension and an ability to laugh at what is going on. There is even peace when there is anger or upset arising, because it is seen as arising and not "happening to me" and so it comes and goes peacefully.

As I said the other day, when it was first seen clearly that there was literally NO self, rather than a higher self or an being of awareness, there was fear, confusion, and sadness as well. But those are not present now.

When I started this dialogue I very much believed that the seeing of no self meant seeing that the STORY isn't me and that there is some higher self to identify with. For a long time identification would jump from idea to concept to thought. But I see now that all of those things are arising, identification is arising. But it is not arising in me or as me or to me. There can be no ME period.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Very interesting question. It 'seems' to indicate that the whole time looking was half hearted until you really look. Which is how it did 'seem.' There always 'seemed' to be a reluctance to fully look, and that may be a story but there was a sensation with that story that was noticed often.

When it was finally seen, I had a headache,I had to reply to the pointers for the day and one of the last questions was "what is there to identify as awareness." I hadn't really investigated that question thoroughly during the day so I sat down and thought I would just sit with it for a while. I didn't want to answer intellectually or skip it. And so I looked and looked and felt that reluctance but I didn't want to let Vivien or myself down haha. Then first I realized - ok there is nothing to identify as awareness. And then suddenly there was confusion and thoughts like "wait if there is no awareness then what is there that's aware of this air purifier in front of me?" and suddenly it was clear there was nobody that's aware of the air purifier. There is aware-ing but no aware-er.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Everything appears spontaneously. When there are two options and "I" have to make a decision, there can be thoughts about it for hours, or no thoughts about it, but the decision isn't made until it is. It just arises out of nowhere. My favourite experiment on this was trying to think of a random thought. The thought would say "ok random - Penguins." And then there would be thinking about penguins. But the original thought of penguins arose from nothing. In order for it to have been a real choice it would have had to have been already known and then chosen. But if it HAD been already known then it would have already been thought about and that thought would have been spontaneous. I guess there's no point trying to explain about how it's impossible... Thoughts, decisions, including movements and actions, they all happen spontaneously. There might be thinking about it and there might not be. In the morning thoughts say "get up get up get up" and the body does not get out of bed until it does.

The same goes for intention. Where does the idea come up to make an intention. It arises spontaneously outside of your choosing.

After noticing this for a while I also realized. WHO could make a choice? There is no one here so who could have free will. There is just unfolding and thoughts commenting on what is unfolding.

I haven't really inquired into what makes things happen. That just seems to be the spark of life. There just is existence.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

There was a particular realization a few weeks ago after worrying whether the next thought would be identified with or not. It was realized that there was no control over whether the next thought is believed or investigated.

The story "I'm not responsible for anything" sounds like it could easily be adopted as a belief and be harmful to continuing to look or harmful to the quality of our actions.

But beliefs aside, there is no real "I" to be responsible for anything and there is no ability to choose what to be responsible for or how to act responsibly. Again who exists in order to be responsible. There is a sensation and a story that arises saying "I must be responsible of continuing to look." But right now there is nothing like that happening in reality. Just the sight and sound of fingers tapping on a keyboard and sensations vibrating around.

6) Anything to add?

There still looks to be a long way to go before this all stabilizes. I very much welcome any additional pointers or ideas about what has been written here.

Thank you all for all you do.

Gracefully,

Philip :)

[Vivien]

Hi Philip,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to ask other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you. Also, I’m sending you a private message, so please watch out for it.

Vivien

[Vivien]

Hi Philip,

Other guides have no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being open and willing to look.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Please don’t forget that this is just a beginning. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of conditionings, which needs further looking to help them to dissolve. All sorts of old beliefs, emotions and feeling can come up to see them and feel them. Please don’t stop looking if you want things to deepen.

If something comes up and you don’t know how to deal with it, please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look.

Vivien