To be or not to be

[Katiebrown54]

Ok Tim

Let’s try again ...

So now, please again bring up the thought of this “me” who seeks to attain something through this process, LOOK closely, and answer my questions, one by one:

Can a non-existent thing attain anything?

If it is non existent nothing can not attain something. No not possible.


Is the “self”/“me”/“I” just a thought, or anything more than that?


The self, me or I actually doesn’t exist either. It is illusory and presents as a thought.


Can a thought think?

The thought itself, does not think. Thinking arises and subsides only.


Can a thought believe in something, or not believe?


Belief is a thought. No thought thinks. No thought can believe in anything.


Can a thought DO anything at all?

A thought appears and disappears but not by its own doing ... it just happens

[gondwana]

Very good.

If "I" is just a thought, and so cannot think, then what entity is thinking right now?

[Katiebrown54]

Tim, you ask

‘...What entity is thinking right now?’

Mmm...no one, no thing is thinking.

Question-
where do thoughts come from...

no where ? ... consciousness ??

[gondwana]

Can you decide or predict your next thought?

[Katiebrown54]

No

[Katiebrown54]

You can’t decide or predict your next thought since ‘you’ is non existent and so no one is home to determine what will arise and when. Thoughts arise if there own accord (but from where?)

[gondwana]

Indeed.

So there is no "doer" of thoughts.
Are thoughts simply experienced?
In the same uncontrollable way as distant sounds arriving from an undetermined source?

[Katiebrown54]

Tim you ask...

So there is no "doer" of thoughts.
Are thoughts simply experienced?
In the same uncontrollable way as distant sounds arriving from an undetermined source?


There is no doer of thoughts
Thoughts are just experienced without a person experiencing.
Yes...in the same way as Sounds are also heard without a hearer.

[gondwana]

There is no doer of thoughts

Then, close your eyes and look directly into your present experience now, and answer this:

Do not answer from memory or thought. LOOK.

Where is the one who currently "thinks" I have not 'got it' yet?
Where is the one who currently "thinks" I need to seek some kind of enlightenment?

Is there a one thinking this?

Or are these just random, meaningless thoughts which come up from nowhere without any control?

[Katiebrown54]

Where is the one who currently "thinks" I have not 'got it' yet?

...There is no one to think this...the mind, thought arises



Where is the one who currently "thinks" I need to seek some kind of enlightenment?

...Again there is no one who seeks and nothing to seek in reality



Is there a one thinking this?

...Direct experience shows up blank

Or are these just random, meaningless thoughts which come up from nowhere without any control?


These thoughts do come up from no place and without control however a stumbling block surrounds the ‘relevancy’ of such arising thoughts in a particular contexts or circumstances.

For example, a child is crying and ‘poor thing’ thought arises relevant to the situation
There is no thought ‘ I think I’ll buy an ice cream or what’s for dinner?’
A thought arises relevant to the little girl/event - how is this so if there are just random thoughts?
Do random thoughts arise relevant to the event by coincidence or what ...what does it mean ‘random’
Such thoughts look connected to the last thought and the one previous and to the circumstance - they seem to just appear but there is uncertainty given how interconnected thoughts events seem to be.
And where do they come from!

Can you please answer the question this time Tim?

[gondwana]

Is there a one thinking this?

...Direct experience shows up blank

There is your answer! The only answer we need for this entire process.

Here is a useful reminder:



To answer your question:

For example, a child is crying and ‘poor thing’ thought arises relevant to the situation
There is no thought ‘ I think I’ll buy an ice cream or what’s for dinner?’

In a word: Conditioning.

Biologically, and as an experienced mother, OF COURSE you are conditioned for this thought to arise in response to the perception received here!

- Sometimes thoughts can be totally random (my example of the thought that you have not yet ‘got it’).
- Sometimes thoughts are from conditioning (maybe, your conditioning predisposes you to self-doubt, causing you to loop thoughts of ‘I will never get it’. But there is NO self, so “self-doubt” conditioning is in error!)
- Sometimes thoughts are of a perception received, which is then filtered and modified by conditioning (baby crying -> motherly conditioning -> thought of ‘poor thing’).

What we are looking for, the whole point of any so-called ‘enlightenment’, is simply to become aware of the conditioning which is happening and see through it to what was really perceived, the real direct experience unfiltered.

For the baby crying, conditioning is appropriate anyway, so see it happen but no change needed.
For every time conditioning is to do with a ‘self’, we want to be aware of that and see past it.
That is ALL we are looking for here! It is not magic.

Don’t just take my word for it, LOOK and check it for yourself:

Spend the whole day watching your thoughts.
Keep a note with counts for each type of thought.
Count each time a thought occurs:
- whether it was triggered by a perception, filtered through conditioning
- whether it was just apparently today random
- whether it was maybe random and then modified by conditioning
Add up the counts at the end of the day, and tell me what you find!
How many times did the ‘self’ construct filter it?

Such thoughts look connected to the last thought and the one previous and to the circumstance

Yes. This is EXACTLY what thoughts do.

Thoughts either spawn from other thoughts (chains of thoughts)
Or thoughts spawn from a perception/stimulus (circumstance)

What we are looking for is to become completely aware of the conditioning they filter through on the way.

The idea of a “self” that can be emotionally hurt/wounded/offended/afraid/inadequate/etc is simply an imaginary concept leading to incorrect conditioning being embedded.

[Katiebrown54]

Thanks Tim
Going to sit with your last msg and see what shows up and get back to you.

In the meantime...can you please answer
...who or what is being conditioned...please don’t tell me conditioning is just happening!! It must be impregnated on to something otherwise specific filters which filter specific experience wouldn’t do its thing etc?

[Katiebrown54]

On the mind level...Isnt it convenient that the answer is in ‘blank?’ What or who could argue with this?

There have been numerous experiences of blank or no self which ironically, because they were not ‘labelled’ as anything, were determined as ‘not seeing.’ There has been seeing but of nothing...nothing happening, nothing judging nothing and nothing seeing behaviour thoughts as more nothing. “It’s all to do about nothing.”

What does ‘one do’ with this conclusion ...nothing?
Must say it seems so ridiculous that during this whole process there was no conviction that there could be seeing happening when all along seeing saw nothing. So perhaps nothing was seen? If that’s the case, who or what is to say what enlightenment, seeing, is...all to do about nothing.

[Katiebrown54]

Sorry Tim...there’s a need to keep ranting on ...re: conditioning?

Doesnt conditioning just come down to not one thought ‘stacked’on top of another to form a story line ?

You explain that thoughts arise via randomness and through conditioning ..,etc
So then, to break it down, if conditioning is a pile of thoughts one after the other to form the story line, then some thoughts which appear through conditioning are just thoughts conceptualised?
If so, It still doesn’t explain how some thoughts seem to be more relevant pertinent to particular situations than others - how can that be?
Confused how this happens, if it is conditioning which are also just thoughts - are these just ‘special’ thoughts boxed together and then labelled conditioning? And again, who or what is conditioned...the mind which are just thoughts!

Lost....,!!!

[gondwana]

...who or what is being conditioned...please don’t tell me conditioning is just happening!! It must be impregnated on to something otherwise specific filters which filter specific experience wouldn’t do its thing etc?

You have not tried any of the looking exercises I gave you. It is pointless me giving the answers.

As stated the entire way through, this can only be SEEN, not explained. It is beyond conceptual thought, from which all language is derived.

Go look into your own experience, watch the process, and LOOK for WHAT is being conditioned.

Tell me what you find!