Looking for a guide

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Kay,

I noticed that thoughts kept emerging, one after another. It was almost a shower, more than a river, in the sense that they would run after each other, and I only glimpsed at the gap. Some thoughts carried me with them, in the sense that there would be a coherent chain, until I remembered to just watch them and let them go.

Love,

Val

[forgetmenot]

Hi Val,

I would like you to do the exercise for another day. Dont worry about looking for the gap, just watch the thoughts like you watch clouds passing in the sky, or leaves floating down a stream. Just notice how one follows the other. Let me know how you go and what you noticed.

With love, Kay

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Kay,

I have continued with the exercise. Thoughts just come and go, one following the other, sometimes connected sometimes completely random. That's the experience so far!
Love,
Val

[forgetmenot]

Hi Val,

Lovely!

Okay, so let's have a closer look at thought.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Where are they coming from and going to?

Can you predict your next thought?
Can you push away any thought?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to control any thoughts?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

With love, Kay

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Kay,

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No

Where are they coming from and going to?

From the unconscious mind into the conscious mind. The thoughts that I am having are 'mine' in the sense that they are not appearing in someone else's mind.

Can you predict your next thought?

No

Can you push away any thought?

Yes. If I become aware of the thought I can divert my attention i.e. to sounds around me, the breathing etc.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

I can stop a story.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No, I wish!

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, but you can watch them and stop them in their tracks - e.g. there may be a thought pattern, one thought followed by another thought and they both appear together. If you are aware of the first one, you can divert the attention at that point.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I can choose to think a positively, and a positive thought will appear. I can't choose what thought, but usually a place I like, or a nice memory from the past.

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

Only to the extent above, as far as I have experienced it.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

You can stop the story, but preventing 'I' from appearing - I haven't experienced that.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

In the sense you are describing, yes of course, that's another thought.

Love,
Val

[forgetmenot]

Hey Val,

Where are they coming from and going to?

From the unconscious mind into the conscious mind. The thoughts that I am having are 'mine' in the sense that they are not appearing in someone else's mind.

And while watching thought did you actually see this unconscious mind? Where is it located exactly and what does it look like? Did you actually see a conscious mind? like. Where in actual experience is the unconscious and conscious mind exactly?

What is the AE of “my mind”? What does that actually point to? Does if point to thought, smell, taste, colour, sensation or sound?

Can you predict your next thought?

No

Can you predict the thought after the next thought? Can you predict the 8th thought after the initial thought?

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

I can stop a story.

You did not answer the question. Can you stop a THOUGHT, not a story, in the middle? Where does one thought begin and another end? How is it known that the thought has been stopped in the middle; because another thought said so?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, but you can watch them and stop them in their tracks - e.g. there may be a thought pattern, one thought followed by another thought and they both appear together. If you are aware of the first one, you can divert the attention at that point.

How exactly do you choose to divert the attention? Where do you go to choose a thought that tells you how and where to divert your attention? Where is this pool of thoughts located exactly, and then how do you choose a specific thought from that pool to be the thought that directs you to divert your attention - all before the second thought appears?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I can choose to think a positively, and a positive thought will appear. I can't choose what thought, but usually a place I like, or a nice memory from the past.

And how exactly do you retrieve these ‘positive’ thoughts? Where do you go to find these positive thoughts to bring them to the forefront of the mind to think them? And where are 'memories' actually stored? Is there a storage system somewhere?

And is not “I can choose to think positively” just another appearing thought?

Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them and then control them?

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

Only to the extent above, as far as I have experienced it.

Whatever you do now, please don’t think of a pink elephant. No…don’t think of a pink elephant! Stop that thought before it appears! Choose how much of that thought you are going to have/see and then in that exact moment, before the thought is complete, I want you divert your attention to something other than a pink elephant.
How did you go?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

You can stop the story, but preventing 'I' from appearing - I haven't experienced that.

The question is, is it possible to prevent a thought, not a story, from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

In the sense you are describing, yes of course, that's another thought.

Is there any other "sense"/way? Without a thought telling you that thoughts are in some sort of organised sequence, how would you know that they are?


If thoughts were expressed via the tweeting of birds or an unknown language, how would you know they were in some organised sequence and how would you know what they meant? What meaning is given to thoughts are only just thoughts about thoughts.

With love, Kay

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Kay,

And while watching thought did you actually see this unconscious mind? Where is it located exactly and what does it look like? Did you actually see a conscious mind? like. Where in actual experience is the unconscious and conscious mind exactly?

No, I cannot see mind. In AE it would be a thought as I can't feel it with the other senses, the only thing I can feel e.g. if I had a headache, is the brain.But I wouldn't argue that the mind doesn't exist. I don't see, smell, taste, colour, or sense all the meteorites in the space or anti-matter, but they still exist.

What is the AE of “my mind”? What does that actually point to? Does if point to thought, smell, taste, colour, sensation or sound?

Thought.

Can you predict the thought after the next thought? Can you predict the 8th thought after the initial thought?

No.

Can you stop a THOUGHT, not a story, in the middle? Where does one thought begin and another end? How is it known that the thought has been stopped in the middle; because another thought said so?

No, as I am aware of the stopping because I'd have a thought about another thought.

How exactly do you choose to divert the attention?

There's an agency that seems coherent, a will. But if I focus on them I cannot see their existence according to AE, if not that they are thoughts.

Where do you go to choose a thought that tells you how and where to divert your attention?

I don't know.

Where is this pool of thoughts located exactly, and then how do you choose a specific thought from that pool to be the thought that directs you to divert your attention - all before the second thought appears?

My stock answer would be the unconscious mind. In AE (smell, taste, sight, hearing, sensation, thought), I wouldn't know.

And how exactly do you retrieve these ‘positive’ thoughts?

Again, I wouldn't know in AE. I also don't know that my blood is moving, but it does, so the only conclusion I can make is that it is not directly known by the senses.

Where do you go to find these positive thoughts to bring them to the forefront of the mind to think them? And where are 'memories' actually stored? Is there a storage system somewhere?

I don't know in AE - as before, I don't have awareness of the inner workings of my mind, or the physical brain. But I'd bring the same point, that I don't have AE of the inner workings of my digestive system.

And is not “I can choose to think positively” just another appearing thought?

Yes it is.

Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number?

It appeared.

Why not the previous number, or the next one?

I don't know.

Do you know? If not, why don’t you know?

Because I am not aware of the choosing.

If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them and then control them?

I didn't say there's a thinker, but that thoughts are produced by my mind. and by 'my' I mean the brain I am physically equipped with, which is different from yours or any other, hence unique thoughts etc. The heart beats, but there's no beater.

Whatever you do now, please don’t think of a pink elephant. No…don’t think of a pink elephant! Stop that thought before it appears!

As I read the words, the image of the elephant appeared. That's a faculty of understanding language, words are symbols and they trigger thoughts in the form of images and sounds. My elephant is different from yours though.

Choose how much of that thought you are going to have/see and then in that exact moment, before the thought is complete, I want you divert your attention to something other than a pink elephant.
How did you go?

I can't choose what to see in the exact moment, nor divert before the thought is complete - diverting is another thought.

The question is, is it possible to prevent a thought, not a story, from appearing?

No.

Is there any other "sense"/way? Without a thought telling you that thoughts are in some sort of organised sequence, how would you know that they are?

I wouldn't.

If thoughts were expressed via the tweeting of birds or an unknown language, how would you know they were in some organised sequence and how would you know what they meant? What meaning is given to thoughts are only just thoughts about thoughts.

Yes, meaning is thought. There's thinking activity, alongside internal (breathing, heart-beating etc.) and external activity (senses).

Love,

Val

[forgetmenot]

Hi Val,

You are not looking. You are answering from thoughts. For example:-

And while watching thought did you actually see this unconscious mind? Where is it located exactly and what does it look like? Did you actually see a conscious mind? like. Where in actual experience is the unconscious and conscious mind exactly?

No, I cannot see mind. In AE it would be a thought as I can't feel it with the other senses, the only thing I can feel e.g. if I had a headache, is the brain.But I wouldn't argue that the mind doesn't exist. I don't see, smell, taste, colour, or sense all the meteorites in the space or anti-matter, but they still exist.

What is the AE of "headache"?
What is the AE of "brain"? Can you actually see a brain?

How is it known the "meteorites in the space, anti-matter" still exist?
In your direct/actual experience right now, where are "meteorites in space" and "anti-matter"? Are they appearing as colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought?


Shifting from thinking to looking can be frustrating and require some practice. Thoughts are the "wrong tool" to do this inquiry. This is about noticing what can be found in your immediate/direct/actual experience, noticing what's going on here now and describing what can be found.

The point of breaking down activities into AE in the beginning of our exploration was to show you how to LOOK. To show you how to notice what actually IS as opposed to what thought says is. Unless you are willing to start to look we are going to go round in circles and get absolutely nowhere in this exploration.

We will come back to thought, as you have to start to look beyond what thought says is. We will try it another way.


Close your eyes. With eyes closed, there is the experience of 'black(ness)'. There may a bright light, a red glow, sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - it really doesn't matter about the specifics. We are just noticing ‘black(ness)’.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'black(ness)'?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'black(ness)'?
3) Can what is seeing the ‘black(ness)’ be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is ‘seeing’ the ‘black(ness)’?
What do you find?

Is there anything that is witnessing the colour labelled ‘black(ness)’? Or is there just 'black(ness)' to be found?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘seeing’ end and colour labelled 'black(ness)' begin? Can a dividing line between ‘seeing’ and colour be found? Or is there just seeing/colour?

Can a 'see-er' ever be found in 'what is being seen' ie AE colour?

If that is all, and no INHERENT SEE-ER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

With love, Kay

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Kay,

OK, let's try again!

What is the AE of "headache"?

Pain in the head.
What is the AE of "brain"? Can you actually see a brain?
[/color]
How is it known the "meteorites in the space, anti-matter" still exist?
In your direct/actual experience right now, where are "meteorites in space" and "anti-matter"? Are they appearing as colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought?


Shifting from thinking to looking can be frustrating and require some practice. Thoughts are the "wrong tool" to do this inquiry. This is about noticing what can be found in your immediate/direct/actual experience, noticing what's going on here now and describing what can be found.

The point of breaking down activities into AE in the beginning of our exploration was to show you how to LOOK. To show you how to notice what actually IS as opposed to what thought says is. Unless you are willing to start to look we are going to go round in circles and get absolutely nowhere in this exploration.

We will come back to thought, as you have to start to look beyond what thought says is. We will try it another way.


Close your eyes. With eyes closed, there is the experience of 'black(ness)'. There may a bright light, a red glow, sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - it really doesn't matter about the specifics. We are just noticing ‘black(ness)’.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'black(ness)'?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'black(ness)'?
3) Can what is seeing the ‘black(ness)’ be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is ‘seeing’ the ‘black(ness)’?
What do you find?

Is there anything that is witnessing the colour labelled ‘black(ness)’? Or is there just 'black(ness)' to be found?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘seeing’ end and colour labelled 'black(ness)' begin? Can a dividing line between ‘seeing’ and colour be found? Or is there just seeing/colour?

Can a 'see-er' ever be found in 'what is being seen' ie AE colour?

If that is all, and no INHERENT SEE-ER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

With love, Kay
[/quote]

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Kay,

OK, let's try again!

What is the AE of "headache"?

A painful sensation inside the head.

What is the AE of "brain"? Can you actually see a brain?

No. Brain is a concept, the AE would be its functions, but I only know that through thought (as knowledge coming from thought).

How is it known the "meteorites in the space, anti-matter" still exist?

It's not something directly seen, touched, smelt, tasted. It's something thought.

In your direct/actual experience right now, where are "meteorites in space" and "anti-matter"? Are they appearing as colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought?

There's no AE of them.

Shifting from thinking to looking can be frustrating and require some practice. Thoughts are the "wrong tool" to do this inquiry.
The point of breaking down activities into AE in the beginning of our exploration was to show you how to LOOK. To show you how to notice what actually IS as opposed to what thought says is. Unless you are willing to start to look we are going to go round in circles and get absolutely nowhere in this exploration.

This is helpful, I didn't see it that way.

With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'black(ness)'?

yes.

Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'black(ness)'?

No.

Can what is seeing the ‘black(ness)’ be found?

No, and seeing blackness cannot be avoided either.

Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is ‘seeing’ the ‘black(ness)’?

No, I can't see my eyes, and by the same token I cannot see an 'I'. But how is this different from, say, touching the keyboard. The touch sensation is smoothness, but I CAN see the finger touching the keyboard. It's just that the eyes are in their sockets.

Is there anything that is witnessing the colour labelled ‘black(ness)’? Or is there just 'black(ness)' to be found?

What's the difference between witnessing and being aware? There's awareness of blackness.

Look very carefully. Where does ‘seeing’ end and colour labelled 'black(ness)' begin? Can a dividing line between ‘seeing’ and colour be found? Or is there just seeing/colour?

No dividing line, as I said earlier, if I shut my eyes I cannot avoid seeing blackness.

Can a 'see-er' ever be found in 'what is being seen' ie AE colour?

The colour cannot be avoided being perceived. There's awareness in what is being seen, or I wouldn't know I see blackness?

If that is all, and no INHERENT SEE-ER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Yes, there's no solid entity, there's the perception of blackness an the thought 'this is blackness', that's all there is!!

With love,

Val

[forgetmenot]

Hello Val,

So that the posts don't become too long and overwhelming, I am going to split it in two and just address the first half now.

What is the AE of "headache"?

A painful sensation inside the head.

How is it known that the sensation is painful?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is “painful”? Or is it a thought that suggest the sensation is “painful”?


Let’s examine the idea of a head and the solidity of a head.

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear about a head and finger, just notice what is actually present.

Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head and a story about a finger pressing down on a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Again, ignore ALL thoughts and ‘mental’ images that appear about head and finger, just notice what is actually present.

Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

What is the AE of "brain"? Can you actually see a brain?

No. Brain is a concept, the AE would be its functions, but I only know that through thought (as knowledge coming from thought).

Yes, the brain is a concept. Since the brain is a concept ie a thought/idea, then how can it have functions?
Does a brain (which is simply the AE of thought) smell, think, see, hear, feel or taste?

Thought doesn't have any knowledge. Thought knows nothing. Thought is not an entity that has the capacity to know anything. Knowing ABOUT something is thought while the knowing AS (the appearance) is direct/actual experience. What IS, is known directly because 'you' are aware of it.

Do you need thought to tell you when a smell appears, or when sound appears, or when colour appears, or when sensation appears, or when taste appears or even when a thought appears? Or are they known without thought?

How is it known the "meteorites in the space, anti-matter" still exist?
It's not something directly seen, touched, smelt, tasted. It's something thought.
In your direct/actual experience right now, where are "meteorites in space" and "anti-matter"? Are they appearing as colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought?

There's no AE of them.

Exactly! So the AE of "meteorites in the space, anti-matter" is thought. There are thoughts ABOUT "meteorites in the space, anti-matter", however that thought only points to more thought, it does not point to actual experience of anything but thought.
Can you see this?

With love, Kay

[elliphantmoo]

How is it known that the sensation is painful?

Because it feels that way and to the extreme, it's before any thought. e.g. finger on a flame.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is “painful”? Or is it a thought that suggest the sensation is “painful”?

It could be labelled in all sorts of ways, but there remains a sensation that is unpleasant or pleasant. The body reacts to it immediately.

Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head and a story about a finger pressing down on a head?

A sensation.

Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?

Just sensations.

And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

There's a thought because I feel the pressure in the middle.

What is the AE of "brain"? Can you actually see a brain?

No AE of "brain" as an entity.

Since the brain is a concept ie a thought/idea, then how can it have functions?

"it" can't in that sense.

Does a brain (which is simply the AE of thought) smell, think, see, hear, feel or taste?

No, but we attribute those to the brain.

Do you need thought to tell you when a smell appears, or when sound appears, or when colour appears, or when sensation appears, or when taste appears or even when a thought appears? Or are they known without thought?

No, I don't need thought, they are unmediated perceptions.

Can you see this?

Yes, that I can see.

With love, Val

[forgetmenot]

Hello Val,

How is it known that the sensation is painful?

Because it feels that way and to the extreme, it's before any thought. e.g. finger on a flame.

As soon as you use the word ‘because’, it tells me you aren’t LOOKING at actual experience but you are using thought.

I want you to LOOK at my questions as if you were a baby. Babies have no language.

Without thought, how is it known that the sensation is painful?

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is “painful”? Or is it a thought that suggest the sensation is “painful”?

It could be labelled in all sorts of ways, but there remains a sensation that is unpleasant or pleasant. The body reacts to it immediately.

And what labels sensation “unpleasant” or “pleasant”? Without those labels what is simply there?

Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head and a story about a finger pressing down on a head?

A sensation.

Yes, it is simply a sensation which thought then overlays with a story ABOUT it being ‘pressure’ coming from a finger being applied to a head!

I would like you to point where you think your face is.
What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?

Just sensations.

Lovely, yes.

So now press a finger to various parts of the ‘body’ and tell me what you find.

And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

There's a thought because I feel the pressure in the middle.

Are you saying that there is a thought in the ‘middle’ and the thought is causing pressure? If so please LOOK again! How do you know it’s a thought? Can you see the thought? How does a thought cause pressure?

Is there anything between the pressure points, or is it simply a thought that points to the pressure points and says there is something in between?

What is the AE of "brain"? Can you actually see a brain?

No AE of "brain" as an entity.

No, no AE of a “brain”. The AE of “brain” is the AE of thought.

Since the brain is a concept ie a thought/idea, then how can it have functions?

"it" can't in that sense.

In what “sense”? You can’t have it both ways where there is a brain in one sense but there isn’t in another. Just like you can’t be a separate self in once sense but not in another!

Does a brain (which is simply the AE of thought) smell, think, see, hear, feel or taste?

No, but we attribute those to the brain.

Where is this “we” that “attributes those to the brain”?

Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

Do you need thought to tell you when a smell appears, or when sound appears, or when colour appears, or when sensation appears, or when taste appears or even when a thought appears? Or are they known without thought?

No, I don't need thought, they are unmediated perceptions.

Great, that is what I want you to notice, not what thought says about the unmediated perceptions, but what your direct experience is without thought describing what they are.

With love, Kay

[elliphantmoo]

Hello Val,

As soon as you use the word ‘because’, it tells me you aren’t LOOKING at actual experience but you are using thought.

I want you to LOOK at my questions as if you were a baby. Babies have no language.

Without thought, how is it known that the sensation is painful?

I cry, I move away.Basically, there's an instinctive adverse reaction.

And what labels sensation “unpleasant” or “pleasant”?

Thought.

Without those labels what is simply there?

A sensation that you want to stop / move away from.

Yes, it is simply a sensation which thought then overlays with a story ABOUT it being ‘pressure’ coming from a finger being applied to a head!

What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

Do you mean as if I was looking from the finger, if I was behind the finger or what do I see from where I am now? If the former, I'd say I see a face, or rather in AE a shape and colour.

So now press a finger to various parts of the ‘body’ and tell me what you find.

I find pressure. The sensation of pressure.

Are you saying that there is a thought in the ‘middle’ and the thought is causing pressure? If so please LOOK again! Is there anything between the pressure points, or is it simply a thought that points to the pressure points and says there is something in between?

No, I am saying, if I put pressure on the head from two opposite points, the sensation of pressure goes from one point to the other, Then the thought 'appears' there's something in the middle the two fingers.

How do you know it’s a thought? Can you see the thought? How does a thought cause pressure?

The thought doesn't cause pressure, there's a sensation of pressure. I know it's a thought because I hear a voice in my head saying 'there's something in the middle'

Where is this “we” that “attributes those to the brain”?

I mean humans. I could have said 'I'. So basically thinking, thoughts attribute those functions to the brain as concept.

Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

So the sensation of myself re. location is far more fuzzy then if I look at myself in the mirror, there are parts in the body I don't feel, particularly if there's no pressure e.g. no skin on the chair. The trouble is if I point with the finger thought appears immediately, and guides my finger bang in front of the face.

With love,

Val

[forgetmenot]

Hello Val,

Without thought, how is it known that the sensation is painful?

I cry, I move away.Basically, there's an instinctive adverse reaction.

Without thought it cannot possibly be known that the sensation is painful! It is simply a sensation which thought then describes as painful.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is painful? No, it is thought that suggests that the sensation is intense/painful and something that needs to be gotten away from!


The label ‘painful’ is AE of thought and not the AE of painful
The sensation labelled ‘painful’ is AE of sensation and not the AE of painful
The image labelled as ‘body/me’ is AE of colour and not the AE of painful.
So the AE of ‘painful’ is thought. Thought points to the sensation and labels it painful.
Can you see this?

And what labels sensation “unpleasant” or “pleasant”?

Thought.

Yes, exactly, it is simply an appearing thought. If thoughts were expressed via the tweeting of birds or an unknown language, how would you know what they meant? What meaning is given to thoughts are only just thoughts about thoughts.

Without those labels what is simply there?

A sensation that you want to stop / move away from.

Where is the ‘you’ that is in the sensation itself and wants to move away from it? I want you to look at the sensation very carefully and tell me where you are found in the sensation and if you can find anyone/anything in the sensation or behind the sensation.

I would like you to point where you think your face is. What do you see? You are now looking inwards – turning the direction of your attention round 180˚ from the objects out there to you the Subject, to the place you are looking out of. Do you see your face? Do you see anything at all there - any colour or shape, any movement?

Do you mean as if I was looking from the finger, if I was behind the finger or what do I see from where I am now? If the former, I'd say I see a face, or rather in AE a shape and colour.

So now press a finger to various parts of the ‘body’ and tell me what you find.

I find pressure.
The sensation of pressure.

It is simply sensation. Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is pressure?
What is it exactly that labels the sensation "pressure"?

Thought tries to describe the raw experience of sound, colour, taste, smell, sensation and even thoughts.

Describe to me, as if I was blind, the colour red.
Describe to me, as if I was deaf, the sound ‘waves crashing against the shoreline’.
Describe to me taste labelled ‘ toast’. Not what toast is made from, but the taste ‘toast’ itself.
Can you describe raw experience at all?

Where is this “we” that “attributes those to the brain”?

I mean humans. I could have said 'I'. So basically thinking, thoughts attribute those functions to the brain as concept.

Yes, and that is a lovely thought story. Does it have any basis in actual experience?

Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

So the sensation of myself re. location is far more fuzzy then if I look at myself in the mirror, there are parts in the body I don't feel, particularly if there's no pressure e.g. no skin on the chair. The trouble is if I point with the finger

No, I don’t want you to look in the mirror, I just want you to close your eyes and point to where you think you are in the body and then tell me where you are pointing,

With love, Kay